breid1970 327 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Ok, so there is a prepper I talk to once in a blue moon. He said he recently purchased a Romanian screw build AKM. I corrected him and said "A rivet build right?" I was wrong. Its a screw build. Is that even safe? Seriously? Wouldn't you always be checking to make sure that your screws are tight? It just doesn't seem safe or even realistic. Edited September 7, 2015 by reid17 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Lots of arguments about screw builds. You can read pages of it over at ackfiles. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Yup, lots of debate about the subject. It involves drilling and tapping all of the components to accept screws and then praying that the screws don't back out. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 It's a hold over from when parts kits were cheap and plentiful and knowledge was scarce. There might still be people doing it out of ignorance or shear laziness but it is definitely not recommended. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Properly done, a screw build is just fine. I've done them. I use high strength loctite on all screws after test firing. I thoroughly degrease, loctite all screws, then reassemble. My 1917A1 watercooled I used to have is a screw build and has had thousands of rounds through it, as has my AK build. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 As long as it head spaced and they didn't get crazy about drilling the holes over sized and tapping I think I'd just pull the barrel and rivet it properly. The whole process of riveting isn't nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zagumennyyilya 51 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 A lot of Times guys will torque the screw and weld the cap so it will not back out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Red loctite? Never seen one. Sounds like a fun project but not very dependable. It would suck to have an AK that you have to constantly inspect like you do an old harley. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Mine's stayed tight. NEVER had to tighten one screw. Done right, it's fine. Like I said, even my beltfed was fine as a screw build. Hell, my Ferret50 has allen screws in the upper receiver, and it a 50BMG for crap's sake. Scoff if you want, I have the proof within arms reach. We now return to our regularly scheduled baseless opinions. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) I don't think the million's of factory built AK's are baseless, I also don't think if done correctly a screw build is just going to fall apart for a recreational shooter. I do feel rivits provide better clamping force not to mention the swell neck rivet locations that mechanically lock the receiver and trunion. I just finished de-milling a PSL kit yesterday, I've heard a lot of people piss and moan about how hard the barrel pin and barrel are to press out but mine went relatively easy. What did shock me was what it took to remove the trunion rivets. Typically, I drill the centers and knock them out with a punch, in this case it took me almost as long to remove the four small rivets as it did to remove the barrel, the long rivet was another bugger. Note on the PSL trunion pictured, one of the short rivets on each side and the long rivet are swell neck. Edited September 7, 2015 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 I won't call a screw build junk but I want my AKs built to spec. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Let's not forget that "mil spec" = built by lowest bidder 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heartbreaker 1,085 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Let's not forget that "mil spec" = built by lowest bidder 'Zactly. See below. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Rivet build > Screw buid 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 Rivet build > Screw buid There is a reason airplanes are built with rivets. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Back around 2003, I built a few AMD-65s on parts kits from Centerfire Systems when they were $79. The first one was on a Vulcan receiver and three more were on Tapco 80% flat AK receivers that you had to bend yourself and weld the rails into. All were screw builds (using grade 8 hex screws) and all but the Vulcan worked just fine. The Vulcan receiver had no hardening around the axis pin holes and the rivet / screw holes didn't match the trunnion holes. I end up scraping that one. I would have preferred to use rivets, but the screws worked just fine. All are still working to this day. Drilling out the old rivets and tapping the rivet holes was the real bitch! I probably broke (and chiseled out) a 1/2 dozen taps over 4 builds. Those trunnions are HARD! I still have three of those Tapco flat receivers that need to be finished / bend. Macbeau. Edited September 8, 2015 by macbeau 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Screw the screws, real men pound rivets! Rivets do not unscrew, and they fill the body of the hole, screws must have clearance or they will not fit through the hole. Rivets fill the mis alignment of the holes in the pieces being joined. Screws do not, they just clamp the two pieces together, as technically a screw is just a spring clamp. Edited September 8, 2015 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 screws were popular when complete barreled kits were coming in. you didn't have to pull the barrel, you'd just drill out the rivets, remove any old receiver scraps, and insert the whole barreled trunnion assembly into a new receiver since barreled kits are all but gone thanks to the MG barrel ban, there's no reason not to completely rebuild using proper rivets. once you have the holes clear and have a bolt cutter tool or press, it should take a few minutes per rivet 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Screws are the easy way out……..pun intended Edited September 8, 2015 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 I don't think the million's of factory built AK's are baseless, This is a very flawed argument. Millions work using method A, =/= method B will not work. Conclusion does not follow. Authority uses method A =/= method A is superior to method B. False appeal to authority error. screws were popular when complete barreled kits were coming in. you didn't have to pull the barrel, you'd just drill out the rivets, remove any old receiver scraps, and insert the whole barreled trunnion assembly into a new receiver since barreled kits are all but gone thanks to the MG barrel ban, there's no reason not to completely rebuild using proper rivets. once you have the holes clear and have a bolt cutter tool or press, it should take a few minutes per rivet Also affordable bolt cutter riveters are common now, and weren't then, as are plenty of guides that show each step in detail. Let's not forget that "mil spec" = built by lowest bidder And also unchanged to keep standardization despite the fact that improved parts and ergonomics have been available for decades. Also built to fit a theoretical "average" soldier for a specific theory of usage. If you are that average guy of average body, intelligence, skill, vision, etc. and you plan to use it for exactly the same thing the military consensus of people with incompatible ideas settled on a half century ago, it's going to be a perfect fit. Good thing they were completely right and nothing has changed or been invented since then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) GunFun, I think you really overthought the whole thread. It has nothing to do with missing value equations, mil spec, or anything other than common practice. When the fist AK's were built (correct me if I'm wrong) but they were built by communist and I don't think the lowest bidder was a factor and probably had more to do with mass production numbers. To date, almost every gun I can think of is either milled with interlocking parts, welded, or riveted at heavy load points. Screws just aren't a typical method to assemble a firearm, not because they're doomed to fail but most likely more prone to failure than other methods. I'm more inclined to agree with mancat on what was going on when the market was flooded with $99 Romanian kits when the thought process of screw builds came to light. About the only guns I can think of with screws were old cowboy era, granted they didn't have Loctite back then, but missing/replaced screws are typically part of the valuation. Geeeez, both of us had roots in the paintball industry at one time...how many screws/set screws on those damn things came loose or fell out. It's just not a great option for a firearm or a method of assembly to promote. Given all the options to do it right with quality rivets, tools, or plans to make tools available I just wouldn't lead people down the path of a screw build. For those that have one I'm not belittling your build or work ethic, just realize you have other options these days, possibly revisit an old project on a cold winter day to pass the time and learn a new trick. Edited September 9, 2015 by 6500rpm 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) I've always wondered if anybody back in the days of those complete kits tried hardened steel pop rivets. They can fill in a shitload of material. I suspect they would've worked better than even loctited screws. any way, at least it's not this Edited September 9, 2015 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I read an account and saw pics of an AK pop-rivetted together. The person did an awful job. I guess it didn't run to good because he had more fun driving his truck over it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I would bet he used aluminum pop rivets, as it's almost like nobody knows that steel ones exist. Who knows though. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Post #22 is awful. don't get me wrong above. I don't think a screw build is the best way to go, but I also think it can be done fine and result in a safe, reliable gun. I just think it tends to be a bandwagon. AK purism is rather tiresome to me, because it is such a self contradictory mentality more often than not. The AK is about making a gun which meets your needs as cheaply and simply as possible. It is a machine of compromises. The lauded milled guns were a compromise and a stop gap, and every version since has been an attempt to improve shortcomings or get around costs. It's bizarre to see people celebrate that on one hand and jump on someone who does the same thing in their circumstances with the other. I don't really see the same degree of dogmatic obstinance with any other weapon platform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Post #22 is awful. don't get me wrong above. I don't think a screw build is the best way to go, but I also think it can be done fine and result in a safe, reliable gun. I just think it tends to be a bandwagon. AK purism is rather tiresome to me, because it is such a self contradictory mentality more often than not. The AK is about making a gun which meets your needs as cheaply and simply as possible. It is a machine of compromises. The lauded milled guns were a compromise and a stop gap, and every version since has been an attempt to improve shortcomings or get around costs. It's bizarre to see people celebrate that on one hand and jump on someone who does the same thing in their circumstances with the other. I don't really see the same degree of dogmatic obstinance with any other weapon platform. Trust me. It was not the preferred way even back when it was more popular. There just weren't a lot of options for the home builder and there weren't many professionals doing it either (Red Jacket was one, But Will was up to his ass in back orders and pediphilia. Jim Fuller and Rifle Dynamics came in on the tail end of the craze..). Remember, this was before the sunset of the '94 Assault Weapons Ban. There weren't even a lot of tools, jigs or parts to do it right. I remember sitting up one night reading up on how to modify some bolt cutters with two spare sets of heavily modified jaws to make (grind and file) a rivet crunching tool. There just weren't a lot of options if you wanted an AK from one of these AWESOME kits. Given civilian usage and the cheap cost of parts kits and receiver flats then, the screw build method had a lot of appeal. I built four and all but one are still working just fine today. I am not sure where people get the idea the the screws loosen over time. It's not like you could run the screws down with your fingers then just give a few tugs with an "L" allen wrench. They were work to get started and I had to use a power driver (with grey loctite) to get them in. And I at least welded the rails in. Many builds used screws to attach those too. They weren't the best by any means. They work, are safe and I sure did learn a lot about AK construction. That alone made my 1st Saiga conversion a snap. On a side note: I had considered using stainless steel pop rivets, but the grade 8 screws I was using were much harder. The receiver in reply 22 above looks like the old Vulcan I had problems with. The back is even cut out for the AMD-65 side folder. The hammer marks on the side were probably to get the FCG area to line up with the axis of the bore / bolt. Yeah - Those were horrible receivers. The Tapco's flats were much better, if you could get them bent correctly. Used to have "bend parties" where guys with flats would congregate at the house of a guy who had a 20 ton Harbor Freight press and a bending jig. The law states that YOU can build your own gun / receiver, so you couldn't just send it off and have someone else do the bending...legally. One of the nicest things about building it yourself on an 80% flat? No serial number... No form 4473... No marking at all... Macbeau... Edited September 9, 2015 by macbeau Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) I have 50 years or more experience in reparing broken machinery. Many of those machines broke where two or more pieces of metal were joined. I will say again that I would NEVER trust a screw build, unless I did it myself,as I have NEVER seen anyone do one right. To do screws right takes MORE time and tooling than rivets! Axial motion - where the fastener is in shear requires that the fastener has an interference fit - for screws that means that the the fastener must be larger than the holes by .001-.0001". That is after the holes have been dressed with a precision reamer to a precise size and PERFECT alignment, then the fastener STILL needs to be pressed into place. The body of the fastener must fill both pieces (if we are doing sheet metal) and the body DOES NOT INCLUDE THE THREADS! The threads need to outside of the pieces being fastened. That means the nut or tapped hole must have a few thread or two removed to allow it to be tightened. The nut or tapped hole then needs to be deep enough to have enough threads to match the diamater of the fastener. (1/2" bolt must have a nut with 1/2' OF THREADS on the bolt when tightened). With rivets, the holes need no special treatment or even accuracy. The holes do not even need to be perfectly aligned - they only need to be close enough for the rivet to flow into them completly when you brutally mash the rivets! Real men pound rivets! Edited September 9, 2015 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I've always wondered if anybody back in the days of those complete kits tried hardened steel pop rivets. They can fill in a shitload of material. I suspect they would've worked better than even loctited screws. any way, at least it's not this Ugly as sin... but I bet it shoots Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 the thread I found it in, the guy who knows the owner said it's 100% reliable, and yes it has no safety. lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SGL 530 Posted September 10, 2015 Report Share Posted September 10, 2015 There's no way you would see me holding that up in front of my face and pulling the trigger. It works 100%.....so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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