Mags for a Black Aces Tactical DTR?

[Kurt Hofmann 2]

So within a few weeks, I expect to have my very own Black Aces Tactical DTR.  For those not familiar, it's a 12 gauge pump that takes Saiga mags, has an 8 1/2" barrel, but because of the way "shotgun" is defined in federal law, is legal without any NFA hoops.

 

I have a Vepr 12, but have never owned a Saiga.  My question is about recommended magazines.  Mostly sticks, but I know at some point I'm going to want a drum (I can't help myself when it comes to that kinda thing).  Any recommendations for max reliability?

 

Thanks in advance.

[gunfun 3,931]

They have modified followers. Black aces has a sketchy reputation for reliability, and customer service.

[Kurt Hofmann 2]

Much appreciated.  Not what I wanted to hear, but probably something I need to hear.  Just wish I would have checked with you earlier.

[DavidQ 170]

I would stay away from modding saiga mags. There is literally zero info on what needs to be done. I ruined an sgm 12 rounder because of it. I would stick with the ones they offer. For me at least customer service has been great. Had an issue and got an email back within 10 minutes on a Sunday night.

[Kurt Hofmann 2]

I just ordered a couple of the mags Black Aces offers.  Not cheap, but nothing is these days.

[gunfun 3,931]

There, you got one of our hand full of guys with recent first hand experience. Way better than asking me.

[csspecs 1,987]

One observation about the shotgun.. If they had come out just a little later they could have used the MKA1919 mags instead of the Saiga, odds are it would have been close to fitting between the action bars, or been close enough to make custom action bars. That could have eliminated the need for a modified magazine.

 

Just to be clear. Our magazines do not fit those shotguns.

[Vance665 225]

I have a ton of AGP mags I wouldn't mind hacking up now that I replaced them all with css mags. I really want to like this little shotgun but the price kills it for me. If they offered a base model without all the fancy extras for around $800, I would be tempted.

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

Get an Adaptive Tactical Venom kit. Much better than the Black Ace IMO.

[csspecs 1,987]

I have a ton of AGP mags I wouldn't mind hacking up now that I replaced them all with css mags. I really want to like this little shotgun but the price kills it for me. If they offered a base model without all the fancy extras for around $800, I would be tempted.

 

The base model with the 18" barrel and standard stock is actually $500. It is the short models that cost a bunch.

[Vance665 225]

 

 

I have a ton of AGP mags I wouldn't mind hacking up now that I replaced them all with css mags. I really want to like this little shotgun but the price kills it for me. If they offered a base model without all the fancy extras for around $800, I would be tempted.

The base model with the 18" barrel and standard stock is actually $500. It is the short models that cost a bunch.

Yeah, thats the one I like though.

 

If someone made a saiga12 clone with a brace and overall length of 26.5" I would buy that for $1400+. I can't justify that for a pump.

[DavidQ 170]

Sending you a pm Vance.

[Buckeye78 0]

I just got one (the base model $500 one) and am going to shoot it Saturday morning for the first time.  Quality actually look very good, but that aside back to the mags.  CSpecs metal mags are a no (prob cause their fit to my S12).  SMG's fit like a baby and actually a better fit than the Black Aces one that came with it.  20rd drum is a no go (you could prob mod to fit) and the ProMag 10rd drum fit, but a little loose side to side.  Hope that helps!   

[saltydecimator 482]

I'm annoyed we can't get a real gun with off teh shelf components... Like on an akdal or a a Saiga. Or vepr.

 

What's the law on parts kits? Cause all we really need from rooskies is everything but the barrel receiver and trunnion. Well actually they could give is the bent up flat because the receiver on Saigas is the barrel trunnion. Make it so!!!

[dkwright 0]

Bought two 5-round Saiga 12ga Pro Mag Industries magazines. Neither of them fit in the Black Tactical Pro Series M Semi-Auto 12 ga.  Black Aces says they will fit but they do not.  The rear lip on the mag is too wide and will not eject from the weapon.  Black Aces has not responded to my email nor will they answer the phone.  Gun works well with the Black Aces magazine and high brass shells.  Can no find magazines on the Black Aces website. 

[gunfun 3,931]

Yep. Still a sketchy company.

 

BTW, stop thinking about brass height. It's misleading. Look at the muzzle energy of the shells. That's what you actually want to know. Mass x velocity.

 

 

[csspecs 1,987]

1 hour ago, gunfun said:

Yep. Still a sketchy company.

 

BTW, stop thinking about brass height. It's misleading. Look at the muzzle energy of the shells. That's what you actually want to know. Mass x velocity.

 

 

It's actually half mass x velocity square.

https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/physics/kinetic.php

But yeah either is better than high brass low brass.

And I'm amused by black aces abandoning their magazine production. We offered to make them under some sort of mutually beneficial agreement. But they wanted to make money on the magazines. They patent locked their magazines by making the gun use a feature they had a patent on. Same for the remington box mag guns.

Current patents are 20 years I think. So I can make replacements for the black aces gun in 2034 and the Remington in I think 2038.

I can start making double stacks in 2029 only 8 years away.

Currently have a knock off of a stupid patent locked .22lr magazine, the patent was issued in 1903, guns design kinda sucks because it was designed around a magazine that was a gimmick over 100 years ago.

Edited November 20, 2020 by csspecs

[gunfun 3,931]

That is a valid correction.

I think it's good that you aren't in contract with black aces. They have done enough scammy stuff, you would get burned somehow by association. 

With all of the adkal clones out there, what stops you from jumping on that market? Are the selling points too low?

[dkwright 0]

For those of us who own a Black Aces tactical does anyone know where we could get a couple of magazines that work?

[csspecs 1,987]

7 hours ago, gunfun said:

That is a valid correction.

I think it's good that you aren't in contract with black aces. They have done enough scammy stuff, you would get burned somehow by association. 

With all of the adkal clones out there, what stops you from jumping on that market? Are the selling points too low?

Yeah probably for the best.

Nothing stopping me from the MKA-1919 and clones, except for a HUGE lack of consistency with the guns. I can't afford to fix that mess.. There are products we have walked away from because the original makers botched their quality control to the point that it is too costly to fix the problems, people have this idea that shipping stuff back and forth is cheap, how much profit is left shipping a $40 item back and forth a few times at $11.95 per trip? Nothing.

I can and do make stuff that is not for guns. I like making gun parts, it's fun. But I'd rather weld flashing parts for weeks on end than fix someone else's mistakes that I get blamed for.

Lately I've been slipping more toward older .22lr magazines, obsolete stuff, and stuff that is not gun parts. I've grown tired of chasing the ever changing 'new thing'. You barely get the new thing rushed to market and they are already moving onto something new.

[csspecs 1,987]

8 hours ago, dkwright said:

For those of us who own a Black Aces tactical does anyone know where we could get a couple of magazines that work?

My suggestion. Promag, caliper and a file.. Figure out what the difference is and make them the same.

ALWAYS measure relative to the AMMO. Goal is ammo into gun, as long as the ammo is in the same position in the gun, the shape of the outside of the magazine is totally irrelevant. So if you are lining two magazines up, load a few rounds into the magazines and use the lock up points to compare.

Edited November 21, 2020 by csspecs