"Molot" Brake Disrupting Pattern?

[yamadog35 28]

Thought I would throw this out there just for general knowledge or discussion, but also to see if anyone else had experienced this.   Perhaps it is considered "normal"?

 

While at the range today I pattern tested my two primary home defense shotguns which are a Mossberg 500 20" cylinder bore and a Mossberg 930 SPX 18.5" cylinder bore.

I was specifically testing Federal Flight Control 00Buck-8 pellet (LE13300) and #1-15 pellet (LE1321B)

I tested primarily at 20 feet since that is about the max distance I will experience within my house.

The two Mossbergs delivered a very tight pattern with both loads with buckshot and wad both going through a hole about the size of a quarter.

Just for fun I tried both of these loads at 20 feet in my S-12 which has a US VERSION OF THE VEPR 12 "MOLOT" GK-01 BRAKE purchased at CSS.

In the photos below you can see the difference.  The only thing I could think is that that somehow the brake disrupted the wad/cup as it passed through.

Is there anything else about the S-12 barrel that could alter what I was expecting as a pattern other than this brake?

 

The first two photos are the Flight Control loads through the two Mossberg guns.

 

The next two are the same loads through the S-12.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Try it without the brake?

[pedal2alloy 206]

The brake is causing the wad to tumble.  But not really an issue unless it is affecting your accuracy 

[Sim_Player 1,939]

So the shot seperated from the wad under 20 ft. Interesting.

 

I always imagined the pellets/wad acting like a slug, under 20.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Sim_Player

[gunfun 3,931]

I dunno. Possibly the "drag petals" are opening inside the comp and catching . I really would love to see some high speed vidja on that. Any signs of plastic shavings or smears on the partitions of the front part of the comp?

 

 

Flite control wads have some reversed petals at the shock column portion of the wad rather than the normal ones at the front. It may be that while there is still gas pushing a little behind and no constriction around the sides, these pop open prematurely.

 

Hornady's versatite wads work about the same way, but it would also be interesting to see if these are similarly affected.

[yamadog35 28]

I don't see anything in the brake itself.  No bits of plastic or anything.   I didn't get a chance to try it yesterday without the brake,but will do so next time I can get out.  It's not a big deal certainly.  Just wasn't what I was expecting given the pattern with the Mossberg guns.   I guess it just shows you always need to pattern test with the gun you intend to use.

[gunfun 3,931]

Try to revcover the wads next time. I am going to go on record with the prediction that the forward facing petal portions will be curled back or at least show signs of impact.

 

[Hawk451 2,230]

I had a similar deal with flitecontrol buck in my S-12. One hole out to about 12 yards with muzzle nut attatched, patterns indistinguishable from regular buck with polychoke attached. I don't know if it's the collet 'petals' or passing through the cutts compensator, but it does make a difference.  Only use the polychoke for sporting clays now.

[gunfun 3,931]

It could also be that the venting simply strips the wad early, so the shotcup is not holding the column together, much like the "stripper chokes" used for shooting close game birds.

[Fitty% 808]

I dunno. Possibly the "drag petals" are opening inside the comp and catching . I really would love to see some high speed vidja on that. Any signs of plastic shavings or smears on the partitions of the front part of the comp?

 

 

Flite control wads have some reversed petals at the shock column portion of the wad rather than the normal ones at the front. It may be that while there is still gas pushing a little behind and no constriction around the sides, these pop open prematurely.

 

Hornady's versatite wads work about the same way, but it would also be interesting to see if these are similarly affected.

Was thinking of doing a video on this subject of "Brake + Bird/Buck = ??? Pattern"

[JDeko 792]

My Sellier & Bellot 00 rounds seemed to pattern a bit at about that same distance. The targets I shot I shot to hell but there are individual pellet holes on them as opposed to tight groups. I have the Mini-Monster brake on mine, of course those rounds don't have flight control and maybe are supposed to pattern early. Just sharing in case its useful.

[yamadog35 28]

Update:  Got back out to the range today.  I had taken the brake off of the barrel before heading out so I took one shot each at 20 feet with the #1 and 00 flight control rounds.  They looked like the following.  Nice tight small hole just like from my Mossberg guns with cyl bore.  So . . . pretty much what I was expecting to begin with.

 

I put the brake back on and took two more shots also at 20 feet.  These looked like the two shots in my OP so the brake is definitely messing with the output.

 

The berm is messy behind the targets so I was only able to recover this one wad. I do know it is from one of the shots with the brake attached because it showed up in plain sight after I took those two shots.  I'm not sure what to make of it.  I'd like to have one from this barrel with no brake attached for comparison.  This one most definitely looks chewed up.

Edited September 26, 2015 by yamadog35

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks.

 

That is not how I expected the damage to look.  - - - I believe from looking at that that the gas seal section expanded like the tail of a minie into the cutouts of the brake. This caused it to strip early. Is there visible wear on the anodizing there?

 

It looks as though you would be better off buying cheaper buckshot like this: for that gun: http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=457

 

Cheap. Buffered. Better quality hull than the rem stuff. I think the pellets look a little more uniform too. So since it is common, and the same cost as the rem, it is better value. I have had a few stray pieces of buffer leak out, so for long term storage in your mag, a drop of glue on the middle of the crimp might be smart. (i should do that)

BTW. This is a great thread, and a refreshing change. I unsubbed and re-subbed so I would get instant notice.

 

Actually discussing and investigating firearms function, not political BS or posting greasy pictures of plastic women. -- What the forum is supposed to be for.

 

It's fascinating, because two of the acknowledged pinnacle of category products, that virtually no-one would disparage which ought to work together perfectly      don't. No amount of guessing or pontificating would have predicted this. Instead insightful observation of what you are actually getting and pictures.

[yamadog35 28]

This is just a fun gun for me and I normally would run cheaper ammo through it for what I do (just fun with my buddies at the range).  I just stumbled on this while I was pattern testing my go-to defense shotguns and running the flight control through it was actually at suggestion of one of my buddies - one of those "hey, let's just see what happens" moments.  I thought posting it here may may just get others to thinking about making sure they pattern test whatever they're going to seriously shoot with because you just never know.  I have a number of shotguns but none have a device at the end of the barrel like this and to be honest I just never thought about it having this kind of effect. 

 

I've not shot the gun all that much since putting this brake on there so I don't think it's worn much.  It's dirty right now but I don't see any significant wear or damage internally.  I'm not sure this photo will show up well, but there is a definite expansion internally for about 1.5 inches past the threads and then it constricts again.  I'm not sure if that short distance is long enough for the "wings" to spread and then catch on the constriction or not.

Edited September 26, 2015 by yamadog35

[dochoc 4]

I have found since fitting my Molot brake that the shot pattern with birdshot and buckshot has opened up quite noticeably. In the UK we mainly have to use fibre loads, as plastic is not allowed at most clubs. However I have used plastic where permitted and found that the pattern spreading is common to both. Unbuffered buckshot seems to be the worst affected, and gave me great problems in the recent world shoot in Italy. I believe some of the Italian cartridge manufactures worked with the Italian team to fine tune the loads, and they definitely seemed to have cracked the problem. The Russian teams also seemed to have no issues. I have sourced some of the new Italian buffered buckshot used out there and plan to do some back to back testing.  

[gunfun 3,931]

I have found since fitting my Molot brake that the shot pattern with birdshot and buckshot has opened up quite noticeably. In the UK we mainly have to use fibre loads, as plastic is not allowed at most clubs. However I have used plastic where permitted and found that the pattern spreading is common to both. Unbuffered buckshot seems to be the worst affected, and gave me great problems in the recent world shoot in Italy. I believe some of the Italian cartridge manufactures worked with the Italian team to fine tune the loads, and they definitely seemed to have cracked the problem. The Russian teams also seemed to have no issues. I have sourced some of the new Italian buffered buckshot used out there and plan to do some back to back testing.  

 

Thanks for the input. If by italian stuff, you mean B&P, it has plastic shotcups that are most similar to those of remington premium in the US. (Guilani wads are kinda like the Rem figure 8 wads). I probably spelled that all wrong.

[6500rpm 670]

As I recall, Saiga 12's have had issues with the threads not being concentric to the bore. I can see with the length of the Molot brake being one of, if not the longest brakes I've seen, that a non concentric barrel could cause shot cup strikes similar to baffle strikes in a suppressor. Additional food for thought.

[gunfun 3,931]

As I recall, Saiga 12's have had issues with the threads not being concentric to the bore. I can see with the length of the Molot brake being one of, if not the longest brakes I've seen, that a non concentric barrel could cause shot cup strikes similar to baffle strikes in a suppressor. Additional food for thought.

 

That is true, and it's been observed in veprs too, but less often. For this reason, most of the devices have a lot of clearance which plainly diminishes the potential effectiveness for the sake of safety. More so if they are counterbored to allow a choke to be installed through them.