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Intro - new Saiga-12 owner


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Hey everyone, I've been lurking on the site for a few months now and figured I'd properly introduce myself.  I recently brought home a Saiga-12 and my 16 year-old son and I took it to the range last weekend for the first time.  It had literally been sitting in a case un-fired since originally purchased in 2000, so felt a little guilty actually using it (but that feeling went away quickly)  :-)

 

From the research I've done it looks like I got a very desirable 1999 model that has "Kalishnakov" written on the side (Port St. Lucie, FL).  Apparently these early versions had much better QC than the later ones.   The barrel is 22.8" and does not have any threading.   I ran a variety of rounds through it, and as expected, it required gas setting #2 to cycle bird shot/target loads, but otherwise cycled everything beautifully without a single FTF or FTE in about 80 rounds.  The only issue I had was that trying to quickly load mags would often deform the first round unless I held the bolt open (I've seen this mentioned in other threads) but at other times would work just fine.  There's obviously a trick to it, but the problem was worse with softer casings for obvious reasons.

 

Things I like:

1. Cycles  just fine on setting #2 with target loads - yippee!

2. Seems to shoots a good tight pattern (though I want to do some more "scientific" pattern testing on card board with a measuring tape and various loads)

3. Much easier to sight and more accurate than I expected, right out of the box (I had pretty low expectations)

4. Damned fun to shoot!

 

Things I don't like (so far):

 

1. No last round BHO (or any BHO at all for that matter!)

2. Inability to consistently load a mag without jamming/deforming the first round

3. Trigger reach is a bit long for my taste

4. Safety is devilishly sticky and hard to cycle between S & F

5. Would like a peep-type sight (like the Krebs setup maybe).

6. Fixed choke (though its probably an OK setup for trap shooting, which I'm starting to get into lately and not planning to buy an expensive fancy Italian gun).

 

As a result, my immediate goals are to:

  • Replace the FCG as part of a conversion, and hopefully find a way to gain BHO, even if its manual
  • Replace the stock with something adjustable (but that can be FIXED for California compliance)
  • Get some 10-rd mags (can't have anything bigger in CA)

I'm pretty handy, but I don't have a shop, so I don't have power tools beyond a Dremel and a cordless drill.  I've restored WWII pistols, old rifles, etc. and really enjoy tinkering, so the Saiga looks right up my alley, but unfortunately there are no good gunsmiths in my area (that I am aware of), so my mods will be limited to stuff I can do with simple hand tools at home.

 

My other SGs are an old break-open single shot 410, a Mossberg 500  (12 ga), a Mossberg 185D bolt-action 20 ga, and an old JC Higgins Model 20 Deluxe 12-ga.   Sort of an odd assortment of family hand-me-downs and stuff I've acquired over the years.  For obvious reasons, the Saiga is going to get most of my shotgun lovin' for the foreseeable future...

 

Looking forward to learning more and spending a lot more time at the range with the Saiga.

 

-Brent

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Welcome aboard!

 

Properly fitted Dinzag or Krebs enhanced safety would be a good thing for your needs.

 

As far as magazines, my personal advice is to avoid Promag sticks (their drums actually seem ok) SGMs & all drums (sorry, Mike) are good for range toys.  Serious use calls for factory 5s or 8s (if you can find/afford them) and Csspecs 8 round magazines.

 

 That's just me, YMMV.

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Tight safety lever....

Remove dust cover only.

Rotate safety up (vertical), bend outwards slightly.

Rotate back down, test tension by actuation.

Rinse and repeat until desired tension is achieved.

 

Saigas generally only require simple hand tools. Pistol grip conversions are easily done...easily. 

Edited by Mullet Man
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Thanks guys!

 

I see that Dinzag basically just modifies the original safety, but the Krebs unit appears to be a new unit?  any difference between the two?

 

By "serious use" I'm assuming you mean competition, which at this point I'm not planning on doing, so I'm figuring that

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That sounds right re the krebs vs dinzag. you can also do it yourself. I have a video and gallery on how, and/or you can use an AK builder kit. 

 

MM is right about the safety tweaking. support at the hub with one hand and pull hard with the other. I prefer to lift it over the safety stop and rotate it down though. easier to get good leverage. It is very strong, so fear not.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jzCYM_erPE

 

Some people here hate their BHOs, and would probably give you one for free. It's also common to see people optimistically trying to sell all the original internals on ebay. They seldom sell, so you could get those for a dollar or two. This site and CSS also used to sell custom ones. CSS might still. You will have to drill a couple holes and file them into a notch to allow the BHO tab to stick through. not a big deal. The krebs style notch is fine too, but I like having the factory manual BHO.

 

I also did a video on the trick(s) to loading mags on a closed bolt. You might find it helpful. 

 

I like the krebs sights, but I think the dinzag front sight post is the cleanest design. Krebs is handy because it is solid and has that nice peep. cSS's version takes AR front sight posts, which makes doing a tritium much cheaper and gives way more options.  

 

I like the CSSpecs and SGM mags best. The promag mini drum is decent too, but I hate giving that company money because of how shoddy so much of their stuff is, including the 10/22 drum they sold me which they had to know would never work in any gun as shipped. 

 

The trigger reach will be cured with a conversion, or if you want to keep the stock for cali reasons, you can at least swap out the trigger group for a nicer pull.

 

As for the choke, I recommend the winchoke adapter sold by cobra or the similar DPH one with 10 slot flash hider style. I don't know if your 22" barrel is threaded. Most of the 22 and 24" models have fixed full choke.

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Thanks guys!

 

I see that Dinzag basically just modifies the original safety, but the Krebs unit appears to be a new unit?  any difference between the two?

 

Krebs is a clean single stamped piece with a nicely formed finger tab. And there is no real wait time to get one, aside from shipping.

 

Dinzag does really nice work on a lot of things (I have a few of his parts), but his shipping and contact can be spotty at times. Tho he does come through.

 

Functionally, they will do the same thing.

 

I have Krebs safeties on all my AK's. They are just more aesthetically pleasing to me.

 

No factory BHO, I'd do the safety mod then. I throw all my factory BHO's in the trash (figuratively). They're actually in a parts box in my desk.

Edited by Mullet Man
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Agree with GunFun & Mullet Man on the safeties. There's also a drill & rivet drop-tab at Krebs. If you're handy & looking to limit costs, you could fab, drill & rivet your own drop-tab &  cut out notch to trap charging handle on your existing safety. 

 

I wouldn't hesitate to use an MD20 drum in a match if it were allowed & advantageous to the stage I was shooting. Promag drums are pretty good too (the ONLY Promag products I've been impressed with).  

 

'Serious' uses might involve "correcting evil men". The drums all rattle due to the rounds having fore & aft movement. Also limited selection of 2-3/4" rounds. Some roll-crimped ammo is too long.  SGMs will take 3", but can shear front tab if using heavy 3" loads in low temperatures.   Haven't tried factory 8s yet, but Csspec mags have been completely reliable with everything from trap loads to 3" slugs. 

Edited by Hawk451
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Some people here hate their BHOs, and would probably give you one for free. It's also common to see people optimistically trying to sell all the original internals on ebay. They seldom sell, so you could get those for a dollar or two. This site and CSS also used to sell custom ones. CSS might still. You will have to drill a couple holes and file them into a notch to allow the BHO tab to stick through. not a big deal. The krebs style notch is fine too, but I like having the factory manual BHO.

 

I like the krebs sights, but I think the dinzag front sight post is the cleanest design. Krebs is handy because it is solid and has that nice peep. cSS's version takes AR front sight posts, which makes doing a tritium much cheaper and gives way more options.  

 

I like the CSSpecs and SGM mags best. The promag mini drum is decent too, but I hate giving that company money because of how shoddy so much of their stuff is, including the 10/22 drum they sold me which they had to know would never work in any gun as shipped. 

 

The trigger reach will be cured with a conversion, or if you want to keep the stock for cali reasons, you can at least swap out the trigger group for a nicer pull.

 

As for the choke, I recommend the winchoke adapter sold by cobra or the similar DPH one with 10 slot flash hider style. I don't know if your 22" barrel is threaded. Most of the 22 and 24" models have fixed full choke.

 

So I'm curious why someone would hate the BHO (just wondering what I'm not thinking about)?

 

Are CSSspecs = mags from Carolina Shooter's Supply?  (the 5, 8, 10,  and 12)  Can't use drums or >10rd mags in CA)

 

With the Cobra or DPH, do they thread on to the original external threads?  My barrel is not threaded at all (has an internal choke that is somewhere between Skeet and Improved Cylinder, according to a PM from another forum member)

 

 

 

 

I have Krebs safeties on all my AK's. They are just more aesthetically pleasing to me.

 

No factory BHO, I'd do the safety mod then. I throw all my factory BHO's in the trash (figuratively). They're actually in a parts box in my desk.

 

 

So I'm confused - you'd do the BHO modified safety but you throw away the factory ones?  Is that because the notched safety modification is somehow superior to the original BHO on the later models?

 

 

There's also a drill & rivet drop-tab at Krebs. If you're handy & looking to limit costs, you could fab, drill & rivet your own drop-tab &  cut out notch to trap charging handle on your existing safety. 

 

I'm still getting familiar with AK parts - what is the "drop tab"?     I don't think I'd trust myself to cleanly notch the safety to catch the charging handle - it just doesn't see like a hack saw and file would produce the same result someone like Krebs is going to deliver...  :-)

 

 

Thanks again guys for the warm welcome and the advice - keep it coming!   

 

I started looking at the conversion kits at CSS and my head is swimming...  it seems like they all come with the Tapco G2 FCG and then various choices of parts after that, which I'm assuming are largely aesthetic choices...  I'd like something that remains lightweight and usable and practical.  A 3.5 pound quad rail + fore grip setup is not something that interests me. but a light weight comfortable stock, PG, handguard, and nice clean rail/sight setup would be great.  

Edited by sbsyncro
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the detentes with krebs levers doesn't always match the scratch from your original lever, so if you care about that...

 

That is the most annoying thing about them. The Saiga specific Krebs safeties did not line up with the OE levers scratch marks on either of my Saigas (S12+7.62x39). The Krebs safeties on my Vepr's (The non Saiga specific model safeties) lined up perfectly.

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I have Krebs safeties on all my AK's. They are just more aesthetically pleasing to me.

 

No factory BHO, I'd do the safety mod then. I throw all my factory BHO's in the trash (figuratively). They're actually in a parts box in my desk.

 

 

So I'm confused - you'd do the BHO modified safety but you throw away the factory ones?  Is that because the notched safety modification is somehow superior to the original BHO on the later models?

 

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/97741-anyone-encounter-this-too-with-the-saiga-12-bho/

I'll just link to that thread with opinions from myself and others.

 

In your specific case, seeing as you never had one from the factory, my opinion is you'd be going backwards to want to use one. Let alone having to modify the receiver to install it.

 

The Krebs type safety (home made or other) is superior in my opinion because it is SUPER simple and adds absolutely no extra parts that can fail.

 

Drop-tab is just the finger tab part of the Krebs safety. Krebs sells the tab by itself with two small rivets for people who want to DIY. I actually used one of these on my Yugo M92 PAP pistol because Krebs safeties don't work on the Yugos.

Edited by Mullet Man
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the detentes with krebs levers doesn't always match the scratch from your original lever, so if you care about that...

That is the most annoying thing about them. The Saiga specific Krebs safeties did not line up with the OE levers scratch marks on either of my Saigas (S12+7.62x39). The Krebs safeties on my Vepr's (The non Saiga specific model safeties) lined up perfectly.

I wish I'd known this before I took the gun out and used it. It didn't have a scratch there yet until we took it out last weekend! Its probably faint enough now that I can still cover it with a bit of paint and it would never show... Edited by sbsyncro
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Csspecs is one of our vendors here on the forum, so I hope the mods don't have a problem with me posting a direct link:

 

http://stores.csspecs.com/saiga-12-gauge-8-round-steel-magazine/

 

These mags will probably require a little judicious filing on the rear lug to ensure a perfect fit. Just take your time & 'sneak up on it', let sleeping dremel tools lie.

 

Also, I would assume member discount is still valid?

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/81415-saiga-12-forum-member-discount-code/

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I believe you CAN use drums in CA, just not drums over 10. MD sells a 10 shot version, but it is full sized. So pointless. Promag sells a smaller 10 shot drum. the comments above do a good job of addressing your other questions.

 

As noted CSSpecs and CSS (carolina shooter supply) are different companies. this frequently leads to confusion.

 

Linking to current vendors is never a problem, so long as you are not doing so in a competitor's sub forum. i.e. Linking Tac47's build services in the Tromix subforum would be improper, but showing your tromix S17 with a tac47 autoplug would be fine. Putting a description of the whole gun with links to all parts in general discussion or saiga12 would also be fine.

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the detentes with krebs levers doesn't always match the scratch from your original lever, so if you care about that...

That is the most annoying thing about them. The Saiga specific Krebs safeties did not line up with the OE levers scratch marks on either of my Saigas (S12+7.62x39). The Krebs safeties on my Vepr's (The non Saiga specific model safeties) lined up perfectly.
I wish I'd known this before I took the gun out and used it. It didn't have a scratch there yet until we took it out last weekend! Its probably faint enough now that I can still cover it with a bit of paint and it would never show...

Don't worry about that seriously. Someday you will finish the conversion and finally settle in on the setup you like. Then worry about the finish.

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As he said, krebs are formed smoothly.

 

the detentes with krebs levers doesn't always match the scratch from your original lever, so if you care about that...

I just recently obtained a Krebs safety with that exact issue. Not worried so much about the scratch, but my receiver already has a divot for detent to fall into. The metal is thin so I'm worried about welding a new stud and filing the old one off. Anyone know how tough they actually are and if they can take the heat, or maybe other possible solutions?

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Nothing to weld. Just take a punch and make a mark where the detente clicks. then drill it slightly deeper with a drill bit. i.e. 1/8" cobalt. It only takes a kiss to make a positive click. Nothing to worry about and you aren't risking any strength.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Tight safety lever....

Remove dust cover only.

Rotate safety up (vertical), bend outwards slightly.

Rotate back down, test tension by actuation.

Rinse and repeat until desired tension is achieved.

 

Saigas generally only require simple hand tools. Pistol grip conversions are easily done...easily. 

Pulling on the safety lever can't do it to all. Its all about the tolerances in the rotating axis on safety lever shaft where it meets the receiver when installed.

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Tight safety lever....

Remove dust cover only.

Rotate safety up (vertical), bend outwards slightly.

Rotate back down, test tension by actuation.

Rinse and repeat until desired tension is achieved.

 

Saigas generally only require simple hand tools. Pistol grip conversions are easily done...easily. 

Pulling on the safety lever can't do it to all. Its all about the tolerances in the rotating axis on safety lever shaft where it meets the receiver when installed.

 

Out of the 8 AK's I've owned, I've yet to need to polish that portion of the safety after tensioning it. You can, I agree, but I've never needed to.

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Tight safety lever....

Remove dust cover only.

Rotate safety up (vertical), bend outwards slightly.

Rotate back down, test tension by actuation.

Rinse and repeat until desired tension is achieved.

 

Saigas generally only require simple hand tools. Pistol grip conversions are easily done...easily. 

Pulling on the safety lever can't do it to all. Its all about the tolerances in the rotating axis on safety lever shaft where it meets the receiver when installed.

 

Out of the 8 AK's I've owned, I've yet to need to polish that portion of the safety after tensioning it. You can, I agree, but I've never needed to.

 

There are a lot more than 8 AKs out there...lol

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Tight safety lever....

Remove dust cover only.

Rotate safety up (vertical), bend outwards slightly.

Rotate back down, test tension by actuation.

Rinse and repeat until desired tension is achieved.

 

Saigas generally only require simple hand tools. Pistol grip conversions are easily done...easily.

Pulling on the safety lever can't do it to all. Its all about the tolerances in the rotating axis on safety lever shaft where it meets the receiver when installed.

Out of the 8 AK's I've owned, I've yet to need to polish that portion of the safety after tensioning it. You can, I agree, but I've never needed to.

There are a lot more than 8 AKs out there...lol

No Shit? All I can do is speak from my experience. How about you? Or are you just regurgitating what Jim Fuller said in a YouTube video?

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No Shit? All I can do is speak from my experience. How about you? Or are you just regurgitating what Jim Fuller said in a YouTube video?

 

I actually don't really watch Jim Fullers videos so I didn't know he said that...lol

 

I have a friend that builds high quality AKs that I went through machinist school with. He built my AK74 and during the build process we were trying to decide on a safety for it. I was going to go with a Galil type safety but we decided to go with the Krebs enhanced safety that I have on my Saiga12. After we installed it I noticed that it was a little tougher to actuate The the one on my Saiga12. Thats when he schooled me in person on the reason why because I was just going to bend it a little too...lol 

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No Shit? All I can do is speak from my experience. How about you? Or are you just regurgitating what Jim Fuller said in a YouTube video?

 

I actually don't really watch Jim Fullers videos so I didn't know he said that...lol

 

I have a friend that builds high quality AKs that I went through machinist school with. He built my AK74 and during the build process we were trying to decide on a safety for it. I was going to go with a Galil type safety but we decided to go with the Krebs enhanced safety that I have on my Saiga12. After we installed it I noticed that it was a little tougher to actuate The the one on my Saiga12. Thats when he schooled me in person on the reason why because I was just going to bend it a little too...lol 

 

 

So enlighten me on how polishing the axis of the safety relieves tension against the receiver?

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No Shit? All I can do is speak from my experience. How about you? Or are you just regurgitating what Jim Fuller said in a YouTube video?

 

I actually don't really watch Jim Fullers videos so I didn't know he said that...lol

 

I have a friend that builds high quality AKs that I went through machinist school with. He built my AK74 and during the build process we were trying to decide on a safety for it. I was going to go with a Galil type safety but we decided to go with the Krebs enhanced safety that I have on my Saiga12. After we installed it I noticed that it was a little tougher to actuate The the one on my Saiga12. Thats when he schooled me in person on the reason why because I was just going to bend it a little too...lol 

 

 

So enlighten me on how polishing the axis of the safety relieves tension against the receiver?

 

 

I think he is saying to relieve the friction at the point where the safety is pinching the wall of the receiver, rather than bending it which reduces the friction at the "scratching" point.

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I think he is saying to relieve the friction at the point where the safety is pinching the wall of the receiver, rather than bending it which reduces the friction at the "scratching" point.

I know what he's saying. But that still doesn't relieve the spring tension against the receiver.

 

I'm going to try it on my m92 since it has an extremely tight safety and I haven't messed with it yet.

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I think he is saying to relieve the friction at the point where the safety is pinching the wall of the receiver, rather than bending it which reduces the friction at the "scratching" point.

 

^^^^What he said

 

Not all safeties are made the same just like every AK out there. Its a very loose tolerance firearm and thats why it works so well but also that every AK is different. You can pick up one AK that has a very loose safety and then another thats very tight. With some safeties the bending the safety outboard a bit releasing a bit of its spring tension, which makes sure it stays in the detent, will help out a bit but only if the tolerance of the area where it "pinches" the receiver is loose enough. If the tolerance in the "pinching" area of the safety is very tight, then you could bend the safety to where its not even touching the receiver and it would still be tough to move and the only thing you've done is to make sure that the safety will not stay in the detent if bumped.

 

Look at your safety while its installed and the dust cover is off from the inside of the receiver. Look at the "pinching" area and take it out of the receiver. Now you can either take a small file or sandpaper, depending on your skill level and confidence, and slowly take some of the material where it "pinches" the receiver away. Do this in small increments and between each filing/sanding put it back in the receiver to test. Once the desired friction has been achieved, leave the safety lever installed and put your file/sandpaper away.

 

Im not an AK armorer/builder but I am a machinist that does a lot of gun work......plus I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night so I got that going for me. 

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