Winchester Super-X Number 6 Shot 030 Type Saiga Multiple FTEs

[JDeko 792]

Possibly previously with 00 Buck Super-X as well as Sellier and Belliot though those might have been due to me putting a 45 degree angle mounted laser on the same side the charging handle and the shells possibly hitting it and getting stuck.

 

This time I left the right side clear but still had 4-5 FTEs with the 6 shot. I noticed they were "low brass" but supposedly that means nothing anymore? I oiled everything last time to the range, so one month and 86 shells before this so does it need to be cleaned and oiled again? Or is it too clean?

 

I'm still new to all this so I appreciate all the advice and knowledge I can call upon here.

 

Thank you for your time.

[gunfun 3,931]

You've been around long enough to have read that brass height means as much as "natural' on food packaging. A lot of people assume it means something, but it only is there for selling to the uninformed.

 

Ditto for #6 shot. Shot size is irrelevant to the working energy of the shell.

 

What you need for it to be even remotely meaningful for assessment is exactly two points of data. Weight of shot. Velocity of shot.

 

The 030/ Vepr 12 style open unregulated piston system is "one size kinda fits all, but it's  gunna be rough at the top end." 

 

They often really start working at 3 1/4" dr eq, but 3 dr eq is acheivable and a fair amount get it out of the box. It's hard to get firm numbers, but the trend seems to be that the normal for '109 style gas systems is 3 dr eq for most, un modified, and for the 030/v12 style. ~3.25 dr eq.

[JDeko 792]

Supposedly the 6 shots are 3.25 dram but I had approximately an FTE a mag, and with my 4-round mag and 25 rounds that was about 4 or 5. All the Super-X 2 shot ran fine though, also had recoil like slugs. Can't find the exact rounds on Winchester's website but it is 1 1/8 weight at 1400 velocity. 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Try pulling the weapon tightly into the shoulder or chest. This makes the weapon move less and the action move more, to simplify it. You will also take less of a beating.

 

A well refined 030/433 can reliably run Winchester Universal with a 13.5" barrel, so yours should be able to run that ammo if well supported.

Edited October 6, 2015 by evlblkwpnz

[YOT 3,743]

Stop posting bullshit pictures and start reading the stickies, and every other thread that has to do with S-12 operation. That's what this forum is about. 

[HB of CJ 1,263]

You might also have a bad batch of Winchester Super X.   Also try some hotter bird shot.  My "Betty Bucker" (S12) seems to prefer at least 3 drams or more of powder.  Try this simple old test.  Place the butt stock against a big tree and shoot the shotgun.  If the thing cycles better, then you know your shoulder is absorbing too much of the energy for proper cycling.  Also understand the my Saiga 12 has 12 different potential gas adjustments.  Three pucks, 4 regulator settings.  Hope this helps.  I for one like your pics.  Just me.

[JDeko 792]

I'll try to keep a better shoulder weld, I thought to myself "I can't possibly be 'limp wristing' it..." but then I remembered the FPS Russia video where he shows an S12 will jam if you don't keep resistance on the stock. 

 

Oddly, these foul-ups seem to happen at the beginning of my range trips as opposed to at the end when my arms are tired and I'd think my shoulder weld would be slipping. Granted, the first time I had FTEs may in fact have been due to the laser being in the way so I'm basing it off one concrete instance and some iffy times. 

 

I mostly wanted to see if there were obvious answer, but I'll begin taking notes now that I test next time I go to the range. I'm always happy to get advice from people who know way more than me on these subjects. 

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

This:

 

 

 

Successful high performance Version 30 builds are virtually identical to successful high perfromance Vepr 12 builds.

 

We do both and guarantee our work.

 

Mike

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Good advice above...

When you get your new FCG from me it should eliminate some of the problem and definitely have a smoother pull.

[gunfun 3,931]

I'll try to keep a better shoulder weld, I thought to myself "I can't possibly be 'limp wristing' it..." but then I remembered the FPS Russia video where he shows an S12 will jam if you don't keep resistance on the stock. 

 

Oddly, these foul-ups seem to happen at the beginning of my range trips as opposed to at the end when my arms are tired and I'd think my shoulder weld would be slipping. Granted, the first time I had FTEs may in fact have been due to the laser being in the way so I'm basing it off one concrete instance and some iffy times. 

 

I mostly wanted to see if there were obvious answer, but I'll begin taking notes now that I test next time I go to the range. I'm always happy to get advice from people who know way more than me on these subjects. 

 

His one appeared to have been built by a monkey. Don't take that video as meaningful.

Also, as I have said often before when the conversation inevitably goes down this bunny trail. If your gas operated gun needs any help from you to cycle, it should have some work done. period.  A gun that only works when you do things exactly right is not a reliable firearm. These guns are either reliable out of the box, or easy to make into reliable firearms.

[JDeko 792]

Ah, that's good to hear that its at least easy to fix if needed. I've been told I tend to rock back a little from the recoil so I was worried that it might be that my "be like water" response to being yanked or shoved might be causing it to foul.

 

Just to whittle down variables, it does seem like I get more FTEs at the beginning than the end. Is there any reason akin to "warming it up" that that might the case or is that a dead-end theory?

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

Do you clean the gas puck after every outing?

[JDeko 792]

I hadn't this time, but it only had 2 rounds worth of soot on it from a poorly gone hunting trip when I went to fire off the rounds that kept not ejecting.

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

If the gas puck is clean, gas can leak around it and not cycle properly. The carbon buildup from repeated shooting acts as a seal. This will especially be noticed when shooting low power loads in a gun that isn't tuned quite right. It would explain why most of your FTE are at the beginning.

[JDeko 792]

After the 75 #2 rounds as well as another 70 or so Remington BB, Super-X BB, and Blindside #1 rounds my Saiga cycled the 100 #6 Super-X shells I shot off at the range yesterday perfectly. Only issues were a couple failures to feed where the LRBHO would trip with one round still in the mag. 

 

Probably going to have to splurge for bigger pellets though, kept knocking the targets off the carriage as well as these not having the recoil that bruises my shoulder and gives me pause to wonder if I'm a masochist. Plus the #6 rounds basically fell out when spent to the point I grabbed a couple empties that rolled out into my fresh ammo pile. After seeing my saiga chuck the 3in magnum Winchester Blindside and Remington rounds like clay pigeons I was pretty disappointed.

[gunfun 3,931]

Shot pellet size has absolutely nothing to do with recoil. It is weight of shot and velocity. We've talked about this before.

[JDeko 792]

Fair enough, I did word it like I forgot that. The shells I was using were only 2 3/4in 1oz loads so that would be the source of the lack of recoil. I also just want to get bigger pellets to less shred my targets and to avoid finding out if they disapprove of me using steel shot indoors. 3rd time I've done it there, and the first time since I learned its about sparks and not about damaging the trap. All and all I'd be better off using buckshot or slugs. 

[gunfun 3,931]

Since you are actually hunting birds now, maybe the solution is to stick to the shot you hunt with and shoot at the clay clubs for play days. Those fast cross leads are tricky and you only get the skill through practice.