XdamagedX 248 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Is there a way to report someone for lying on an ATF1140 purchase form? An insane family member of mine (with a documented history of hospitalization for mental illness) has been arguing with her mother pretty intensely for a few months. She's made it very open that she wants to kill her mom, posted on Facebook that she wanted a gun, and today has finally taken steps forward. She went to a gun store, filled out the 1140 form for OTC sales, SOMEHOW didn't get flagged, and now she has a gun. Police were called, they said they can't do anything. Her mom called again, so the cops showed up, and all they did was give the firearm to the mom. She has a medical marijuana card contrary to 11.3 on the form, I would assume she would have had to answer "NO" on that question for it to go through. As stated earlier, she also has a documented history of mental illness contrary to 11.f. Is there a way to report this? I would have assumed that the local PD would have taken those things into consideration, but it appears they didn't. (looks like gun control and background checks worked in this case too *end sarcasm*) ETA: I meant form 4473 (thanks for noticing DLT) Edited December 9, 2015 by XdamagedX 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Good luck with that one. The trend nowadays is to take the guns away from the law abiding and not worry about the wackos. Edited December 9, 2015 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Hell yeah, I'd be calling the nearest ATF office and possibly saving a life. If the cops and the ATF both won't do anything about a prohibited person, then I'd go so far as to call my local news troubleshooter with that story. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I just convinced the mom to call the ATF hotline. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Good! That is some serious crap right there, especially seeing as how many of these Mass Shooters have been mental cases. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 If you can, remove the gun from the household while this sorts out Best of luck! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 1140? Don't you mean 4473? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james lambert 3,059 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Pretty sure thats what he is referring to Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I did mean 4473. Sorry for the confusion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Tell them she has strong right wing views, is an NRA lifetime member, and a supporter of Trump. They will be beating a path to her front door. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 So you ARE for some form of gun control. (Sorry, I had to.) Good for you! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 So you ARE for some form of gun control. (Sorry, I had to.) Good for you! HAH! Joking aside, I think it's a mental health issue first. If she was in a nuthouse where she belongs, she wouldn't have been able to go to a gun store... or steal one... or straw purchase one 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 So you ARE for some form of gun control. (Sorry, I had to.) Good for you! HAH! Joking aside, I think it's a mental health issue first. If she was in a nuthouse where she belongs, she wouldn't have been able to go to a gun store... or steal one... or straw purchase one Really though, people lie. No form or more legislation will stop that. It takes someone like you who will act on it. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Long Shot 1,287 Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 I'd probably call the FEEBs if they use NICS in your state. She could face felony charges if she lied on the form. Sounds likely she must have lied. + 1 on Jim's advice to remove it from the home if possible. Federal Bureau of Investigation Criminal Justice Information Services Division Attention: Correspondence Group, Module D-2 1000 Custer Hollow Road Clarksburg, WV 26306 Telephone Number: (304) 625-5590 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted December 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 After some convincing, finally got the mom to call. She's the kind of person who wanted to wash her hands and say "I didn't do anything to get my child in trouble". She called the hotline, they gave her the number for the local atf office. The conversation she says she had wasn't very productive (IMHO), but it's better than nothing. Apparently the daughter now has a file and it'll be harder for her to obtain a firearm, but no charges or anything of the like will happen. Seems like they only want the big fish, hopefully she doesn't grow into one. I applauded her and thanked her for finally "getting her hands dirty"... even though this whole situation should have gotten this far to have even happened. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 So let me get this straight... someone who was not a gun owner tried to get one for immoral and criminal purposes. So a responsible gun owner took the proper course of action to prevent a possible crime and tragedy.. That's odd though because I have been told that gun owners are irresponsible ignorant cousin lovers and insane right wing war mongers by the really nice people on my TV screen. Weird.. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Fixed thread title for ya. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nsnate02 32 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 The 4473 says "illegal" drugs. Technically she didn't lie. However, if a restraining order is filled for the threat then she would be flagged during purchase.That is probably the best route anyway. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Both FFLs I've gotten guns from asked me if I had a weed card beforehand, and weed is still illegal federally so she did lie. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 The 4473 says "illegal" drugs. Technically she didn't lie. However, if a restraining order is filled for the threat then she would be flagged during purchase.That is probably the best route anyway. Federal Form.....Federal Law.......Marijuana is still illegal under Federal Law. Medical Marijuana Card holders can automatically be denied from owning firearms. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 "15.9 inch AR? Fingerprints, CLEO sign-off and $200, please. See you in 6 months." "Someone making death threats bought a gun? We'll make it harder for her to buy the next one." Ladies and gentlemen, the ATF. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) As the form reads, she did not lie in 11 e. It clearly inquires "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana.... ". The wording indicates there is a provision buried somewhere that will allow someone to own a firearm while legally using marijuana. She is apparently using it legally in her state of residence, if I am understanding the situation. Whether she is addicted to it would be a matter of opinion. Call a TV station, and clearly state the facts of the matter. Local authorities could not ignore it at that point (if the story aired) and if they did and something happened later on, it would be the story of the day, at least. Edited December 12, 2015 by evlblkwpnz 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) The question that keeps coming to my mind is 11.f. Does she qualify? f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?(See Instructions for Question 11.f. Question 11.f. Adjudicated Mentally Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility. Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution. Please also refer to Question 11.c. for the definition of a prohibited person. EXCEPTION to 11. f. NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 : A person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution is not prohibited if: (1) the person was adjudicated or committed by a department or agency of the Federal Government , such as the United States Department of Veteran’s Affairs (“VA”) (as opposed to a State court, State board, or other lawful State authority); and (2) either: (a) the person’s adjudication or commitment for mental incompetency was set-aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency; ( the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; or © the person was found by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication. Persons who fit this exception should answer “no” to Item 11.f. This exception does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompe- tent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Edited December 12, 2015 by ChileRelleno 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Maybe because I look like wee-a-boob trash [i was wearing half of my Luna cosplay when I picked up my Tok] but the woman at the gun shop repeatedly told me [as she got chicken grease all over my NCIS forms] if I smoke weed I can't own a gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Call a TV station, and clearly state the facts of the matter. Local authorities could not ignore it at that point (if the story aired) and if they did and something happened later on, it would be the story of the day, at least. This, as I stated earlier, contacting your local news troubleshooter. I would think/hope they'd be all over it. But then again, you'd think the same about LE & ATF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 We need more background checks. That'll surely stop her next time 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 The question that keeps coming to my mind is 11.f. Does she qualify? f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes a determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs) OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution? (See Instructions for Question 11.f. Question 11.f. Adjudicated Mentally Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility. Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution. Please also refer to Question 11.c. for the definition of a prohibited person. EXCEPTION to 11. f. NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 : A person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution is not prohibited if: (1) the person was adjudicated or committed by a department or agency of the Federal Government , such as the United States Department of Veteran’s Affairs (“VA”) (as opposed to a State court, State board, or other lawful State authority); and (2) either: (a) the person’s adjudication or commitment for mental incompetency was set-aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency; ( the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; or © the person was found by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication. Persons who fit this exception should answer “no” to Item 11.f. This exception does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompe- tent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Looks like she falls right through that crack too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Fixed thread title for ya. Appreciated. Latest update: Local ATF branch did agree that While Marijuana is illegal on a Federal level, she "technically didn't lie" because she was lawfully using the drug per State regs. Basically said that they would be hard pressed to make an issue out of it, IF they even had the manpower to go forward with investigating this further in the first place. Section 11.f: She was committed as a minor, so that information is sealed. Her therapist felt she was stable enough in the recent past to have taken her off the meds, which doesn't matter anyway because apparently that information isn't accessible via NICS. "15.9 inch AR? Fingerprints, CLEO sign-off and $200, please. See you in 6 months." "Someone making death threats bought a gun? We'll make it harder for her to buy the next one." Ladies and gentlemen, the ATF. THIS. Part of the reason I was so irate (not that I wouldn't have been anyway), is because I've been through the C3 hoops. I have a spotless record, but I still had to be fingerprinted, and get local LEO signature (could have went the trust route, but that's irrelevant here), and wait, and wait, and wait, and all the other garbage I had to go through to get said firearm... and yet we have a VERY obvious case of someone who has ZERO REASON to be in possession of a gun, and they won't step up, EVEN knowing what they know now. Their reply simplified is: it'll flag her next time. So here's someone who acted on an urge to buy a firearm for a malicious use, with a documented trail; what happens next time she's freaking out and STEALS one? (because they wouldn't get off their asses and handle their business). It's frustrating to say the least. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Eagle 839 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Sadly, this happens a lot, and results in someone's life being forever altered by gun violence. I was in a similar situation years back. Wife's friend had a hubby who had a felony conviction for assaulting a cop. She bought a gun, but kept it in her purse. One weekend, she had a diabetic stroke while at our place. I removed her gun from her purse before returning it to her husband. He starts ranting and raving at the hospital that her gun is missing. When the cops arrived, I explained he was a convicted felon, and I would return her firearm once she was released from ther hospital. Cop told me if I didn't hand over the firearm to him, because he was her husband, I would be charged with theft. I was smart enough to remove the bullets, though. A week later, he used it in an armed robbery while she was still in the hospital recovering. Now, she can't own one because they are saying she gave it to him. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 Has the family considered taking the situation into their own bosoms and gently confronting the person in question and sanitising her immediate environment? This would include removing her space of any potential dangerous weapons. Also there is a medical definition difference between being dependant on a drug and being addicted to the same. HB. Retarded FF PM RN. Now just old. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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