SGL 530 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 This guy has quite a few good videos and is a member over at the AK files. I was surprised to see how tight the go-gauge actually was. I've never built a rifle or used these gauges but I would have assumed that if it was this hard to close on a go-gauge that it would be an indicator of a problem. I don't know enough to tell you if all the info in the video is accurate, but I found this interesting so I figured at least a few of you would as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
308SAIGA 55 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 He has no idea, tight loose what?? the difference between the go and no go is the length of the guage.... Headspace is defined as the space or distance between the face of the bolt and a specific predetermined point in or at the chamber. For bottlenecked rimless cartridges like the 30-06, headspace is measured from a point on the chamber's shoulder to the bolt face. https://thecmp.org/training-tech/armorers-corner/headspace/ Do not listen to unproffessionals.. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Wow! I hope this guy has good liability malpractice insurance! That was most certainly NOT the way I was taught. But ... I could have been taught wrong also. But I do not think so. The video is so wrong on so many things. Just me. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 It should close with just enough pressure for the bolt to rotate. Correct? That looks like a problem waiting to happen. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I believe they're suppose to close with somewhere around 30-35lb-ft, IIRC. I think that guy has built quite a few AK's and has a good sense of what he's doing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Yep ... in my humble opinion (lots of times wrong) he used way way too much pressure. He was over forcing things. Also he failed to apparently lube up the bolt locking lugs. Also failed to rotate the head space gages at least ten (10) times per revolution of the gage to get a statistically valid reading, each time testing. Also if done correctly he does not need to strip the bolt. Also failed to de lube, clean and dry the chamber first. So on, so on. When we built AR15s years ago we used seven (7) gages when hand reaming the final head space. Perhaps I am being over critical. Just me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unit2814 3 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 You should watch some Ginsboy's vids , you'll like his method . 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) I did the "metal tape method", like Ginsboy. The head-space in that build is a bit tighter than my Saiga of the same caliber. I used three layers of metal tape (assuming .001 each) I'd guess my 5.45 Saiga probably has another .002 of forgiveness. When I worked in aerospace I could visually see .003 difference! Not anymore. Edited December 14, 2015 by Sim_Player Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 It should close with just enough pressure for the bolt to rotate. Correct? That looks like a problem waiting to happen. You have a minimum and a maximum depth, which leaves a range that it will work in. It's pretty common practice to disassemble the bolt. I did when I headspaced my Saiga, when I swapped barrels. I also pushed on the carrier to close it on a go gauge (albeit not quite as much pressure as he used). Many many rounds later and have not experienced any issues. Nor did I lube the locking lugs, or rotate the gauge during fitment. I run my bolt locking lugs dry, don't know why I'd test head spacing with an element I wouldn't use in day to day operation. I also tested with 4 different live rounds, GT, Tula, Wolf MC and BB. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Firing pin and extractor claw MUST be removed! Clean and LIGHTLY lube chamber and locking lugs. Use no more force than you can exert with ONE OILY FINGER! FORCING a headspace gauge can RUIN THE GAUGE! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Respectfully. It is possible AKs have their own little different ways of going together, but testing and determining head space should be presented the same regardless of the weapon platform. This same AK builder guy actually made videos using loaded ammo as head space gages? Please do not tell me he did. Now I see several errors in his presentation of determining established head space with an AK. I do not know exactly how to respond to this other than to politely suggest he may be doing it wrong. You can test to determine if you need to strip the bolt or not. Very basic gunsmithing. And it is possible I have it wrong and he has it right. But I do not think so. A thin layer of light oil on the lugs is a very good idea. It helps establish a repeatable data base if the same methods are used. Anyhow, interesting videos. About the same things apply with the few and horrible videos I have seen building your own AR15. Am I an expert? No. But very knowledgeable. Most of the AR15 build videos are almost criminal in their lack of knowledge. Now I see a AK build video that is about the same. But we all know it is the Internet and everything presented here is the absolute truth. Me included? Yikes indeed! Well over 200 AR15 builds. Uncounted assisted beater M16 rebuilds. Long ago and far away. Are we now THAT OLD! Aughhhh! Respectfully. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) I have about a dozen AK builds under my belt, including a couple builds with new US barrels... What was shown in the video is not the exact way I do it, but I have no particular objection to his method, either. The important thing is that the bolt closes on the go gauge, and will not close on the no-go gauge. Given how many AK builders have never used a headspace gauge and will vociferously dispute the need for them, this guy goes to the head of the class. Based on the comments here I expected to find fault with his method, but when I watched the video that was not the case. Depending on what standard his gauges are, there may be no such thing as too tight anyway. I have both SAAMI and CIP spec gauges in 7.62x39, and most of my rifles won't chamber the SAAMI go gauge, but will chamber the CIP go gauge just fine. And CIP is the more correct standard anyway. The gauges in the video look a lot like my PTG SAAMI gauges. Edited December 13, 2015 by Netpackrat 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 As a makeshift gauge I used a spent cartridge. Not exact, I know, but with the elongation of the brass, if it can't close on it somethings wrong! I'd gauge every M16 that way after cleaning to check that there were no problems if a bolt got swapped. Made a trade with the AF for a gauge for some M60D parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Respectfully. It is possible AKs have their own little different ways of going together, but testing and determining head space should be presented the same regardless of the weapon platform. This same AK builder guy actually made videos using loaded ammo as head space gages? Please do not tell me he did. Now I see several errors in his presentation of determining established head space with an AK. I do not know exactly how to respond to this other than to politely suggest he may be doing it wrong. You can test to determine if you need to strip the bolt or not. Very basic gunsmithing. And it is possible I have it wrong and he has it right. But I do not think so. A thin layer of light oil on the lugs is a very good idea. It helps establish a repeatable data base if the same methods are used. Anyhow, interesting videos. About the same things apply with the few and horrible videos I have seen building your own AR15. Am I an expert? No. But very knowledgeable. Most of the AR15 build videos are almost criminal in their lack of knowledge. Now I see a AK build video that is about the same. But we all know it is the Internet and everything presented here is the absolute truth. Me included? Yikes indeed! Well over 200 AR15 builds. Uncounted assisted beater M16 rebuilds. Long ago and far away. Are we now THAT OLD! Aughhhh! Respectfully. The M16/AR15 is a different animal. It is a rifle. The AK is not. There is no comparison in purposed mechanics or maintenance. Edited December 14, 2015 by Sim_Player 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) that's the ten year old method Edited December 14, 2015 by Stryker0946 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) I'd like someone to post up what the proper way to headspace an AK is. I really didn't see any issue with the video (stripped bolt, gauge and live round for go, and gauge for no go). He did seem a bit rough when checking with the gauges, but it closed with little effort on the live round. Most of my kit builds were parts matching factory barrel, a few were not. I've always used a stripped bolt and Manson CIP and several brands of cases with pulled bullets for Go, and Manson CIP for No Go and Field. I've always read that SAAMI gauges (US spec) were tighter to close on which leads me to believe that's what he was using. Over the years several places (AK Builder comes to mind as one) sell propagated US barrel's pre-headspace in the trunion and I highly doubt Curtis is installing trunions in a slave receiver and using a bolt carrier. I'm at a loss on this one unless the flaw was a SAAMI gauge leading to a loose headspace on a live round. FWIW- I also have matching sets of Go/No Go in Clymer 30-06 (New) and .380 Auto,.410, and 20ga if anyone would like to trade I'd like 5.45x39 or 7.62x54r. Edited December 14, 2015 by 6500rpm 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) I'd like someone to post up what the proper way to headspace an AK is. I really didn't see any issue with the video (stripped bolt, gauge and live round for go, and gauge for no go). He did seem a bit rough when checking with the gauges, but it closed with little effort on the live round. Most of my kit builds were parts matching factory barrel, a few were not. I've always used a stripped bolt and Manson CIP and several brands of cases with pulled bullets for Go, and Manson CIP for No Go and Field. I've always read that SAAMI gauges (US spec) were tighter to close on which leads me to believe that's what he was using. Over the years several places (AK Builder comes to mind as one) sell propagated US barrel's pre-headspace in the trunion and I highly doubt Curtis is installing trunions in a slave receiver and using a bolt carrier. I'm at a loss on this one unless the flaw was a SAAMI gauge leading to a loose headspace on a live round. There is a huge debate as to what's right and what is not. from all sides and everyone knows the best way to do it. The results all seem to be the same though. Safely working and reliably feeding, AK's. It would be nice if he edited that video and disclosed what type of gauges he used. Edited December 14, 2015 by Mullet Man Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 I would debate that statement "safely working and reliably feeding AKs." Something will always work just before it stops ... or blows up. Using loaded ammo as head space gages? Please give me a break. Kinda like using hacksaw blades to set up finished main bearing clearances in your latest Chevy SB build. So much can go wrong. So much is not determinable repeatable and accurate. But like already said ... the AK is NOT a rifle. Exactly what it is I am not quite sure but I love mine, they seem to work OK and who knows how they were built on a Vodka Monday Morning in good old Russia. Yikes!! Perhaps we do not want to know. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 He also used headspace gauges, not just "headspaced with loaded ammo". It closed on Go, WOULDN'T close on No Go and then closed like it should, on live rounds. That dude has many safely working and reliably feeding AK's, there is no disputing that. My method (the only time I've ever done it) was very close to his and I have a safe working and reliably feeding AK, there's no disputing that, either. "Something will always work just before it stops...or blows up". Can there be anymore ambiguity in a statement? Again, everyone thinks their way is right. It's just dick measuring, given the outcomes of the different methods (documented many times over on forums like the AKFiles), producing positive results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 In fact something will always work just before it stops ... or blows up. It can even be stated further in saying it will run really good or just great or the best it has even run or felt .... just before it blows. Using loaded cartridges for ANY head space checking is so not advised. Using loaded cartridges as a function test before firing is also not a good idea. Using dummy rounds that have been check for proper size and stuff make much more safety sense. I for one am amazed that so many people CHOOSE to use dangerous techniques building a rifle. But hey ... it is your eyes, face and hands so go for it. This post is harsh and it is meant to be. Think safety everybody. My intent is to possibly save somebody. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 In fact something will always work just before it stops ... or blows up. It can even be stated further in saying it will run really good or just great or the best it has even run or felt .... just before it blows. Using loaded cartridges for ANY head space checking is so not advised. Using loaded cartridges as a function test before firing is also not a good idea. Using dummy rounds that have been check for proper size and stuff make much more safety sense. I for one am amazed that so many people CHOOSE to use dangerous techniques building a rifle. But hey ... it is your eyes, face and hands so go for it. This post is harsh and it is meant to be. Think safety everybody. My intent is to possibly save somebody. Of course something works before it stops or blows up. I completely agree with you. But that's what makes that statement odd.... everything works before it stops or blows up. So I'm not sure what you're getting at? I get the safety Nazi thing. But seriously? A stripped bolt and absolutely no parts of a fire control group are in place. I mean, I guess it's still dangerous.....? Be careful! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) I am still not communicating. My fault I guess. What I am trying to say is that if unsafe techniques are employed building a rifle, it is quite likely that the rifle MAY not be safe. The video showed some buy showing how to properly check head space using head space gages. In my personal opinion the techniques shown on that video were not safe. He used too much force. He did not rotate the gage 10 times checking each time to determine an average reading. He did not use multiple gages. He did not show visually inspecting the bolt or chamber. He did not clean the chamber. He did not dye and inspect the lug contact. He did not gently lube or inspect the bolt locking lugs or the lugs on the trunion (sp?) or barrel extension. He did not show using proper non loaded dummy rounds to check hand cycled rifle function. What else did I miss? It is possible he has it correct and I have it wrong, but I feel comfy enough to be typing this. My opinion only. Yikes! Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. Somebody had to do it. Edit by HB. It is quite possible that I am just pissed right now because all of our Eoteck scopes may be shit. No way of knowing. Sosss .... tomorrow they all go back to the factory. We will see if we get purchase price back but how are they going to determine that? Yes I am switching subjects. Sorry. I hate it when shit happens. Edited December 15, 2015 by HB of CJ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 This is a great opportunity for someone to make a video displaying better technique. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) One thing you will notice when reading a lot of accounts from more knowledgeable members on AKfiles and other forums, is that even on factory-new AK rilfes, headspace can sometimes be all over the place. As an example, some are so tight (esp. Romanian) that they may barely close on a GO gauge. One highly respected member on Akfiles (allesengowatt) has stated his preferred method is from the IMI Galil armorer's manuals. IMI recommends that the stripped bolt & carrier closes on a GO gauge with mild thumb pressure against the charging handle, rather than closing effortlessly on the GO gauge. This will account for gradual lug wear-in and should still remain within spec for potentially higher round counts, while not putting the chamber so tight that it is out of spec and too short to begin with. That technique is about the same as what you're seeing here.. But yet I still see guys suggesting that the bolt should just slide into battery like butter on a GO gauge. Even when the lockup is this tight on a GO gauge, understand that a NO-GO gauge will still begin to enter into rotation by a fraction of a turn. That gives you an idea of how narrow the tolerance range is in a practical way that can be understood. For sure, there are a lot of AK builders out there who do not care about using gauges, and will consider it GTG as long as it chambers and ejects a live round. FWIW I have done the "tape trick" on an SKS that I rebarreled, and ended up with good results, but I would probably not do it again. Edited December 15, 2015 by mancat 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 FWIW- I also have matching sets of Go/No Go in Clymer 30-06 (New) and .380 Auto,.410, and 20ga if anyone would like to trade I'd like 5.45x39 or 7.62x54r. Buying a gauge for 7.62x54R is truly a waste of money since it headspaces on the rim. In fact, the "real" gauge in that caliber is just a rim with a short plug attached. IIRC (look this up somewhere to verify), no-go for 7.62x54R is .071" That just happens to be a thickness that 4130 steel sheet is available in from places like Aircraft Spruce. When my brother and I built our PSLs, for a no-go gauge I made a disk out of a piece of .071" 4130 left over from my airplane project, and made sure the bolt would not close on it. Then as long as it chambers live ammo, headspace is good to go. There's absolutely no point to a "go" gauge for 54R because the only part of the chamber you are checking is the rim. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 It is a rifle. The AK is not. There is no comparison in purposed mechanics or maintenance. The M16/AR15 is a different animal. I have exactly one AR-15... It hasn't shot a group this tight yet, and I'm still trying to troubleshoot why it FTEs without the can attached (even with supersonic ammo). If I didn't want to play with Blackout, I wouldn't even own one of the stupid things in the first place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 This is a great opportunity for someone to make a video displaying a different technique. FTFY 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 Some good points are coming out that I typically don't think about, I've never ran across turning the gauge but it can't hurt. On a ORF receiver Galil build I did find issues with the bolt lug surface of the receiver. On that build with a stripped bolt out of the carrier, you could visually see the tail of the bolt cocked at an angle when locked into battery and required lapping the lugs. That was a good case for the use of Dykem on the lugs to verify proper contact. That's not a step I typically take, but once again, it's simple and can give you a visual to show the lugs are contacting evenly. Netpackrat, I do have one of the 54r No Go gauges you spoke about that I used on a couple Mosin's before buying. I'm starting to play with a PSL build and one of the members over at the Files is doing the chamber end cuts for me on a donor Finnish Mosin barrel. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the function of the "safety ring" the PSL incorporates at the chamber mouth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 Always check the load share of the locking lugs with dyechem or a blue sharpie BEFORE head spacing! ( new , old no difference, check luges BEFORE taking gauges out) I believe you should JUST 'feel' the gauge on a go gauge. You should not FORCE a no-go gauge, one oiled finger should not get you more than 75% rotation. On a precision build 25% rotation for the no-go. For cheching a working gun, as long the no-go does not rotate 100% it is good to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted December 15, 2015 Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) Some good points are coming out that I typically don't think about, I've never ran across turning the gauge but it can't hurt. On a ORF receiver Galil build I did find issues with the bolt lug surface of the receiver. On that build with a stripped bolt out of the carrier, you could visually see the tail of the bolt cocked at an angle when locked into battery and required lapping the lugs. That was a good case for the use of Dykem on the lugs to verify proper contact. That's not a step I typically take, but once again, it's simple and can give you a visual to show the lugs are contacting evenly. Netpackrat, I do have one of the 54r No Go gauges you spoke about that I used on a couple Mosin's before buying. I'm starting to play with a PSL build and one of the members over at the Files is doing the chamber end cuts for me on a donor Finnish Mosin barrel. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the function of the "safety ring" the PSL incorporates at the chamber mouth. The problem here is a lot of the Euro AK factories appear to set final headspace by grinding on the lugs, and often end up with uneven contact against the trunnion. I'm not sure why or how this is, it's probably a division of labor issue. One worker probably presses the barrel until it fits up against a jig similar to a GO gauge, then the barrel is pinned, and passed on to another worker who fine tunes the headspace if it's too tight. That's my only guess, because I've seen brand new Euro AKs where the bolt locking lugs were obviously ground or filed. Edited December 15, 2015 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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