Any 3-gun competitors here?

[Fobos 0]

Just curious to see if any of you use an S12 for 3-gun matches, and what your results have been.

 

 

I've been using a Mossy 500A SP. My S12 didn't get any action last year because I hadn't acquired enough mags and didn't have the required conversion for use of the 8rd'ers. I'll be getting the modifications and upgrades done (definately through Tromix) in the upcoming months in preparation for this years matches. I'm pretty excited about seeing what I can do with the S12 in competition.

 

 

Here's my loadout (pending the modifications to the Saiga)... loadout

[topmaul 42]

There are a few three gunners here, although I'm not that good, but in a match with a fairly long shotgun stage I find that I can make up a lot of ground.

[Fobos 0]

The shotgun stage has always been where I've lost all of my ground. I've always placed 1st or 2nd in the pistol stages, and very high in the rifle stages. My overall placement has been 2nd (overall) every time.

 

I do need to improve a bit with the rifle (10-15sec.), and I'm constantly training with my pistol, but I've always been at a disadvantage with my pump-action shotty. There are guys on the field who sport semi-auto's (10 shell capacity) in concert with speed loaders. There's no way I can keep up with them with my Mossy. I think the advantage I get with the Saiga will make it possible for me to get to that elusive 1st place.

[mikey1 0]

I think we are all waitin' on the S-12 mags. Make sure you have the BHOpen (see Jeric) It WILL help a lot!The local people in my area like to shoot "tactical" and I have not been any competition for them w/ the S-20, they are not impressed so far. (My skill level is lacking at this point).mikey1

[topmaul 42]

See I'm just the oppsite I really stink with the pistol and okay with the rifle but with the Saiga I make up some time, the longer the SG stages the better it is for me and my Russian Girlfriend. At our local monthly Tac shotgun matches the "Team Saiga" shooters are in solid top 5, in fact at our last few matches Saigas will be in 3 out of the top five places. When I shoot 3 gun I'm pretty much at the bottom. I guess I need to get out and shoot more IDPA or something. Last match I think we had 7 saiga shooters and we were all in the top ten.

 

The Saiga like anything else takes some getting used to but once you master it you have it made. Most shooters I know do not use the bold lock simply hold the bolt back incert the fresh mag. I used to latch it back but there is really no reason to do it. I use it now to show the RO that the weapon is clear.

 

If your as good as you say with the rifle and pistol, devote some time to your Saiga and your the winner no question.

[inparidel 4]

Been using the Saiga all through it's various transformations during and after the "ban." I use it in IPSC shotgun as well as 3-gun. Except for onew guy that has an 1100 goose gun with a tube mag that goes to the muzzle (like 10 rds.) and speed loaders, I destroy everyone else. I even got the 1100 guy once BADLY too.

[raygun 0]

After I got my Saiga converted to a 12"SBS I've used it in two 3-matchs. I will be using it in more matchs as the weather improves.

 

I'm not a top competitor by any means, but I would say that I did as well or better than when I was using a Maveric 88 pump.

 

The only trick to using the Saiga in competition is doing smooth reloads.

Get some snap caps and practice your reloads.

[steve467 0]

I use the S12 for 3-gun, but my local club likes to do stupid stuff on the shotgun stage like, "run to the first barrel, loads two rounds and engage, then run to the next barrel, load three slugs and engage..." very Saiga unfriendly. As a result I get killed on the Shotgun stages due to reloading mags mid-stage. I'm the only one who shows up with a Saiga so they aren't going to change their "tube-fed" ways just for me unfortunately. If there is anyone in cental texas who wants to try 3-gun with a Saiga let me know.

[fullchoke 0]

I use the S12 for 3-gun, but my local club likes to do stupid stuff on the shotgun stage like, "run to the first barrel, loads two rounds and engage, then run to the next barrel, load three slugs and engage..." very Saiga unfriendly. As a result I get killed on the Shotgun stages due to reloading mags mid-stage. I'm the only one who shows up with a Saiga so they aren't going to change their "tube-fed" ways just for me unfortunately. If there is anyone in cental texas who wants to try 3-gun with a Saiga let me know.

 

Steve

Let me agree with you this kind of thing turns "practical shooting" impractical shooting, that said would think the best thing to do is get involved with your gun club and volunteer to plan a few courses of fire for the next match. Below is a link that can help you make professional diagrams.

 

http://www.gunracer.com/stagebuilder.htm#scroll

Edited February 19, 2006 by fullchoke

[stimpsonjcat 0]

StageCAD owns!

 

 

 

You can stand, kneel, and go prone, 'fire' rounds from any position, and check to see where bullet impacts will be. Prop reports, distances, etc.

 

Oh, having to load rounds as you move is a pain for the Saiga. Really, any stage that requires us to reload beyond what we brought is deadly, and every mag drop costs you a round out of the mag, assuming you are retaining them.

 

Our local 3-gun usually has about 18 clays and then 4-5 plates to drop with slugs. I just load a 5 round mag with slugs, knock down what I can with the shotty, and drop any extras with the pistol.

[kmoore 3]

I use the S12 for 3-gun, but my local club likes to do stupid stuff on the shotgun stage like, "run to the first barrel, loads two rounds and engage, then run to the next barrel, load three slugs and engage..." very Saiga unfriendly. As a result I get killed on the Shotgun stages due to reloading mags mid-stage. I'm the only one who shows up with a Saiga so they aren't going to change their "tube-fed" ways just for me unfortunately. If there is anyone in cental texas who wants to try 3-gun with a Saiga let me know.

 

Tell them to grow up or you'll move to a more progressive club. Trying to handicap you because you have a better shotgun is childish.

 

We saw some of that in VA for a while, but the trend here followed the national trend. They just put us in a seperate class (we belong there, we ARE a better class/shotgun). Tell them to grow a pair , suck it up, and get used to the idea that a mag fed shotty is going to outshine their std shotguns in many situations.

 

There are lots of other things they could do. Belly fed guns usually cap out at 10 rounds. I've seen 10 round stages. Of course, the domestic mags are going to even that out real soon. Even 11 or 12 favors a belly fed gun if the operator has his reloads down. Select slug drills favor the benelli's, other belly fed guns do ok there too.

 

Tell them if you want to be micromanaged you could go to work in corporate america.

[Bvamp 604]

cool.

[Ronswin 26]

I use the S12 for 3-gun, but my local club likes to do stupid stuff on the shotgun stage like, "run to the first barrel, loads two rounds and engage, then run to the next barrel, load three slugs and engage..." very Saiga unfriendly. As a result I get killed on the Shotgun stages due to reloading mags mid-stage. I'm the only one who shows up with a Saiga so they aren't going to change their "tube-fed" ways just for me unfortunately. If there is anyone in cental texas who wants to try 3-gun with a Saiga let me know.

 

You can always ask if this shotgun stage is limited to double barrel/over and under guns only. If they say no then ask them the logic in engaging a string of targets with less than what your magazine will hold. After all, nobody I know downloads his defense weapons from full mag to two rounds only.

 

RonSwin

[kogashuko 17]

People do dickish stuff like that so they dont have to change something they do. Sort of like that calibrating the steel for 308 I was telling you about.

[topmaul 42]

Check out that Tactical Shooting Academy, in thier rule book Magazine fed shotguns are specificly allowed. In other words they want to see what works best and are not afraid to try something new infact they rally want to see the Saiga in action. Face it for combat tube fed shotguns are obsilite, I could not envision a defensive or offensive senerio where I would rather have a tube fed anything over my Saiga! Just like Flintlocks when percussion caps arrived. Or smoke less powder, this is one of those times where technology is advancing with or with out those die hard flintlock shooters.

 

Also I have been in a stage where the ammo was in the box which was in the trunk of a car so the shooters have to get out of the car run to the trunk retrieve and load your gun then take out the targets. Of course it takes longer to load mags but with all the Saiga friendly stages out there I don't mind. If I was in a combat area my gun would not be in the trunk unloaded but something like that could happen on the way to a match.

[Ronswin 26]

People do dickish stuff like that so they dont have to change something they do. Sort of like that calibrating the steel for 308 I was telling you about.

 

Roger that! KMoore and I saw several examples of these immature/obstinate types of stage planning and once when I confronted a match director about this His reply was along the lines of "you Saiga guys have such an advantage..." I replied back that some century ago someone said the same thing about muzzleloaders versus those newfangled lever-action rifles.

I'm also betting that revolvers will not make a comeback and eventually replace my Para Ord P-16 in 3-gun competitions!

 

RonSwin

[topmaul 42]

Ron, I bet those guys still use a Commador 64 too,

[Ronswin 26]

Ron, I bet those guys still use a Commador 64 too,

 

 

 

 

RonSwin

[kmoore 3]

Unfortunately, the local 3 gun scene has diminished the shotgun portions. When we were allowed to use the upper range they'd set up 25-35 round stages.

 

As it now is, Saiga = open, so you are competing against speed loaders, but also against open pistols (comps and dots) and rifles (brakes and multiple optics). I don't care so much, I'm looking at the overall standings anyway so I compete as much against them as everyone, in my mind.

[Ronswin 26]

Check out that Tactical Shooting Academy, in thier rule book Magazine fed shotguns are specificly allowed. In other words they want to see what works best and are not afraid to try something new infact they rally want to see the Saiga in action. Face it for combat tube fed shotguns are obsilite, I could not envision a defensive or offensive senerio where I would rather have a tube fed anything over my Saiga! Just like Flintlocks when percussion caps arrived. Or smoke less powder, this is one of those times where technology is advancing with or with out those die hard flintlock shooters.

 

Also I have been in a stage where the ammo was in the box which was in the trunk of a car so the shooters have to get out of the car run to the trunk retrieve and load your gun then take out the targets. Of course it takes longer to load mags but with all the Saiga friendly stages out there I don't mind. If I was in a combat area my gun would not be in the trunk unloaded but something like that could happen on the way to a match.

 

I read some time back on the Tactical Shooting Academy website forum that D.R. said something to the effect that the Saiga 12 was interesting but, had no real value competition or combat!!??! His Forum is now updated from the original and the comment cannot be found. He also states how the Remington 1100 is the fastest most softest shooting shotgun out there. Notice he does not mention what a jamma-matic the 1100 can be unless the grey o-ring is replaced by the purple 0-ring by the square o-ring, etcetera.

If Mr. Fistfire needs convincing ask him to show up at Norfolk for the next shotgun match. We have been convincing people there for awhile now.

 

Ronswin

[topmaul 42]

I kind of wanting Team FistFire to come down to Oxford in March to see what they can do. There is little doubt who rules the roost at NCRR. As a group Saiga shooters are a solid block with in the top ten shooters!! Maybe D.R. can come down and show us "no tactical or combat use" Saiga guys how things should be done?

 

NCRR tactical Shotgun matches have three divisions http://ncrr.net/IDPA/Events/Shotgun/match.htm

 

Pump = flintlocks

 

Auto = percussion cap

 

Open = advanced, including Saigas, or a gun equiped with speed loaders, optics

 

I have seen pumps with optics but they stay in the pump division still have not figured that one out but so what they can't catch us. I hope some one shows up with a Knoxx Drum on a pump some day.

 

Ron, maybe we should issue a challenge D.R. think we can take him?

[Ronswin 26]

I kind of wanting Team FistFire to come down to Oxford in March to see what they can do. There is little doubt who rules the roost at NCRR. As a group Saiga shooters are a solid block with in the top ten shooters!! Maybe D.R. can come down and show us "no tactical or combat use" Saiga guys how things should be done?

 

NCRR tactical Shotgun matches have three divisions http://ncrr.net/IDPA/Events/Shotgun/match.htm

 

Pump = flintlocks

 

Auto = percussion cap

 

Open = advanced, including Saigas, or a gun equiped with speed loaders, optics

 

I have seen pumps with optics but they stay in the pump division still have not figured that one out but so what they can't catch us. I hope some one shows up with a Knoxx Drum on a pump some day.

 

Ron, maybe we should issue a challenge D.R. think we can take him?

 

John,

It would probably be a waste of time. If you beat him in a stage or even a match he would probably produce some reason why the Saiga-12 is not practical. I've looked at some of the threads you've got on that forum and basically it's "I'm D.R. any your not!" There is a reason that his forum is less than a year old and maybe 20 members posting.

 

RonSwin

[SinistralRifleman 0]

I thought magazine fed shotguns automatically shoot in open class at most matches? If so, I don't know why other people would complain.

 

I am not adverse to stages that will show the shortcomings of various types of equipment. The ability to quickly switch back and forth between loads is something magazine fed shotguns simply don't have. If you want to be fast you need to pre-load your magazines in the order you need the shot/slugs.

[Ronswin 26]

I thought magazine fed shotguns automatically shoot in open class at most matches? If so, I don't know why other people would complain.

 

I am not adverse to stages that will show the shortcomings of various types of equipment. The ability to quickly switch back and forth between loads is something magazine fed shotguns simply don't have. If you want to be fast you need to pre-load your magazines in the order you need the shot/slugs.

 

Welcome Sinistral to the Saiga 12 forum. Not all 3-gun matches "classify" competitors as USSPA or IDPA matches do. Some "tactical" matches have a single "Ironman" class which is .30 cal rifle, pump 12 ga. and .45 single stack auto pistol.

Select slug drills and buck/bird alternation in stages can be done with a little planning and preloading of the magazine correctly for the Saiga 12. Tactically speaking only, I question the wisdom of alternating loads in a combat shotgun. I cannot envision an after action review where it goes " Yeah, It was a bad situation and I was about to empty all 9 rounds of 00 buck at the bad guys and I stopped midway though a magazine loaded a slug or two and kept shooting at them." But, then again, this is competition.

 

RonSwin

[kogashuko 17]

I get angry at stages like that too. I can understand ending a stage with a shot at a fake engine block with a slug or something but not switching back and forth over and over. Another one of my petpeives is the matches that have you start with 6 rounds in your semi and every reload is 6.

[Ronswin 26]

I get angry at stages like that too. I can understand ending a stage with a shot at a fake engine block with a slug or something but not switching back and forth over and over. Another one of my petpeives is the matches that have you start with 6 rounds in your semi and every reload is 6.

 

Yup! I know what you mean Koga. The match director must have been thinking "O.K. after engaging T-1 through T-10 discard your still loaded high-cap 9mm pistol and engage T-11 through T-28 with your .38 cal. revolver only!!??!!"

 

RonSwin

[SinistralRifleman 0]

Welcome Sinistral to the Saiga 12 forum. Not all 3-gun matches "classify" competitors as USSPA or IDPA matches do. Some "tactical" matches have a single "Ironman" class which is .30 cal rifle, pump 12 ga. and .45 single stack auto pistol.

Select slug drills and buck/bird alternation in stages can be done with a little planning and preloading of the magazine correctly for the Saiga 12. Tactically speaking only, I question the wisdom of alternating loads in a combat shotgun. I cannot envision an after action review where it goes " Yeah, It was a bad situation and I was about to empty all 9 rounds of 00 buck at the bad guys and I stopped midway though a magazine loaded a slug or two and kept shooting at them." But, then again, this is competition.

 

RonSwin

 

Thanks for the welcome. I am very familiar with practical action matches as I compete in them around the country. You are right there probably are some club level matches where shooters are not seperated based on equipment they are using, and simple heads up scoring is used. In this cases even more so...who cares, just shoot and have fun. I don't understand why people would care about being beaten by a shooter using more advanced equipment at a club level match when there aren't cash or prizes on the line.

 

At our 3 gun match in Waco, TX last year I designed a stage that would intentionally screw with mag fed shooters unless they thought about what they were doing. There were 30 or so clays, and 5 paper targets. The shooter had to engage at least one clay with shot and one paper target with a slug from each of the 5 shooting positions...they could engage all the other targets from wherever they liked. Alex Wakal using his USAS-12 won the stage by beginning with 1 slug in the chamber and a drum full of bird shot, he took the one slug shot from the first position and engaged all the other visible clays he could. Moving to position two he switched to a magazine loaded alternating shot-slug-shot-slug and used this at the last 4 shooting positions. I believe he loaded one magazine of shot to finish at the last position. Stages that require changing loads, you just need to think unconventionally.

 

I just picked up a Saiga-12 (has to go back to RAA for the barrel issue), and I am looking forward to shooting with it in competitions. I had previously experimented with speed-loaders, and gave up on them. A reliable mag fed shotgun might make shooting in open worth while.

[topmaul 42]

What tactical reason is there for such a stage? I usually plan out my reloads and know when to switch types of shot. It's really no sweat if you do pre-planning, loading of mags, and proper exicution of the plan. I agree with Ron.

 

I for one am never going to be a world class competitor but I enjoy my local matches, mostly the SG matches.

Edited February 21, 2006 by topmaul

[kmoore 3]

errr, you guys do realize that Daniel Horner wins most of these local shotgun matchs, and a lot National level shooting events of all types. And that he trained under DR since the beginning?

 

Of course, he could beat most shooters with a slingshot and a bag of birdshot. The real question is how much difference for the same shooter. i.e. When (not if) Daniel picks up a Saiga as his competition shotgun (and practices), what would his scores look like if he shoots a stage with both shotgun.

 

 

Sinistral, I'll bet you made Alex's day allowing that 20 round drum! I'm guessing that there are lots of times where it's prohibited, or where the course would not benefit from it.

 

I saw the video of that stage and many others. On that stage I didn't know the requirement, and didn't know how Alex had prep'd and planned, and I couldn't figure WHAT was going on. I thin I need to spend more time "out of the box"

 

Good to have you join the ranks of the mag fed shotties. I really believe that 10 round mags will convert some of the top level shooters, and when magwells are developed (and it's inevitiable) that the rest of the top shooters will ditch the speed loaders. Don't know if you've seen the video of the Finn's but they rock a field with higher cap mags, magwells, brakes and optics. I think they've defined the future of open class shotgunning. I'm a little surprised one of the top dogs hasn't put a gunsmith to work making this happen yet. Whoever gets their first/best is going to become the STI of competitive shotgunning. All IMHO of course.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

Sinistral, I'll bet you made Alex's day allowing that 20 round drum! I'm guessing that there are lots of times where it's prohibited, or where the course would not benefit from it.

 

Unlike a lot of other matches...Open is truly open, there are no restrictions on equipment (other than minimum calibers) unless it is a safety issue.

 

Trooper class is even more open in that you are allowed to reconfigure your guns and use multiple guns throughout the match, so long as you carry them with you from the start of the match, along with all your ammo, spare parts, cleaning equipment, snacks, etc.