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Multiple FTEs with Sluggers and Federal Slugs


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Went to the range today and shot off 60 slugs, quite a few kept getting caught in the bolt [open end sticking out perpendicular to the receiver] as well as a few failure to feeds. Most of which just required me to yank the bolt back and then let go [i tend to ride my hand on the bolt when charging it] but one jammed rather bad where the mag didn't want to release but the round wouldn't feed either. When I finally got it out the plastic was a little chewed but it eventually fired. 

 

I just bought some Hoppe's from the range and a cleaning kit with a long handle, I've only put about 500 rounds through it and cleaned it with oil a few times in that span. I plan to go to a gunsmith tomorrow anyway but I'm wondering if there is anything I could do now that might fix the feeding issue to save money [going to have my Vepr mag fitted, figured I'd have the smith look at the feeding issue whilst its there].

 

I appreciate all the help I get here quite a lot.

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The first thing you should check for is lead fouling in the gas system. If there are any burrs in the barrel from enlarging the gas ports, they will shave lead off slugs as they pass the ports, and the shavings will melt and accumulate in the ports, the gas block, and the grooves in the gas puck. If you don't remove it, it will be nearly impossible to rotate the gas plug even with the detent pressed, and the gas puck will be very difficult to move--you may need a metal punch to get it out for cleaning.

 

Shake your gun. If you can't hear the gas puck rattle, you probably have a bad case of lead fouling.

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Gas plug does not rattle as doesn't seem to want to come out.

 

It also came to mind that I shot 60 slugs and am not that bruised so possibly really reduced recoil could be a symptom? 

Edited by JDeko
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I'm not sure if my gas puck ever really "rattled" either the original or the CSS one I have in now and I'm not sure how easy the factory one was to get out in retrospect. I think I got the factory one out by bonking the butt on the cement floor in my basement whereas I'm tapping the gas block with a rubber mallet on my padded case and on padded carpet. It'll go from the front of the block to the edge but just doesn't want to fall out.

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Doesn't the operating rod have a 'finger', which is used to grab the hollow puck and pull it out, like a Vepr12? 

 

Also does it malfunction with the OE puck? How many rounds ago did you install the CSS puck?


The gas puck should slide out by gravity alone when clean. Pull the bolt carrier and push it out with a dowel.

 

It's a non adjustable 030 gun which means the gas block does not open up by removing the regulator. It's closed off just like an AK rifle, or Vepr12.

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It's a non adjustable 030 gun which means the gas block does not open up by removing the regulator. It's closed off just like an AK rifle, or Vepr12.

I'm confused then. How did you install the CSS puck, if you didn't unscrew the gas plug from the front of the gas block?

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You remove the bolt carrier and gas tube then remove the puck. There is no gas regulator to unscrew on a 030 model. 030's have a removable gas tube just like a rifle or Vepr12

Edited by Mullet Man
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Deko, the first thing you need to do is pull the piston out (you can use a hooked pick to do this). You will probably find a solid "biscuit" between the front of the piston and the front wall of the gas block. You can dig this out with a pick or a small slotted screwdriver. Just be careful, and make sure you don't scratch or damage the walls of the gas block. The Vepr 12 piston is slightly longer than the V30 piston. The parts are interchangeable, but they are a bit different. If your CSS Vepr 12 piston is not needed for compliance, replace it with the factory piston.

 

The debris in your gas block is probably preventing your bolt carrier from coming fully forward, and your bolt from going fully into battery. Once you have removed the biscuit and other debris, your bolt and bolt carrier should work normally.

 

If they do not, I suggest you seek the services of a knowledgeable gunsmith

 

Good luck!

 

Mike

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There was such a down-time since I posted I already took it to the smith. But this could still be useful in the future.

 

I'll try to do the round count for pucks in roughly the order I fired them, separated into individual range trips by spaces as well.

 

Factory Puck:

 

30 Super-X 2.75in Slugs- No issues

 

CSS Vepr Puck:

 

50 Sellier & Bellot 00 buck 2.75in- No issues 

15 Super-X 2.75in Slugs- No issues

15 Super-X 2.75in 00 Buck- No issues

 

40~ Winchester Blindside #1 Shot and Remington BB 3in- No Issues

 

25 Super-X 2.75in #6 Shot- Multiple FTEs

75 Super-X 2.75in #2 Shot- No issues

 

10~ Leftover Blindside and Remington Shells- No issues

25 Super-X 3in BB Shells- No issues

 

100 Super-X #6 Shot 2.75in- No issues

 

10~ Fiocchi T-Shot 3in Shells- No issues

 

50 Remington 2.75in Sluggers- Multiple FTEs, two failures to feed

10 Federal 2.75in Slugs- Multiple FTEs, once 4 in a row

 

The spring and cap fell off my BHO during/after the 100 #6 rounds and got the repair parts from HighPlainsDrifter and installed them right before firing the slugs. If anything the new spring is stiffer and pulls the BHO down if the gun is shaken [always stayed open on the last round but closed when i shook my gun to see if the puck would rattle]. 

 

It probably was lead fouling since the barrel was so filthy it used all the microfiber pads the cleaning kit came with plus several pieces of rag dishtowel before it was clean. When I had the FTEs with the first #6 shells I got the advice to dirty my gas system up more and to never clean it. Now its gotten too dirty, is there any way to keep it in homeostasis reliably so that it can fire light shot as well as heavy loads? Though now that I've stopped being a cad and firing birdshot at my indoor range I don't think I'll ever have anything below #2 birdshot in there and that shit kicks harder than slugs. 

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Two things I see that need correcting

 

1). The advice to never to clean your gas block. Dead wrong. Remove debris and "biscuit" as necessary. This can vary with the type of ammo used, so if function begins to degrade, check the gas block for debris and build up first.

 

2). The piston should rattle in the gas block. This is also wrong. The gas block should be free of debris, but if you clean the gas block internally down to the metal - especially the sides of the gas block, you remove the pressure seal, and gas escapes around the piston.

 

So, clearing debris and build up from the gas block is important, but cleaning the sides down to the metal isn't recommended.

 

Gas systems on the Version 30 (IZ-433) / Vepr 12 are substantially the same. The IZ-109 gas system set up is dramatically different from the Version 30/Vepr 12 gas system set up. The advice above covers both types of gas systems.

 

Finally, be wary of advice from anyone who doesn't know the difference.

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Generally, the gas tube itself doesn't affect function, but it does serve as guide for the op rods on AK shotguns, and pistons on AK rifles. I prefer to clean the gas tubes on my own guns, and when I do so, I clean them thoroughly.

 

Mike

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I definitely trust Mike's opinion and have seen this same advice given many times.   However, I've always used a scotch brite pad and cleaned it out down to the bare metal every time.
It was a habit that I started before I knew any better, but my guns have always run well after a little tuning so I never changed my routine.  I've been considering keeping one of them dirty on the sides of the gas block as an experiment as it would definitely be a lot easier to skip this step in cleaning.

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Yeah, I can imagine how hard it would be to get the block clean seeing as it took all the micro-fiber pads plus probably a half dozen cuts of old dish towel to get the barrel clean. I'll certainly brush out the gas system from now on. 

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Two things I see that need correcting

 

2). The piston should rattle in the gas block. This is also wrong. The gas block should be free of debris, but if you clean the gas block internally down to the metal - especially the sides of the gas block, you remove the pressure seal, and gas escapes around the piston.

 

So, clearing debris and build up from the gas block is important, but cleaning the sides down to the metal isn't recommended.

 

Gas systems on the Version 30 (IZ-433) / Vepr 12 are substantially the same. The IZ-109 gas system set up is dramatically different from the Version 30/Vepr 12 gas system set up. The advice above covers both types of gas systems.

 

Finally, be wary of advice from anyone who doesn't know the difference.

I'm going to have to be a dick here.

 

If the gas puck is too fouled to move freely, then you're substantially increasing the probability of cycling problems. There is no point in reprofiling the hammer and doing all the other friction reduction work if you allow the gas puck to operate in an environment where it can't move freely. When the gas puck can slide under its own weight, you know it's not adding enough friction to the action to cause cycling problems. When it can't, you don't know if it has just enough fouling to seal good, or if it is so fouled you'll need power tools to get it out of the block.

 

And you're being a bit hypocritical to say on the one hand that the advice applies to both types of gas systems, but on the other hand that not being familiar with the difference means you have questionable credibility.

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Yeah, I can imagine how hard it would be to get the block clean seeing as it took all the micro-fiber pads plus probably a half dozen cuts of old dish towel to get the barrel clean. I'll certainly brush out the gas system from now on. 

 

Microfiber (polyester) is deliberately non-abrasive. All you need to do is use a scrubber that is harder than the fouling, but softer than the base metal (steel= pretty hard, chrome = way hard). Green or softer scotch brite is fine for both. Copper chore boy pads are amazing for gun cleaning. Microfiber is for keeping plastic and paint from getting scratched. It would take an insane amount of scrubbing with something like that to clean away lead fouling or baked on gunsmoke and oil.

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12-20g bronze or copper bore brush. Put it in a drill and go to town in the gas block. Ain't gonna hurt shit and it'll be clean lickity split.

 

Edit: To say I do agree with LSA that a dirty gas block is a key detriment in cycling operation.

Edited by Mullet Man
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  • 4 weeks later...

Got my Saiga back from the gun shop a bit over a week back and its seem a bit of action since so I'll post results.

 

With the factory mag its fired around 30 Fiocchi 3in T-shot shells with only one shell getting caught by the rim [usual issue]. 22 3in Winchester Super-X 00 Buckshot with no issues, and 10 Olin military 2 3/4in 00 buck had one shell caught by the rim [again] and one that started to get cut into by the barrel/feed ramp and the bend instead of feeding. When I took that round out it had some nasty gouges in it and the business end of the shell looked slightly necked down like it where wider than the barrel originally.

 

Vepr mag ran Remington 2 3/4in slugs alright, might have had an issue or two but nothing too bad. But the reason I shot 22 Win-X 3inchers out of the factory mag is because the 10 round mag did not want to feed the first 3 at all. It ejected spent cases fine but wouldn't close the bolt completely only about 80% closed. I'm figuring that either the mag needs to be worn in a bit and/or ground down a bit more. The edges also seemed to be imprinting on the shells as the Win-X rounds I popped out of it after it kept jamming had a line on each side of them.

 

Kinda seeming like more reason to send my Saiga to Legion to get converted so if this keeps up its mom/dad can check it over to see what is wrong since of the two gunsmiths I've interacted with so far 1 left the gas tube lever up and pushed forward so it locked the tube on but obviously wasn't in the right position, and the other took 2 weeks to clean the Saiga and try to fit the mag and they couldn't/wouldn't test their work as they only have a pistol trap.

 

But it runs the T-shot well enough so at least for the time being i have 4-5 shots of heavy bird shot to stop any threats knocking at my door and the 10 rounder that might work... possibly.

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JDeko;  I noticed you said you tend to ride the bolt carrier handle when charging the Saiga.  What we try to do is keep our fingers OFF the bolt carrier handle when letting the thing slam home charging the weapon.  The reason for this is that there is a very very slight chance of primer ignition.  This would mean one could lose fingers.

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Usually at the range/when shooting I pull back and let it go [possibly because that feels cooler]. But I might have to pay attention to if I'm doing that and if that is causing these problems.

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The bolt is designed to work with the full kinetic energy of the spring. Pull the bolt  to the rear to full spring compression, and release it cleanly to release the ENTIRE 

amount of stored energy to the bolt. Riding the bolt removes energy from the bolt. That causes jams, just like under powered ammo- that causes jams due to not cycling the bolt hard enough to fully compress the spring. Again that does not store enough energy to properly work the action. Even if the bolt goes far enough to strip off a round, it may not have enough energy to load and lock it.

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That may have been the issue with the Olin round that started to bend and got cut up by the internals but the 3in 00buck were jamming out of the Vepr mag based only on the recoil. Same with the Olin and Fiocchi T-Shot shells that got stuck by the rim in the bolt.

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If rounds are sticking in extractor claw, clean the bolt with a can of carb and choke cleaner, and oil with a bit of 0W30 oil. Gunk can build up and freeze the claw.

A sluggish gas system can cause that too, the bolt MUST come back hard enough for the little ejector tab to knock the round out of the claw.

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If rounds are sticking in extractor claw, clean the bolt with a can of carb and choke cleaner, and oil with a bit of 0W30 oil. Gunk can build up and freeze the claw.

A sluggish gas system can cause that too, the bolt MUST come back hard enough for the little ejector tab to knock the round out of the claw.

 

I shall try that, I can pick up some Gumout from work. That will get stuff Hoppes can't? And I have plenty of motor oil around my house for chainsaws and stuff. 

 

It could be that now the gas system is too clean I think since now the gas puc practically falls out when I take the tube off [which I've been doing a lot recently because of my other thread]. I took it to a gunsmith since I was worried about the gas holes possibly being full of lead and that smith was suggested to me, but it was quite a shit show...

 

I think it was definitely biscuited before as Mike suggested though, because now that I have it back it recoils hard again and throws spent shells like clay pigeons. I say that as I saw a MAC video where he was shooting a suppressed SVD and saying it was under-gassed since the spent casings where basically falling out of the bolt. 

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