Magpul now making 5.45 mags...Damn

[breid1970 327]

Well, its happened.  Magpul is now producing 5.45 mags that will only cost 13 bucks.  I wonder if we will start seeing an uptick in perhaps U.S. made 5.45 rifles and maybe a domestic production of 5.45 ammo.  Presently the cost of 5.45 ammo at least where I live is pretty damn expensive. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Foghorn

[DLT 1,646]

They could make a killing if they made a 20 round mini 14 mag.

[Heartbreaker 1,085]

They could make a killing if they made a 20 round mini 14 mag.

If it works well. I would definitely get some.

[scattergun10 125]

Well, its happened.  Magpul is now producing 5.45 mags that will only cost 13 bucks.  I wonder if we will start seeing an uptick in perhaps U.S. made 5.45 rifles and maybe a domestic production of 5.45 ammo. Presently the cost of 5.45 ammo at least where I live is pretty damn expensive. 

 

It would be nice,but nothing beats 7N6.

[gunfun 3,931]

 

Well, its happened.  Magpul is now producing 5.45 mags that will only cost 13 bucks.  I wonder if we will start seeing an uptick in perhaps U.S. made 5.45 rifles and maybe a domestic production of 5.45 ammo. Presently the cost of 5.45 ammo at least where I live is pretty damn expensive. 

 

It would be nice,but nothing beats 7N6.

 

 

Lot's can and could. 7n6 was primarily designed to be cheap to manufacture by using lots of cheap steel. Do you really think no innovation or improvment has happened in the last ~40 years?

 

As with other steel core ammo, there are 3 layers of metal, each of which has tolerances. Keeping the mild steel core, the lead layer and the jacket concentric is a problem with all ammo made in this way. It inherently puts an upper limit on accuracy. 7N6 is kind of like an HPBT, and there is a 4th area of irregularity: as they form the lead sheathed steel into the jacket, then start closing the front, the lead gets swaged up into the hollow. It frequently will do so in a lopsided or ragged extrusion. Part of the advantage of plastic tipped bullets over HPBT is that they can leave the opening at the front larger so that the last operation before insertion of the plastic is to run a swaging punch into that hole and uniform the lead bit in the cavity.  Then they trim the nose opening and shove in a plastic cone. 7n6 is kind of made like that in reverse since the components are pushed in from the back of the jacket, so there is nothing directly supporting the lead as it is squished around over an open cavity. Thus there is an unpreventable irregularity there.

 

In the picture below, you see the marks "empty space", and "lead alloy (Pb)" --- That's where I am talking. Besides that the steel core can be and often is off center, rather than having a nice perfectly level surface to the lead next to the cavity, it can be diagonal or wavy. without a tool to back it, there is no way to force the lead to flow perfectly evenly as it is squeezed in. This makes for a bullet which is often unbalanced and therefore less accurate.

 

[scattergun10 125]

Very interesting and informative.Thanks for posting.  

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Don't think that pocket up front is by mistake or that the potential lack of stability doesn't also aid in the characteristic of the projectile. It's nicknamed the poison bullet for a reason. Playing by Geneva convention Hague convention rules, you either end up with fragmenting bullets, or tumbling/yawing bullets. When that pocket flattens out and the ass end wants to come over top, the bullet goes in all kinds of directions ....fucking shit up. For the price, for the reliability and for the design intent to follow rules of war, it does the job exceedingly well.

I have video of my (now sold) IZ240 keyholing just by deflection from a piece of bark sticking off an adjacent log, that I was shooting near. (skip to 0:55 mark)

 

It's really apples to oranges. Does the Hornady round perform? Absolutely. But does it perform so much better out of a somewhat accurate, non match, rack grade type rifle like the AK, that it warrants the substantial price difference for the (arguably) slightly better performance, I don't think so personally.

 

As far as Magpul mags for my AK's....No thanks.

 

Edit; Hague Convention, not Geneva Convention. D'oh

Edited January 26, 2016 by Mullet Man

[gunfun 3,931]

MM instability on impact is a different animal from instability in flight. The empty cavity tends to collapse to one side or the other and divert the bullet, it's back heavy so that it tends to want to swap ends like a badly loaded pickup on ice. In the air, you want it as stable as possible The empty cavity helps with stability in that it allows a longer pointy shape for good aerodynamics, a good ballistic coefficient. This makes it keep velocity longer and further.This also stretches out the distance before it destabilizes as it drops beneath the sound barrier. That is generally considered to be the longest distance for practical first shot hit accuracy for any cartridge.

 

However a solid long skinny bullet is not balanced as well. It's like bench pressing with your thumbs touching. Sounds hard to keep stable right? Now if all the weight was right next to your hands, not so big a deal. Same same with HPBT or 7n6 or the poly tipped rounds. As much weight as possible is in the middle and as little as possible at the ends. More stable.

 

So we've discussed terminal ballistics: how it turns sideways after it hits, and exterior ballistics: how it behaves between the muzzle and impact.

 

The lesson that all the militaries in the world learned in the late 40s was that you can't miss hard enough to kill the enemy. Thus we went to intermediate cartridges. An unstable bullet in flight is never an advantage.Even more unstable bullets in flight, as project salvo, etc. showed.  Hence the M16 rapidly moving from a deliberately unstable bullet to a stable one very shortly after deployment. 7n6 was a development. They wanted a bullet stable in flight and unstable on impact. It does a good job of doing those for cheap, and got a lot of hype for doing so. However it is kind of silly to think that no one has improved on that good tech in 40 years. Civvy ammo can be made to higher spec, since cost is out and Hague doesn't apply. If you were to make the same bullet as 7N6 but use a fully lead core, it would be harder hitting and more accurate. You would eliminate two tolerances and improve sectional density. The added mass would help it penetrate ~as much as the hardness it lost. (Energy> material hardness for penetration, including armor.) 

 

5.45 didn't lose the best ever ammo with the loss of 7n6, it lost the most popular, available, effective, cheap ammo. Best at the time for bulk buying, probably. Since at the time most people who had 5.45x39 guns did so for cost, it made a hit to domestic popularity. Demand could make it nearly as cheap as  223. If that happens, you can expect to see a lot of options on the market which far exceed anything milsurp in performance. '74s won't likely ever be the gun that you can shoot for absurdly cheap anymore, but they will stay good.

[XD45 7,124]

re: the op

 

5.45 mags and 7.62 20rd "tanker" mags.

 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

 

Well, its happened.  Magpul is now producing 5.45 mags that will only cost 13 bucks.  I wonder if we will start seeing an uptick in perhaps U.S. made 5.45 rifles and maybe a domestic production of 5.45 ammo. Presently the cost of 5.45 ammo at least where I live is pretty damn expensive. 

 

It would be nice,but nothing beats 7N6.

 

Anything non-corrosive beats it if you dislike cleaning your own guns as much as I do. When it was $129 for a tin the effort was worth it. Now, not so much.

[breid1970 327]

re: the op

 

5.45 mags and 7.62 20rd "tanker" mags.

 

I am soooo excited....truly....20 round magpul tanker mags?  Yes please.

[blessthefall 27]

just remember these calibers were designed for full auto use

Edited January 26, 2016 by blessthefall

[Mullet Man 2,114]

MM instability on impact is a different animal from instability in flight.

 

All I'm saying is the instability of the round aids in its impact characteristics. I know it's an unstable round in flight, there's some decent vids on Youtube showing how it flies (rather wobbles through). And that the accuracy one sees out of an AK74 which is pretty good for an AK and an unstable round, is that it holds it's own very well, right there, if not better than rack grade AR's. Even if it is 40+ years old.

 

It works and does what it does very well. No matter it gets nitpicked apart, it's a performer.

 

It's a design for a certain result to meet certain needs.

[Sim_Player 1,939]

I really appreciate the members that can dive into the weeds and share their knowledge.

 

Thank you!

 

I love 7N6. It's still cheaper than most ammo, and was still available, last time I checked.

 

Many cases bought and stored.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Well, looks like I'll be waiting a while if I decide I want some of these mags. With no metal reinforcement I'd rather just use Bulgy mags.

[XD45 7,124]

More US options ALWAYS a good thing.

[breid1970 327]

With advances in polymer these days I would trust my life to mapgul mags.  They have always worked for me.  I've dropped them, kicked them, pulled them from mud and snow and they always take more.  Twenty round tanker mags is just what the doctor ordered. 

[pyzik 597]

And here I didn't stop at the Magpul booth as I thought there was nothing new worth looking at.  Damn.

I would SERIOUSLY consider cancelling the Definitive Arms plan if I could get 5.56 AK mags from Magpul....

[VR762Shooter 838]

Love the idea of the tanker mags. Always preferred the feel of the 20 vs 30 when bench shooting. Depending on price (Hungarian tankers were dirt cheap a while ago and now seem non-existent) may pick some up after my move

[JDeko 792]

It'll be good to have this option if I'm in an AK mood when I decide its time to complete the trinity and get a rifle. 

[mancat 2,368]

And here I didn't stop at the Magpul booth as I thought there was nothing new worth looking at.  Damn.

 

I would SERIOUSLY consider cancelling the Definitive Arms plan if I could get 5.56 AK mags from Magpul....

 

I'm going to snag one when it comes out and see if it runs reliably with 5.56. The follower design they're using looks almost identical to the 5.56 follower in the Beryl. If nothing else they may accept Pmag followers.

[SGL 530]

 

And here I didn't stop at the Magpul booth as I thought there was nothing new worth looking at.  Damn.

 

I would SERIOUSLY consider cancelling the Definitive Arms plan if I could get 5.56 AK mags from Magpul....

 

I'm going to snag one when it comes out and see if it runs reliably with 5.56. The follower design they're using looks almost identical to the 5.56 follower in the Beryl. If nothing else they may accept Pmag followers.

 

 

Wouldn't that be sweet!

[Spacehog 2,219]

 

And here I didn't stop at the Magpul booth as I thought there was nothing new worth looking at.  Damn.

 

I would SERIOUSLY consider cancelling the Definitive Arms plan if I could get 5.56 AK mags from Magpul....

 

I'm going to snag one when it comes out and see if it runs reliably with 5.56. The follower design they're using looks almost identical to the 5.56 follower in the Beryl. If nothing else they may accept Pmag followers.

 

That was my primary hope for them as well. Thanks for being the guinea pig. I look forward to hearing your evaluation.

[pyzik 597]

 

And here I didn't stop at the Magpul booth as I thought there was nothing new worth looking at.  Damn.

 

I would SERIOUSLY consider cancelling the Definitive Arms plan if I could get 5.56 AK mags from Magpul....

 

I'm going to snag one when it comes out and see if it runs reliably with 5.56. The follower design they're using looks almost identical to the 5.56 follower in the Beryl. If nothing else they may accept Pmag followers.

 

Awesome.  I was considering doing the same.