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modified and non modified triggers with folding stocks and pgrips


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Are we talking an already converted Saiga 12, or are you asking what the advantage is of converting it and using a folding stock? If you're going to put any money into your firearm, convert it. There are many sources of information regarding the conversion process, and you can do it yourself, or I'm sure there are still places who will do the conversion for you if sent off. The way the Saiga's were imported is in a "sporterized" configuration, but the Saiga is an AK'ish based firearm. You're basically returning it to its former glory by getting it converted, and it does feel a lot better when done. As far as a folding stock, well, it folds. Personally, I currently have a folder on mine, but it might get replaced soon. It has a tendency to jam the action when firing with the stock folded. It doesn't bother me to replace it with a fixed stock, though, because I have no reason to fire it with the stock folded. It just reduces accuracy.

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You really do want to convert your gun. "Convert" tends to mean two things that overlap. First, it is a term for a conversion from a foreign made shotgun which has restrictions about what magazines you can use and what other features you can have. Getting rid of a few foreign parts and substituting US made ones makes it legally an american gun with none of those restrictions. Now you can have a foldy stock and use magazines which hold more than 5 rounds. Second, people use the term to refer to a restoration to a pistol grip layout similar to a conventional AK. This moves the trigger grip forward, uses a shorter stock, a pistol grip, etc. It improves every aspect of using the gun. The reason the terms get confused, is that the cheapest and most practical way to do the first meaning of conversion is to do the second, and use a few USA made parts in the process. Use a US made trigger group, pistol grip, and puck and you are legal for everything.

 

I describe it like when DVD came out. VHS was good, what is the big deal? DVD maybe was a little better, but not that much, right? Then after DVDs a while I watch a VHS and it just looked terrible by contrast. That's using a saiga with the monte carlo stock. It still wipes the floor with tube fed shotguns, but the trigger is rough the controls are not by your hand, the mag changes are at arms length, the balance is too far forward to swing right... It just feels crude and -- "off."

 

Then convert it into an AK shape, and the weight is between your hands and over your foot, the balance feels the same no matter what mag or how much ammo is in there, because it is in the middle of the gun, it swings correctly, the safety is within reach of your index finger, The gun is balanced while you reload, and the magazine well is in your 'work zone' the trigger is better, the sight plane is right (if you did the stock well), all mags are legal (if you chose your parts well), it looks better, the whole thing is more compact, you have a recoil pad (if you are smart.)

 

As for folders vs non folders, I have two thoughts. First) To me each gun needs to work as a tool you have with you. I worked on a boat and used guns for pest control which influences my thinking. The shotgun with a conventional stock didn't get used much, because it was big and became in the way and vulnerable. We would leave it inside where we weren't beating it up or bumping into it or snagging on it. If I saw something that needed shot at, dashing into the cabin and grabbing the long shotgun usually meant I missed the chance to shoot. Instead we used a 10/22 with a folder because it could be in the  hose box on deck right next to us. I could pick it up and open the stock in one smooth motion. Similarly, at my family's country houses when a varmint showed up in the garden or hassling the pets, there were lots of excellent guns. But the little .410 with a pistol type grip was in the kitchen cabinet right by the porch door, because it fit. Guess which gun got used most? Lesson- the gun you can have with you is better than the gun that is perfect on the range but in the way in daily life. A compact gun fits better everywhere. In your car or truck, in the shelf by your front door, on the fender of your tractor or quad.... Wherever you are, a foldy shotgun probably fits better. Second) every long gun is far more usable if the stock fits YOU. That means you look at your target and bring the gun up to your eye and find that you have a repeatable cheek weld with the stock resting in a comfortable, repeatable place on your shoulder or chest. If you find that you have to bring your head down to the gun and move around to find the sights, that stock is not right for you. Change it. A lot of folding stocks, particularly the wire type AK folders are awful for a cheek weld. Shotguns are all about smooth speed. A good fast repeatable mount while focused on the target, and a smooth swing. however you go, keep the gun light by avoiding clunky stuff on the front, and choose a folder or a conventional stock that gives YOU a good fit.

 

If I lived in california and monte carlo was the only way I could have one without ruining the other features, I would leave it that way, but swap enough other parts for 922r complaince. In all other circumstances, I would convert it, probably with a folding stock.

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I'm not a fan of the folding stock on the Saiga-12. I had one, and ended up removing it and going with a standard M4 adjustable length stock. 2 reasons:

1. The hinge of the folding mechanism is on the left side if you get a left-hand folder (pretty much mandatory if you want to be able to cycle the bolt or fire the gun with the stock folded). Having the hinge bash you in the face while shooting 3" magnums sucks. A lot.

 

2. The Saiga is a bit on the heavy side (especially with 20-round drums attached). Holding all that weight at arms' length with a long stock makes that weight even harder to hold, and 20-round drums even harder to reach around to grasp the forend or vertical foregrip.

 

With this stock tube, you can install an M4-style stock such that the front of the stock is nearly flush with the rear of the receiver. A 1" riser on the stock is just about perfect for an AR-style red dot or Eotech on a rail co-witnessed with irons, and the resulting configuration is almost as handy as a bullpup, except you can shoot it left-handed if you want to.

 

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Edited by JonWienke
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How on earth did you manage to bash yourself in the face with the hinge?

 

ps the magpul foldy stock and others fold to the right and still clear the controls. It works fine. Left suits me more, but either works.

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How on earth did you manage to bash yourself in the face with the hinge?

 

ps the magpul foldy stock and others fold to the right and still clear the controls. It works fine. Left suits me more, but either works.

 

Only if you limit yourself to factory sights. Right-side folders will not work if you you have a riser on the stock high enough to use an Eotech or similar optic with a decent cheek weld, which requires about a 1" riser. The riser and the charging handle will interfere.

 

I was using this stock setup with the stock in the fully retracted position.

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Why would you fire it with the stock fully retracted? It makes for a horrible stance with bad support.

 

Wrong on both counts, at least with the gun set up as shown. Having the mass of the gun closer to your body means you can get it on target quicker, and transition from target to target with less overshoot. With the stock extended too far, you have to lean backward a little bit to avoid tipping over forward when leaning into the gun to properly manage recoil. With a shorter stock, you can "lean in" to the gun more and still be balanced, and recoil pushes you off-target less, and you can get faster follow-up shots if necessary.

 

You just don't want to be so short that something bashes you in the face during firing. The riser I have on the stock is slightly taller and wider than the receiver cover, so it's not an issue.

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Perhaps, but when you have the pistol grip so close to you, your arm has to really bend tight to get to it which makes trigger control worse. My preferred LOP is 15", anything less is uncomfortable to shoot.

I don't find it uncomfortable, nor does it cause me any problems manipulating the trigger.

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Perhaps, but when you have the pistol grip so close to you, your arm has to really bend tight to get to it which makes trigger control worse. My preferred LOP is 15", anything less is uncomfortable to shoot.

 

Hence more vertical grips, such as the umbrella corp pistol grip, or the one I custom fabbed for mine. It makes for a more natural wrist angle holding the gun up close. I prefer it.

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Hence more vertical grips, such as the umbrella corp pistol grip, or the one I custom fabbed for mine. It makes for a more natural wrist angle holding the gun up close. I prefer it.

This. The Hogue rear grip on my gun is more vertical than some, and shooting is comfortable even with the stock fully retracted.

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