JonWienke 131 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Like most Saiga owners, I've noticed the deformation of the front of the top round in the magazine when stored in the gun with the bolt closed. I have some Remington #1 buck rounds where this has resulted in the crimp sealant failing (in some cases just from hand-cycling rounds through the gun), and the buffering material (fine white plastic powder) leaking out the front of the round and getting into the magazine and action and creating a lot of unnecessary fouling. I'm interested in others' experience with and input on brands of #1 or 00 buckshot ammo that 1. Resist deformation (minor deformation is OK as long as it doesn't cause jamming or cycling problems) 2. Don't leak buffer powder, even if round is abused 3. Have appropriate penetration for HD/SD. I'm OK with either 2.75" or 3" rounds. Intended use is HD/SD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) I've had very good results with 2 3/4" Fiocci #4 Buck (twenty seven .25 caliber nickel plated shot per shell) in the factory 5 round magazine. Sorry, Jon, that doesn't fit with the two shot sizes you asked about. It is a NASTY round for HD. Edited January 28, 2016 by YOT 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JonWienke 131 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 The reason I prefer #1 or 00 over #4 is that they penetrate better when the perp is wearing heavy clothing or is extra-large, or is only partially exposed behind a door or wall. I just got 3' of snow, so heavy clothing is a pretty likely scenario for me. YMMV. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 Might be a little simplistic but why not just use the bolt hold open. I keep mine in that condition along with a modified safety and have never had an issue. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 28, 2016 Report Share Posted January 28, 2016 IMO this is the closest thing to perfection available commercially at the moment: http://www.hornady.com/store/12-Ga-VX-4-Buckshot/ I think you had a different order, but whatever. 1) This velocity would yield a pretty consistent 13-14" of penetration in gel... IMO 21-22 pellets #4 Buck at 1350-1400 is the sweetspot ideal HD round. These are 24 at 1350, so they will kick a little harder, but no biggie. The old FBI tests were at 1325 FPS and they still put nearly twice the # of pellets into the 12-13" depth of the next closest contender. They had automatic DQ because the test rules said if any of the pellets stopped short the whole round had to be DQ'd. 2) densely packed pellets and thick shotcup support shell. No deformation. Oh and the shell is tough itself. 3) wad is perfect pattern in smoothbore. Not for use with chokes, as it behaves like an erratic spreader when constricted. Hornady's equivalent to federal flite control. Incidentally sometimes fed offers flite control #1 buck, which is also a good choice if it is loaded to 1325 FPS. 4) Hornady shells are beautiful. No leakage. 5) this is a hunting line... Their HD line blends powders to minimize flash. This has better terminals, so I would choose it. I make something similar with federal 12S3 wads, and it patterns beautifully through a choke or open. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vance665 225 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I use PDX-1 segmented slugs. I haven't tested them on a closed bolt so I don't know if they would solve your problem or not, but they might be worth looking into. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Super-X 00 buck never deformed on me being in mine on a closed bolt for close to a year. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Experiences will kinda vary. Super X 3" 15 pellet OO buck loads did SLIGHTLY bend after about 2 months loaded in the 10rd gen.2 AGP Arms box mags loaded with 8 rounds into the S12 with no round chambered. Enough that chambering was slightly harder. That is how often I now shoot the S12 with heavy serious loads. Too much recoil for fun any more. Hurts my old bones. Given the cost of the best buckshot loads, has anybody fooled around with hand loading your own? I am thinking of a greatly higher number of #1 buckshot traveling at a reduced velocity. Has anybody experimented with this? I for one shoot about 75% light WW 3 dram equivalent bird shot loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Mine were 2.75" in a factory 4 rounder 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Experiences will kinda vary. Super X 3" 15 pellet OO buck loads did SLIGHTLY bend after about 2 months loaded in the 10rd gen.2 AGP Arms box mags loaded with 8 rounds into the S12 with no round chambered. Enough that chambering was slightly harder. That is how often I now shoot the S12 with heavy serious loads. Too much recoil for fun any more. Hurts my old bones. Given the cost of the best buckshot loads, has anybody fooled around with hand loading your own? I am thinking of a greatly higher number of #1 buckshot traveling at a reduced velocity. Has anybody experimented with this? I for one shoot about 75% light WW 3 dram equivalent bird shot loads. I make buckshot loads, and plenty of other people do too. #1 buck is perfect penetration at 1325FPS, so I wouldn't want to reduce it's velocity. 12 pellets makes a nice stack, recoil is slightly less than the standard 9 pellet 00b feild load, because it's the same velocity and a little less weight. 16 pellets at 1325 is the standard #1 buck load, so it kicks a mite harder than the 9 pellet OOB. 12>9. MSRdiver actually helped me get started reloading buckshot including giving me some very nice pet loads for this, that he even had pressure tested. I think controllability and followup might be more important than a few extra pellets anyway. Why beat yourself up with a 3" mag load, when you can make it very dead with a 12 pellet load? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Whatever you use, rotate your ammo periodically! Shoot out the mag and use fresh ammo for HD. I finally got to shoot some things that were in storage/transport for the last 2 years. I had 2 SERIOUS problems. 1. MD-20 with Winchester 00buck (the green stuff with 12 pellets) was loaded in 2014 - failure to strip the first round, jammed on third. All rounds showed some signs of deformity, mostly bulges in the side from one or more of the pellets. all rounds were then unloaded and put in AGP 10 rd mags and fed reliability, except the third round from the MD, that one was mashed in the nose too badly to try. 2. Old reliable- the Star B that has been flawless for years had somehow gotten the slide stop/take down lever slightly twisted, and was binding the slide so bad that it wouldn't strip a round from a mag. While trouble shooting, I pulled the mags apart for a good cleaning and was EMBARRASSED to find one with a sticky residue like tar, and another rusty as hell inside! SO- Do not leave shotgun drums loaded for EXTENDED periods of time! (I will rotate mags a LOT more often than I have before). Clean those mags! Even the toughest old war horse throws a shoe sometimes! How in the HELL that little steel lever got bent I have no idea- but if i had done more than push an oiled patch down the bore before taking it to the range, I might have found it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JonWienke 131 Posted January 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 I decided to go mainly with Winchester Super-X 2.75" #1 16-pellet. I have some other Super-X in 2.75" #4 27 pellet, and 3" #1 24 pellet, and they have held up reasonably well to deformation and hand-cycling through the Saiga. Winchester welds the crimp shut as opposed to Remington's glue that seems kind of fragile, especially with older shells. I will pick up some of the Hornady #4 though. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Whatever you use, rotate your ammo periodically! Shoot out the mag and use fresh ammo for HD. I finally got to shoot some things that were in storage/transport for the last 2 years. I had 2 SERIOUS problems. 1. MD-20 with Winchester 00buck (the green stuff with 12 pellets) was loaded in 2014 - failure to strip the first round, jammed on third. All rounds showed some signs of deformity, mostly bulges in the side from one or more of the pellets. all rounds were then unloaded and put in AGP 10 rd mags and fed reliability, except the third round from the MD, that one was mashed in the nose too badly to try. 2. Old reliable- the Star B that has been flawless for years had somehow gotten the slide stop/take down lever slightly twisted, and was binding the slide so bad that it wouldn't strip a round from a mag. While trouble shooting, I pulled the mags apart for a good cleaning and was EMBARRASSED to find one with a sticky residue like tar, and another rusty as hell inside! SO- Do not leave shotgun drums loaded for EXTENDED periods of time! (I will rotate mags a LOT more often than I have before). Clean those mags! Even the toughest old war horse throws a shoe sometimes! How in the HELL that little steel lever got bent I have no idea- but if i had done more than push an oiled patch down the bore before taking it to the range, I might have found it. You mean Remington, green 12 pellet right? Winchester has red or black for their buckshot hulls, other than some O.D. military contract shells, but those are 9 pellet. Rem buckshot and slug hulls are pretty terrible. Soft plastic, and they just pour the shot in loosely with buffer. this makes for unsupported voids in the shell. Also their high "brass" (yellowed steel) seems to be especially easy to ding and dent up. For the same money Federal builds a much better shell. See Distal Raidus' pics here: See how incredibly sloppy Rem is with their loading? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 IMO this is the closest thing to perfection available commercially at the moment: http://www.hornady.com/store/12-Ga-VX-4-Buckshot/ I think you had a different order, but whatever. 1) This velocity would yield a pretty consistent 13-14" of penetration in gel... IMO 21-22 pellets #4 Buck at 1350-1400 is the sweetspot ideal HD round. These are 24 at 1350, so they will kick a little harder, but no biggie. The old FBI tests were at 1325 FPS and they still put nearly twice the # of pellets into the 12-13" depth of the next closest contender. They had automatic DQ because the test rules said if any of the pellets stopped short the whole round had to be DQ'd. 2) densely packed pellets and thick shotcup support shell. No deformation. Oh and the shell is tough itself. 3) wad is perfect pattern in smoothbore. Not for use with chokes, as it behaves like an erratic spreader when constricted. Hornady's equivalent to federal flite control. Incidentally sometimes fed offers flite control #1 buck, which is also a good choice if it is loaded to 1325 FPS. 4) Hornady shells are beautiful. No leakage. 5) this is a hunting line... Their HD line blends powders to minimize flash. This has better terminals, so I would choose it. I make something similar with federal 12S3 wads, and it patterns beautifully through a choke or open. +3.... https://www.midwayusa.com/product/159608/fiocchi-exacta-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-4-buckshot-27-nickel-plated-pellets-box-of-10 Same velocity, good stout hull, no buffer to leak, and nickel plated to control shot deformation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 The buffer supports the hull and the pellets, so it is a good thing so long as the shells are sealed. If I was worried, I would just drip a drop of glue on my HD shells to seal the crimp. Winchester heat welds some of theirs. The #4 pellets nest tighter so they help support the hull a lot too. With those clear hulls, you can also visually see if something is 'off' with a load, which is nice. No confusion about what you are loading. I think the S&B and rio, centurion, nobel clear hulls are a bit too soft, but the fiocchi do seem a little tougher. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 The buffer supports the hull and the pellets, so it is a good thing so long as the shells are sealed. If I was worried, I would just drip a drop of glue on my HD shells to seal the crimp. Winchester heat welds some of theirs. The #4 pellets nest tighter so they help support the hull a lot too. With those clear hulls, you can also visually see if something is 'off' with a load, which is nice. No confusion about what you are loading. I think the S&B and rio, centurion, nobel clear hulls are a bit too soft, but the fiocchi do seem a little tougher. Hot melt glue works great. I use it on my handloads sometimes to seal the crimp. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Great post and thread everybody. Thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) How are Nobelsport 12 pellet 00 Buck shells in terms of quality and recoil, anyone know? Edited January 30, 2016 by JDeko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 The shells WERE Winchester. They are good ammo, welded crimp, green hulls and blackened brass. Come in a brown paper box labeled: 5 cartridges 12 GA shotshell NO 00 buck OLIN Corporation. Head stamp - Winchester 12 GA This is my go-to ammo, it usually feeds like a dream, as the crimp is welded, and the plastic hull is a harder plastic than most. Normally goes thru the MD-20 flawlessly. This was an experiment, I knew the drum would be in shipping and storage for an EXTENDED time, so it was an excellent time to see how drums work after being loaded and stored for a long time, under HARSH conditions. Loaded it sometime early in 2014, in Maryland. Packed and shipped in a Pods to Texas. was not done gently, many things in the Pods were broken from impact, and had gotten damp. After the Pods things were stored in a metal storage room for an entire year, No protection from the summer heat or winter cold. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 GOB- That's why I asked. Thanks for the info. Those are the military stuff, but that's the first I've heard of them being made in 12 pellet flavor. Any markings to indicate velocity? Jdeko- Nobel is kinda mid quality. Cheap,but they work. Hulls are a little on the soft side, and the roll crimps can get mangled. However without velocity info, kick is kind of impossible to determine. I put them in the same tier as wolf, rio, centurion, etc. They seem to change their component list and recipes constantly, so it's useless to talk about general descriptions such as "nobel 12 pellet OOB". Instead, you have to say Nobel #OOB11365J or whatever. Kick can be worked out from shot weight and velocity. OOB weighs 1/8 oz per pellet- if it is truly OOB. Remington uses undersized pellets, as do many others. A lot of brands in this tier exaggerate their velocity too. Plug a few loads you've shot into the dram eq chart and that will give you a relative comparison of recoil. Muzzle energy = recoil. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 My bad-9 pellets. No dram eq given, only "military grade MG buck" on one end flap,"9 pellets" at the top of the' lawyer label ' on the back. I do have some Nobel Sport "law enforcement" 1390 fps 12 pellet . That ammo is FRAGILE! The plastic is SOFT and clear plastic shot cover thin and shatters when dropped or roughly handled. Too long for an MD, but feeds and shoots well in an AGP or factory mag. I would NOT RECOMMEND that stuff for any mag that will be left loaded. Use BETTER ammo for that! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 I guess I haven't noticed any deformation on my shells. But then again I have Blackcloud and OOOBuck alternating in my 5rd mag. Figured can't get in too much trouble with some hunting loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Black Cloud coyote shot is #4 buck in a flite control wad at a fairly high velocity. (they make the wad black, but it's the same). I haven't seen that for sale for a couple years, and the recoil would be stout, but that ought to be a very effective round for HD. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JDeko 792 Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I tried some Olin military buck today and the plastic on those seemed very soft. I had one not want to feed because it was bending and dug onto the barrel instead of sliding in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Black Cloud coyote shot is #4 buck in a flite control wad at a fairly high velocity. (they make the wad black, but it's the same). I haven't seen that for sale for a couple years, and the recoil would be stout, but that ought to be a very effective round for HD. I'm running blackcloud #3shot and 8 pellet 000buck. I liked the idea of those cutting edges when they were released. Edited February 3, 2016 by montec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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