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#1 Ronin38

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:48 AM

Hi All,

 

I have a Kriss Vector SDP and I have my completed Form 1 for it... Any recommendations on where/how to get it engraved?  :unsure:

 

I've checked with my local gunstores, and the one contact one of them had does not have their engraving machine set up in their new shop, after the old one burned down last year. I can't find anyone else yet...

 

What is the consensus to engraving on the polymer? Some folks say that's okay, others say a slot must be cut so it can be engraved on the metal frame underneath.

 

I've also read that it doesn't even need engraved, so long as I'm not trying to sell it. (Which I'm not.)

 

Confustications!


"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."  -Marcus Cole

#2 W8lifter

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 11:40 AM

Had my lower engraved by Gray's Laser Engraving and am happy with out it turned out. A little pricey though ($72 for engraving + return shipping). I've also heard good things about Ident. Not sure about the engraving polymer thing, though.


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#3 unforgiven

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 12:13 PM

A   .050 ball end mill works well in plastic

 

any cnc machine shop could set it up and do it in 15 minutes



#4 GunFun

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 04:09 PM

I thought the vectors has a metal flat on the left side of the receiver for that. Or is this just the 9mm version?



#5 Netpackrat

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 05:47 PM

I can't speak to the engraving on metal vs. polymer issue, but if you are the maker of an NFA firearm, you DO have to engrave your name (or trust name), city, and state abbreviation.  The Douche About Guns made a blog post recently that has a lot of people thinking they don't have to engrave their Form 1 stuff, but as usual he is confused, and mixing up the marking requirements between NFA and Title 1 firearms.  If you make an ordinary, non NFA (aka Title 1) firearm, then you don't have to engrave it until such time as you decide to sell it.  NFA firearms must be engraved with the maker's information when they are made.


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#6 JoeAK

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:57 PM

I thought the vectors has a metal flat on the left side of the receiver for that. Or is this just the 9mm version?

 

Nope, just the 9mm, my CRB just has one slot in the plastic for KRISS USA's info, and another smaller one for the serial number.

 

I'd like to SBR and suppress this thing eventually, so this is one of the things I've wondered about.

 

I would lean towards cutting a new slot for the NFA info, but I don't know how much plastic vs. metal matters for this.


2m5cl7q.png

 


#7 HB of CJ

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 01:09 AM

What am I missing here?  Our 10-22 Ruger 10" SBR just uses the receiver serial number instead.  That is what is on the tax stamp.  All State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.



#8 Netpackrat

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 06:59 AM

What am I missing here?  Our 10-22 Ruger 10" SBR just uses the receiver serial number instead.  That is what is on the tax stamp.  All State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.

 

If you Form 1 an existing firearm, you have to use the existing serial number unless it duplicates a serial number you have already used on another Form 1 (that's probably not going to happen unless you intentionally set it up that way just to be obtuse).  But, you still need to put your name (or trust name if filing as a trust), city, and state on the firearm.  It also needs to have the caliber on there somewhere, typically on the barrel is good enough.



#9 HB of CJ

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 05:20 AM

Respectfully, that is not what our local Class 3 dealer told us.  This stamp is about 5 years old now.  So far so good.  Nothing was mentioned about having to engrave my Ruger 10-22 SBR receiver.  I am now wondering why this was not discussed with me.  Are you sure?  The stamp copy is in the safe and I am too tired right now to pull it our and check.  Too late at nite.  Respectfully.



#10 Ak Monty

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 07:21 AM

Respectfully, that is not what our local Class 3 dealer told us. This stamp is about 5 years old now. So far so good. Nothing was mentioned about having to engrave my Ruger 10-22 SBR receiver. I am now wondering why this was not discussed with me. Are you sure? The stamp copy is in the safe and I am too tired right now to pull it our and check. Too late at nite. Respectfully.


It it was made at any point into an nfa weapon by anyone other than ruger it will have that personsame name on the stamp. If the weapon isn't marked the same as the stamp it isn't right. Again as was said when you file a form 1 you become the manufacturer and the weapon needs to be marked as such. As far as engraving on polymer that's what is do. Find a laser engraver to do it. It'll look much cleaner. To the OP what state are you in?

#11 Ronin38

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 08:05 AM

I'm near Dayton, Ohio.
"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."  -Marcus Cole

#12 HB of CJ

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 01:17 PM

Thank you AK Monty.  I will be in town on other business today, Saturday and I will stop by our local friendly supposingly knowledgeable Class 3 gun shop and Class 1 (Edit: Class 2)  manufacture and I will ask the owner who comes in on Saturday. Again, I was told no engraving needed as everything is provided by the serial number.  Again a Ruger 10-22 we hang multiple short barrels and a can on.  Will advise and share here. Thank you again.  All State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.

 

Edited by HB;  Class 3 and Class 2.  Not Class 1.  My mistake and my apology.


Edited by HB of CJ, 13 February 2016 - 11:21 PM.


#13 Ronin38

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 02:32 PM

How do I go about finding a laser-engraver?
That's the goal of this thread. ;)
"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."  -Marcus Cole

#14 Ak Monty

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 03:38 PM

There's a laser engraver in Norcross GA. I found them through a local "custom: AR builder. He uses them to engrave blank lowers with his name. Maybe call around and is if someone builds ARS near you and see if they will tell you who engraves their lowers.

#15 Netpackrat

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 03:55 PM

These guys did a good job on my AR lower:

 

http://identmarking.com/

 

They also refinished the area they engraved to match to factory anodizing.


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#16 HB of CJ

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:06 PM

Oh Boy!  Just got back from town and I had a good talk with our local knowledgeable Class 2 and 3 Dealer and he told me as far as he knows, and he really keeps track of this stuff, there is no requirement to engrave a receiver or barrel(s) with the caliber, name, city and state when the tax stamp lists the receiver serial number as the registered item on the SBR tax stamp.  The factory serial number is the registered requirement.

 

Can you guys provide the CURRENT ruling from the BATFE that requires engraving the caliber, name, city and state?  My dealer guy says no engraving requirement exists.  Also with the receiver number on the tax stamp SBR, one can have multiple short barrels under 16" and can change out barrels as needed.  We do this with the Ruger 10-22 SBR.  I wonder if we are communicating accurately?  I am trying to learn more.  Respectfully.  HB


Edited by HB of CJ, 13 February 2016 - 11:36 PM.


#17 Ronin38

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 10:37 PM

Forgot to ask- Is it okay to keep a copy of the form with the firearm, and the original at home?


"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."  -Marcus Cole

#18 HB of CJ

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 11:30 PM

You can make many copies.  The originals we have are in the Bank Safe Deposit Box which might not be.  Copies rest with our Attorney.  Another copy inside the gun safe.  Another copy is kept with each NFA item.  My beneficiary also has copies.  You can laminate the original and copies.  Lots of copies are good ideas along with the CURRENT BATFE relevant rulings that directly affect your NFA item.

 

Laminating is permitted and prevents the copies and original from getting dog eared or just worn out.  Relevant ruling might include how many short extra different barrels lengths one can have legally papered just to the registered SBR receiver.  Others might include which specific M2 Carbine part you have registered with your NFA M2 Carbine "Trigger Pak"  Etc.. Getting the CURRENT rulings is the key.  Respectfully.


Edited by HB of CJ, 13 February 2016 - 11:38 PM.

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#19 Netpackrat

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 06:53 AM

HB, your dealer is misinformed.

 

https://www.atf.gov/...ms-act-handbook

 

Please see Chapter 6, "Making NFA Firearms by Nonlicensees" and also reference chapter 7, "Manufacturing NFA Firearms":

 

All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters.

The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The
marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer.
Refer to
section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements.

 

7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:

 

(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

 

To recap, when you (or your trust) fill out a Form 1 to make a new NFA firearm, YOU (or your trust) are the maker of that item.  Per the current NFA handbook from ATF, the marking requirements for a maker are the same as those for a manufacturer.  So yes, Virginia, you DO have to engrave or stamp your name (or that of your trust), city, and state abbreviation on the firearm.


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#20 HB of CJ

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 03:33 PM

Netpackrat.  I believe the ATF outdated that requirement years ago?  Also understand they have outdated info on their own site.  But ... I will share a copy of this thread and handbook page with my dealer.  We will see how it goes.  Is there a difference between making and just using?  An example .... our papered Ruger 10-22 receiver is just a receiver.  It gets used lots of time as a ordinary rifle with the longer than 16" barrels.  Then it gets reconverted into a SBR with various barrel lengths and twists from 8 to 12 inches. 

 

When used as the ordinary rifle no tax stamp copy along with the receiver is necessary.  Only when using the short barrels.  We are not making anything.  Just converting.  The barrel changes are not permanent. Does this make a difference?  Again I do not think (not sure) the ATF requires engraving with this application.  But I could have it wrong also.  Thank you for you clarifications and corrections.  My dealer is going to be pissed.  HB :)

 

All Oregon, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.  Chapter 6 and 7.4.2, NFA handbook.   CURRENT EDITION.



#21 Netpackrat

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 05:48 PM

So let me get this straight...  Your position is that the NFA Handbook that is available on the ATF's website, which says below the link "Last Reviewed September 16, 2015" is NOT the current edition of the Handbook?  And you offer exactly what as the supposed current edition that you say doesn't require the maker to engrave or stamp their information on the receiver?  If you have a more current reference, please post it.

 

When you fill out Form 1, "Application to Make and Register a Firearm", you as the maker of the firearm have to comply with the marking requirements.  Whether or not you consider it merely a "conversion" (there is no ATF form to "convert" to an NFA firearm), or if the changes are not permanent, doesn't matter.  You still have to comply with the marking requirements.

 

Your dealer friend is wrong, pure and simple.  Will you ever get in trouble over your SBR not being properly marked?  I doubt it.  Nobody ever gets jacked up over not having enough US parts to satisfy the 922R requirements, either, but most of us still go to the trouble of complying with them.



#22 HB of CJ

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Posted 14 February 2016 - 07:19 PM

Thank you.  We will confront our dealer Tuesday.  He is not going to like hearing the current ruling stuff straight from the current book.  This also means he has now instant liability not providing his NFA customers accurate information.  This might be an interesting discussion.  I will let everybody know how it turns out.  I expect he will just explode.   Will advise.  Yikes! :(



#23 Netpackrat

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 06:00 AM

orcaseal.jpg


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#24 unforgiven

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 11:36 AM

At times I think the forum should have a disclaimer.

 

Warning...people on this forum may claim to be experts, and give advise .

That advise could lead to your firearms exploding in your face....or

Could lead to your imprisonment for violations of federal law.

 

Or one of a thousand other situations arising from believing erroneous information. 


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#25 HB of CJ

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 12:32 PM

Is that referring to us and maybe me or to my not so knowledgeable Class 2 and 3 dealer?



#26 unforgiven

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 12:54 PM

Is that referring to us and maybe me or to my not so knowledgeable Class 2 and 3 dealer?

To no one in particular, just a general observation across 7 years of membership


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#27 HB of CJ

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 01:22 PM

Thank you.  Lots of us on this Excellent Forum may resemble that remark.  Including me.  We will find out Tuesday, 16 Feb, 2016.  I wish I could sell tickets.  It is going to be an interesting discussion.  Will advise. :)



#28 Netpackrat

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 06:25 AM

No claims at being an NFA expert here; I'm just some guy who has a few stamps.  This is why I posted the links and quoted sections from the handbook, because they speak for themselves.


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#29 evlblkwpnz

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:40 AM

If you send it to someone to have it laser engraved, be sure they have engraved a Kriss with their laser sucessfully. All polymers do not react the same to lasers. I sent a UMP upper to a very experienced guy who does some mindblowing laser engraving and it never got past test runs inside the receiver. That same guy beautifully engraved a M&P15-22 lower for me with the same laser. I am not a laser expert, and maybe there is some other type of laser engraver that has a setting that could have been successfully used on the UMP, but I ended up having it mechanically engraved. I wanted to see what kind of turnaround this other shop had anyway and the UMP and a PAP pistol ended up coming back to me 6 days after I shipped. The UMP looked almost like it was a factory marking and the PAP looked good but not as good as the laser guy does on metal.

Email charles@nflgun.com (Chrales R. Smyder JR aka CS223 on ar15.com)

 

I see the engraving like this, it is a relatively low expense to pay and minimal effort to put forth to eliminate one potential reason to get negative attention from the ATF, a sentence in a Federal prison and hefty fines. It definitely has to be engraved with maker/manufacturer info if it is made/manufactured on a Form 1 or 2. The only case that I am aware of that an existing item would not need to have additional engraving is if it was sent back to the original manufacturer to have it "manufactured" as a SBR/SBS/etc on a Form 2 and their info is already on it. I have seen people not engrave their SBRs before, but that is not a wise decision and they are not sticking it to anyone but themselves. One of the reasons that engraving is required is that it is one of the means of identifying the item if it is lost or stolen. For example, if my SBR AR gets stolen and some genius decides he is just going to slap another upper on it and go pawn it, I want the engraving to be easy to see and create a red flag situation with the dealer (assuming the dealer actually knows anything about NFA and additional engraving). People often like putting them in odd places that are not as conspicuous, but it makes no sense in regards to why it is getting engraved in the first place. I want my engraving as close to the serial number as possible or right out on the open in an area where there is nothing else. Imagine that same SBR AR lower being engraved on the bottom by the trigger. If there are other markings to be seen on the side/sides that provide enough info to log it in to an A&D book, it is unlikely they will be looking elsewhere for additional markings and no red flag will be raised.


Edited by evlblkwpnz, 16 February 2016 - 09:56 AM.

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#30 evlblkwpnz

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:50 AM

Thank you.  We will confront our dealer Tuesday.  He is not going to like hearing the current ruling stuff straight from the current book.  This also means he has now instant liability not providing his NFA customers accurate information.  This might be an interesting discussion.  I will let everybody know how it turns out.  I expect he will just explode.   Will advise.  Yikes! sad.png

In my experience, most dealers don't know what they are talking about to one degree or another and are not willing to simply admit they may not know for sure. They think because they are on the other side of the counter that they are required to know it all or by default they know more than the guy on the street side of the counter. If they open their minds they could learn a lot from their customers. In their defense, there is a lot to know/learn, some of it changing often, and one would have to have a lot of time on their hands outside of running the business to know it all in intricate detail. This is why the ATF publishes "reference" materials. It is all there, you just have to know how to find it and try your best to decipher some of it as most of it is wordy.


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