Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Hazieview

Any news on the DOUBLE STACK MAGS or did I miss it???

Recommended Posts

Trump's got a better chance of winning and then getting the Senate to confirm Ted Nugent as the new chief of BATFE than we do of ever seeing those mags.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trump's got a better chance of winning and then getting the Senate to confirm Ted Nugent as the new chief of BATFE than we do of ever seeing those mags.

 

So you're saying there's a chance

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike is going to release the doublestacks if Trump wins.

 

so he's never releasing them then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Videos exist of them.. I'd imagine the issue holding them up is random failures to restack. Or some sort of issue getting them working as a mass produced item.

It is the nature of a double to single stack with a rim.. Patent is good for another 10-13 years so I won't be looking into it any time soon. The Patent drawings show features that don't seem to have enough ability to prevent malfunctions, and I don't think it is possible to make it happen.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike is going to release the doublestacks if Trump wins.

....if Trump wins what....the lottery?

Vapor ware I'm afraid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

man i just wish these would show up.  or wish he would say " they never coming out, screw it"

I would respect that. We have been waiting since 2011 and he had more than enough good reasons to not press forward on it for all of this time, but as I see it most of those reasons are no longer an issue.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

man i just wish these would show up. or wish he would say " they never coming out, screw it"

I would respect that. We have been waiting since 2011 and he had more than enough good reasons to not press forward on it for all of this time, but as I see it most of those reasons are no longer an issue.
When we see a boat of saigas come to our shores I'd say the reasons are no longer an issue. Edited by Ak Monty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

man i just wish these would show up. or wish he would say " they never coming out, screw it"

I would respect that. We have been waiting since 2011 and he had more than enough good reasons to not press forward on it for all of this time, but as I see it most of those reasons are no longer an issue.
When we see a boat of saigas come to our shores I'd say the reasons are no longer an issue.
Or the Chaos 12 comes out.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

man i just wish these would show up. or wish he would say " they never coming out, screw it"

I would respect that. We have been waiting since 2011 and he had more than enough good reasons to not press forward on it for all of this time, but as I see it most of those reasons are no longer an issue.
When we see a boat of saigas come to our shores I'd say the reasons are no longer an issue.
Or the Chaos 12 comes out.
I'm more of a fan of 300 dollar saiga 12s again sometime.

 

The spend all that's left on double stack mags.

Edited by Ak Monty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Business Plan.  Money.  Credit.  Banks.  Money.  Market.  So many variables.  Did I mention money?  Manufacturing.  More money.  Am I on the right track?  Are we prepared to pay $500 per 12 rd 3" double stack mag?

 

Years ago we tried to have a local very good machine shop make custom S 12 and S 7.62x51 complete bolts.  In lots of 20 the price was very high.  In lots of 100 much less.  1000 much much less.  Sobering reality.  Yikes.

 

I hope this does not sound like an excuse.  Instead it is trying to explain realities.  :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time I had money shortages was shortly before the Saiga .308 stamped mags dropped.. Had to not pay myself for a little bit.. Been doing pretty decent ever since.

But I take a very low salary with the idea of growing my business. Not everyone lives like a hermit.

 

We bought a CNC mill cash. From a company that went out of business trying to make drum mags for the 10/22.

They took out a loan and got burned when they hit a little hiccup.

 

Never use banks when you are developing a product.. They don't understand the process, go get your own money and use that.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time I had money shortages was shortly before the Saiga .308 stamped mags dropped.. Had to not pay myself for a little bit.. Been doing pretty decent ever since.

But I take a very low salary with the idea of growing my business. Not everyone lives like a hermit.

 

We bought a CNC mill cash. From a company that went out of business trying to make drum mags for the 10/22.

They took out a loan and got burned when they hit a little hiccup.

 

Never use banks when you are developing a product.. They don't understand the process, go get your own money and use that.

+1 the potential for greater future success and continuity of the business always outweighs a fatter paycheck now, IMO. Being traumatized from the lagging economy since 2007 has made me personally lean to extremes and has drastically changed my definition of "needs" over the years.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much personal wealth does one have?  How much of that is one willing to risk?  An example:  When it became apparent to some that Obama was going to defeat McCain in the election, somebody will real big brass ones went out and ordered, payed for and took delivery of an entire 50,000 pound truck load of various Winchester ammo products.  A complete selection.  Rumor was he did quite well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We bought a CNC mill cash. From a company that went out of business trying to make drum mags for the 10/22.

They took out a loan and got burned when they hit a little hiccup.

 

Never use banks when you are developing a product.. They don't understand the process, go get your own money and use that.

 

The tear drop ones? I've wondered what happened to those. I was an early adopter to the promag one and won't give them another cent. They clearly released it to market before development was finished. They were selling them in a condition that absolutely couldn't work, and knew it. It was a shame to see them hold market share with those shenanigans, and I've wanted to see anyone else sell a good 10/22 real hi cap, drum or otherwise.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also wondering what happened to the Wyoming Arms 250 rd drum for the Ruger 10-22?

 

Edited by HB: ... I may, (probably) have the company name wrong.  This product was supposed to be near ready about 15-20+ years ago?  About the same time Bill Clinton got elected.  Did the Crime Bill kill marketing?  Dunno.  Too long ago.

Edited by HB of CJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We bought a CNC mill cash. From a company that went out of business trying to make drum mags for the 10/22.

They took out a loan and got burned when they hit a little hiccup.

 

Never use banks when you are developing a product.. They don't understand the process, go get your own money and use that.

 

The tear drop ones? I've wondered what happened to those. I was an early adopter to the promag one and won't give them another cent. They clearly released it to market before development was finished. They were selling them in a condition that absolutely couldn't work, and knew it. It was a shame to see them hold market share with those shenanigans, and I've wanted to see anyone else sell a good 10/22 real hi cap, drum or otherwise.

 

Company was operating out of Michigan, but machining operations was based in toledo OH.. The Corp was based in Nevada for whatever reasons.

We are supposed to have talks about buying their designs sometime this year.. I'm not sure if they have anything we can use..

 

Capacity was supposed to be around 250 rounds. So it is possible they are related.. Ohio and Michigan are not even near Wyoming, but often times in the gun world state names are used without logic or meaning.

 

I never spoke to anyone involved with the deal, I was mostly involved getting the rigger to load the machine and getting the wire transfer made.. My brother spoke to one of the people, and my Father spoke to the other, and was trying to negotiate for the data.. Not sure if we'll ever get an answer.

 

The gun market is a little strange.. I will say that having your own money helps a lot.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would have been a lot of fun back when .22lr was $12/brick. I would have bought one for sure. I was trying to tune a 10/22 to be "walkable".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty much. Mike Davidson has been kinda hiding for a few years. It's like groundhog's day with him. Sometimes he pops up, doesn't see his shadow and there are another batch of MD20s etc available, and sometimes they are on sale and people are asking for months when they are going to get the stuff they ordered. They get them eventually, but I wouldn't be ordering directly from him for anything I needed soon. I would buy the MD20 from any dealer which has them in stock though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't mean to be a tease , but I recently emailed Black aces tactical about maybe jumping on these as they are famous for making Mossberg 500 accept Saiga mags and make their own saiga mags for their shotguns as well. I did not save the email i how wish i had, it was back in November. Eric the owner said MD arms was looking for them to manufacture them a few years ago but their business was still taking off and they did not and still do not have the capital for a venture like developing the Mags.

 

 

 

Maybe if they let NEW Saigas come into the US the market and security for the business would allow it ?

nevertheless, someone needs to make these to many owners biting at the bit.

 

 

FOUND THE EMAIL

 
Hi Tom, how is your day?  The one issue that comes in is that the double stack hasn't exactly been perfected yet to our knowledge.  MD Arms approached us some time back about taking the lead and I'm just not sure that it's worth the development money for an idea that's not guaranteed to work in the first place.  If we are provided mags that run as well as ours do on our platform in a double stack configuration, that would go a long way to change things.
 
Thanks!


Eric Lemoine. CEO
Black Aces Tactical
cleardot.gif
Edited by SAIGA12TOM
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno, but they aren't exactly famous for build quality, happy customers or reliable firearms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha ya. Solid concept sorta. Merge the mag fed and fudd gun to sell to fuds. Handled the non nfa 10" bat thing this weekend and looked at mag. It def looks OK. So I think they are capable, maybe just bad QC?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A response and update is long over due and I apologize for that.

 

A number of reasons have prevented the production of the double stacks over the years. From fears of import studies by Obama's ATF, RAA losing their import contract, internal issues and a whole list of other reasons leading up to the eventual supply cutoff by the sanctions on Russia in what was an already saturated market that was still trying to recover from the Sandyhook run.

 

The reason they haven't been released has NEVER been reliability issues. From the time I said to myself I would make one to the time I was test firing my prototype was 17 days! The prototype has NEVER had a single malfunction due to any design flaws. Many, many rounds of testing... Despite that I still made many refinements to the design and prototype for many improvements. The one and only time my prototype ever failed to feed was when a make shift spring came apart. It was Saiga-12 Promag spring and a Saiga-12 SGM spring that was taped together with scotch tape. Since the Promag has or had a reversed twist direction than all the other springs from everyone else it let them meet in the middle. After hundreds of rounds the tape finally gave and the springs bound. Of course there had to be someone present to witness the failure and if they are still an active member of this forum maybe they can tell you how it failed horribly, lol. Since I never planned to sale them with scotch tapped together springs I don't consider it a real failure either...

 

The reason they haven't been released has NEVER been a repeatability issue. The prototype was made with math and numbers and not hand carving. Math and numbers are very repeatable. Two plates of aluminum cnc machined and bolted together with external geometry focusing solely on being able to attach it fit the gun is what the prototype in the video is. That's why it looks like a block because externally that is all it is. With math and numbers repeatability is most definitely achievable in a wide range of production methods from plastic injection to stamping to machining and even casting...

 

Bottom line is when I was last heavy on the Saiga-12 double stack production in 2014 I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on mold and tooling production when I noticed that with the magazine at rest out of the gun sometimes a round in the transition from double to single stack could become loose and shift front to back in the mag. There is just a point in the transition that a round won't have enough pressure against it to keep it pinched tightly between the other rounds. This condition is actually inherent to a double to single magazine. You can hear a round in the right position of the transition moving in basically any double to single magazine out there. I had no concern of it being a reliability issue because the magazine was actually designed to allow for front to back movement as well. It was the sound of the round moving that hung me up for a couple months. At first I was trying to remove the condition all together because I get hung up on trivial imperfections. It's a blessing and a curse.... I finally decided to abandon the splitting hairs attempt to remove the possibility of movement in the transition and to just go with the super simple solution of arranging this point of transition to take place during the cycling of the gun so any noise would be hidden by the much louder noises of firing and cycling. Then with the magazine at rest in the gun or out of the gun it couldn't make the noise. Then the sanctions came... As stated above at this time most of the industry was still suffering the saturation caused by Sandyhook. The Saiga-12 was also suffering from over pricing that basically doubled in short order by the manufacture trying to exploit it's explosion in popularity. There was the big concern the limited market couldn't support the new product. Being what it is, an absolutely reliable design in both a never done before revolution and into the still claimed by many "experts" realm of impossibly it eventually probably would have made the project feasible. Then there was also the fear of other possible imminent restrictions from the 2014 administration. (Weather these orders or actions would have been legal or not the real fear was there. The banning of future machineguns in 1986 was a completely illegal law and action by our representatives as well but it still stands...). So basically a sound ultimately stopped the production. Had the sanctions came 30 days later I would have very likely been past the point of no return in commitment with molds and other tooling in process. Or had I ignored the noise and went with it as it was but that's just not me. It's sad and it sucks but it is the reality. I do apologize and hope you know that there isn't a person out there that wanted double stack Saiga-12 mags available more than I did. If something changed with the sanctions, importability and a drop in stock gun prices back around the $600 or less mark that could change though. I'm not going to produce this for the poorly accepted clones on the market either. I was hoping the sanctions would have been lifted by now but that's not looking likely for the foreseeable future...

 

To address something else regarding licensing for other firearms. It is true that I contacted Black Ace offering a licensing agreement. What isn't true is Eric saying I wanted him to lead the development and refinement of the design. Basically the only thing needed would have been an adaptation to their follower design. At the time of contact I wasn't aware they were having all the problems with their firearm design or I wouldn't have reached out to them to begin with. The last thing I would want for my design is to be blamed for the flaws of an accepting firearm or even associated with such.

 

I also just saw today the video and future production claims back in December 2014 by Kdoske. Maybe at first they thought they could get around my patent or maybe they thought the hell with my patent. My guess is they actually used my patent info to make their mag. They must not have gotten something right if they were having issues with mixed 3" and 2 3/4" rounds though. I'm not sure what happened there but can only guess what stopped them was an infringement issue. I'm guessing an attorney finally laid it down to them about the line they were getting ready to cross. Working around my patent with an accepted, feasible and functional product is not going to be an easy feat. I won't say impossible because that is just silly to claim but it is not going to be easy at all.

 

Again, I apologize for not updating sooner and apologize for the halt on mass production for the Saiga-12. You can be assured though that some point in the near future a platform will come that uses my double stack design. When it does future tactical shotguns will never be the same either.

 

Thanks, MikeD

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

Tromix - Lead Delivery Systems
Dinzag Arms
CHAOS, Inc
Mississippi Auto Arms, Inc
Cobra's Custom
Carolina Shooters Supply
R & R Targets
LONE STAR ARMS
SGM Tactical
Mach 1 Arsenal
K-VAR
C&S Metall-Werkes
American Specialty Ammo
Csspecs Magazines
Phoenix Technology
Evlutionz LLC


  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×