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Pooling...As a believer I do know where you are coming from. There is nothing wrong with questioning. God expects it. So no harm no foul. I was even impressed you got OMO's reference. As Christians, many feel we have been beat up and vilified far more than any other religion so some get very upset and defensive. FWIW that is not an attack on OMO either. I understand his frustration as well. But still that is no excuse to belittle someone who is skeptical but asking valid questions, which I believe you are. I will say this, if there is one God, Creator, Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent, then He certainly doesn't need my arguments to prove that He exists. I do happen to believe that a Creator does exist. This is the only hypothesis that so far is all inclusive of the factual data we have observed. I also believe that that Creator is the Lord God Almighty described in the Torah and later described in the Septuginuit (Greek translation) and the New Testament where Jesus Christ of Nazareth was both fully God and fully man, and died on a cross for my sin and yours and was resurrected on the 3rd day, and lives today preparing a place for all who believe and place their hope in Jesus.

 

Investigations and facts initially got me to that conclusion. (Faith grew the more I trusted God). Along with Wolverine's excellent suggestion, I would also recommend, "A Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel. If you would like to see Christianity defended on the basis of science as opposed to faith, it is an excellent read. HB I think you would love it as well.

 

Either way, you do not have to believe as I do. I have a lot of respect for many of you on this forum who are non believers. But I hope that you will seek the truth regardless if that leads you to believe aliens seeded the human race or that a therenis a God who loves you, knows you by name, and truly desires a relationship with you. If you are interested, I will send out a copy of the book above free of charge, just shoot me a PM

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We are all evolving toward eternity.  The question is where will each of us spend it?

With a name like GRUMPY, I know a thing or two about ARGUING!  BUT just pushing everyone for an arguement is NOT what we are here for! I will put up with a bunch of shit, IF the poster also shares kno

.....or the Cambrian explosion....or the issue with the fossil record...or Hackel's fraud...or Miller's experiment, simulating early Earth's atmosphere, producing cyanide.....or irreducible complexity

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Sorry I just threw pearls...shoulda known.

How arrogant of you to presume your thoughts are pearls and any whom consider it objectively are swine. Seriously that attitude is exactly what makes people turn their nose at religion...

See how wolverine conducted himself? I'm genuinely intrigued by his book suggestions and offer.

You however bring NOTHING to the table .

 

Sorry my quip got you so twisted -- they were not my thoughts but Christian doctrine.  The "pearls before swine" comment alludes to Matthew 7:6.  I think the new living translation will clarify it for you:

"Don't waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don't throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you."

The Bible is Truth.  It may run roughshod over our elevated ideals about ourselves but it remains the Truth.  I hope that you will indeed pursue Wolverine's offer.

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AH SHIT!  Juggie?  Might be time to crush this entire POST and THREADS out of existence?  Sorry everyone.

HB,

You discount that some of us believe that in 100,000 years we will be with our Creator in a place where time and space no longer exists because both are creations. Time and space both began at the time of the Big Bang. That can be factually proven because scientists can trace the universe back to a beginning. Something that begins to exist has to have a cause. What caused everything to explode into existence? Don't take the evangelism personally, but I believe I am answering your questions as I believe to be true. If I say in 100,000 years I am going to be with Jesus Christ, why does that not hold the same level of possibility as if I said, we will evolve into cyborgs to conquer the weakening effects of lack of gravity so that we can seeds the stars like Apollo and Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica?

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Gotta ask yourself why, when Jesus Christ enters the picture people automatically either become defensive or go on the attack. Christ demands that each and every one of us decide who or what is in control -- either God or fill in the blank (ourselves, money, power, whatever).  Many can not now bend their knee to the will of God.  That is their choice and the gift of free will.  No one will be forced to follow Christ but in the end ALL knees shall bow before Him.

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Gotta ask yourself why, when Jesus Christ enters the picture people automatically either become defensive or go on the attack. Christ demands that each and every one of us decide who or what is in control -- either God or fill in the blank (ourselves, money, power, whatever). Many can not now bend their knee to the will of God. That is their choice and the gift of free will. No one will be forced to follow Christ but in the end ALL knees shall bow before Him.

Well to be fair it was a topic on evolution and instead of passing by you did come and interject your opinion, and declared that all other opinions were wrong.

Since nobody comes back from the dead (right except that only one time it really really did happen after all the other fake times that it didn't really happen. ) you can't really prove that's what happens when you die. You can't really prove that's where we came from.

You've no more seen a man come from dirt than I have seem one come from a monkey.

Yet what tends to happen is instead of accepting that we cannot actually prove either... we bicker complain and ultimately attack the others intelligence.

It's often assumed that a man only doesn't accept the bible because he hasn't read it. That's not the case. I'm well aware of most scriptures.. I've read through a good many times and it doesn't appeal to what my mind requires to be accepted as absolute fact.

I always enjoy hearing new points on the topic, but I haven't heard one in a while.

I do think HB might be a little quick to jump the gun on killing this thread.

And I hope that I understood you correctly that you didn't mean to imply I our others were swine, but only used the term as a turn of phrase.. though having been aware of its full context it seemed pretty clearly implied.

Edited by poolingmyignorance
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It is reasonable that one must believe a thing based on observed evidence.

 

It is also true there is more to the universe than we give credit. How many times has the phrase "settled science" been uttered in the last decade?

First time I was aware of such a concept is reading accounts of the late 19th century when it was common among learned community that almost all that could be discovered had been from no less a source than the Royal Society.

 

Like physics the geneticists are finding their understanding does not account for what is observed, something beyond what we know must exist. Yet that is never discussed much is it.

Of course not because "settled science" is useful as all hell for pushing all manner of agendas.

 

I believe as I do based very much on observed evidence and logic.

I also know for a fact most of the critical portions of the bible are entirely misrepresented fostering both flat earthers and young earthers.

The truth is there but do not expect it to be spoon fed, I reason it is intended to difficult as a weeding out process. Just IMO

 

Ever had to prove the earth was spherical? 

Not really as easy as it would seem when people stuff cotton in their ears and refuse to learn and reason.

Incredibly easy when the opposite is true.

And that is what makes them lessened beings, the choice of ignorance.

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AH SHIT!  Juggie?  Might be time to crush this entire POST and THREADS out of existence?  Sorry everyone.

HB,

You discount that some of us believe that in 100,000 years we will be with our Creator in a place where time and space no longer exists because both are creations. Time and space both began at the time of the Big Bang. That can be factually proven because scientists can trace the universe back to a beginning. Something that begins to exist has to have a cause. What caused everything to explode into existence? Don't take the evangelism personally, but I believe I am answering your questions as I believe to be true. If I say in 100,000 years I am going to be with Jesus Christ, why does that not hold the same level of possibility as if I said, we will evolve into cyborgs to conquer the weakening effects of lack of gravity so that we can seeds the stars like Apollo and Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica?

 

Please explain to us how NOTHING went BANG!

 

...or do we just take it on FAITH? :D

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Gotta ask yourself why, when Jesus Christ enters the picture people automatically either become defensive or go on the attack. Christ demands that each and every one of us decide who or what is in control -- either God or fill in the blank (ourselves, money, power, whatever). Many can not now bend their knee to the will of God. That is their choice and the gift of free will. No one will be forced to follow Christ but in the end ALL knees shall bow before Him.

Well to be fair it was a topic on evolution and instead of passing by you did come and interject your opinion, and declared that all other opinions were wrong.

 

And I hope that I understood you correctly that you didn't mean to imply I our others were swine, but only used the term as a turn of phrase.. though having been aware of its full context it seemed pretty clearly implied.

 

If you look back you will rightly see that I entered the conversation after you brought religion into the discussion and implied that Christianity was just another in a long string of religions due to perceived similarities.  So indeed I responded to your post.  Look in the mirror if you want someone to blame...

 

Swine? No. Ignorant. Yes. Being a Christian I acknowledge myself as a sinner among sinners -- no better and probably much worse than others.  The only thing that separates me from you is that I have accepted God's gift of Salvation through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ.  I guess another reason why I named myself "odd man out" is that I choose to not be a milquetoast Christian -- one who goes along to get along.  I choose to proudly proclaim the majesty, awesome power and amazing love of God.  Look, I completely understand your cynicism.  I was an agnostic until 26 but let me tell you, when you let Christ into your heart it is an eternity changing event and happily you will never be the same again.  They say it takes Faith to believe.  I say that when you finally meet Jesus that faith becomes knowledge and fact that transcends this world.  I pray you will open your heart to Him one day soon.

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Gotta ask yourself why, when Jesus Christ enters the picture people automatically either become defensive or go on the attack. Christ demands that each and every one of us decide who or what is in control -- either God or fill in the blank (ourselves, money, power, whatever). Many can not now bend their knee to the will of God. That is their choice and the gift of free will. No one will be forced to follow Christ but in the end ALL knees shall bow before Him.

Well to be fair it was a topic on evolution and instead of passing by you did come and interject your opinion, and declared that all other opinions were wrong.

 

And I hope that I understood you correctly that you didn't mean to imply I our others were swine, but only used the term as a turn of phrase.. though having been aware of its full context it seemed pretty clearly implied.

If you look back you will rightly see that I entered the conversation after you brought religion into the discussion and implied that Christianity was just another in a long string of religions due to perceived similarities. So indeed I responded to your post. Look in the mirror if you want someone to blame...

 

Swine? No. Ignorant. Yes. Being a Christian I acknowledge myself as a sinner among sinners -- no better and probably much worse than others. The only thing that separates me from you is that I have accepted God's gift of Salvation through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. I guess another reason why I named myself "odd man out" is that I choose to not be a milquetoast Christian -- one who goes along to get along. I choose to proudly proclaim the majesty, awesome power and amazing love of God. Look, I completely understand your cynicism. I was an agnostic until 26 but let me tell you, when you let Christ into your heart it is an eternity changing event and happily you will never be the same again. They say it takes Faith to believe. I say that when you finally meet Jesus that faith becomes knowledge and fact that transcends this world. I pray you will open your heart to Him one day soon.

No, you've been on this thread for a while making smug remarks. Thanks for the well wishes.

I'm not really in the debate business unless the argument is profound. I don't find being vehemently religious, that profound or insightful. Funny how we view ignorance differently. Thanks for the well wishes.

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"No, you've been on this thread for a while making smug remarks."

 

smug
sməɡ/
adjective
 
  1. having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements.
    "he was feeling smug after his win"
    synonyms: self-satisfied, self-congratulatory, complacentsuperior, pleased with oneself, conceited
    "he was feeling smug after his win"

 

Sorry but I need to correct your flawed choice of words.  As can be readily discerned if you have read my previous, smug would be one of the last words used to describe me.  I think you mistake smug for grounded on the Rock of Truth confidence.  If I was smug I would not take time or have the need to respond to you.  I respond because I am called to by what is termed the Great Commission -- I have need to bring God's light to the darkness.  The darkness of closed minds.  That is not smugness or conceit but humbly following what my Lord calls me to do.

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"No, you've been on this thread for a while making smug remarks."

smug

sməɡ/

 

adjective

  •  

     

    having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements.

    "he was feeling smug after his win"

    synonyms: self-satisfied, self-congratulatory, complacent, superior, pleased with oneself, conceited

     

     

    "he was feeling smug after his win"

 

Sorry but I need to correct your flawed choice of words. As can be readily discerned if you have read my previous, smug would be one of the last words used to describe me. I think you mistake smug for grounded on the Rock of Truth confidence. If I was smug I would not take time or have the need to respond to you. I respond because I am called to by what is termed the Great Commission -- I have need to bring God's light to the darkness. The darkness of closed minds. That is not smugness or conceit but humbly following what my Lord calls me to do.

You come across as very smug. Though I believe your intentions are good. Your personal commitment won't sway me, and i have no desire to sway anybody from their beliefs. I'm just here hoping to hear something I haven't already heard.
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AH SHIT! Juggie? Might be time to crush this entire POST and THREADS out of existence? Sorry everyone.

 

HB,

You discount that some of us believe that in 100,000 years we will be with our Creator in a place where time and space no longer exists because both are creations. Time and space both began at the time of the Big Bang. That can be factually proven because scientists can trace the universe back to a beginning. Something that begins to exist has to have a cause. What caused everything to explode into existence? Don't take the evangelism personally, but I believe I am answering your questions as I believe to be true. If I say in 100,000 years I am going to be with Jesus Christ, why does that not hold the same level of possibility as if I said, we will evolve into cyborgs to conquer the weakening effects of lack of gravity so that we can seeds the stars like Apollo and Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica?

Please explain to us how NOTHING went BANG!

 

...or do we just take it on FAITH? :D

Bingo. It is not up to me to prove how nothing went bang and the universe sprang forth, that is the responsibility of the scientists who push the Big Bang Theory. We can trace the expanding universe back to a single point of origin where it began. Edited by Spacehog
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AH SHIT! Juggie? Might be time to crush this entire POST and THREADS out of existence? Sorry everyone.

 

HB,

You discount that some of us believe that in 100,000 years we will be with our Creator in a place where time and space no longer exists because both are creations. Time and space both began at the time of the Big Bang. That can be factually proven because scientists can trace the universe back to a beginning. Something that begins to exist has to have a cause. What caused everything to explode into existence? Don't take the evangelism personally, but I believe I am answering your questions as I believe to be true. If I say in 100,000 years I am going to be with Jesus Christ, why does that not hold the same level of possibility as if I said, we will evolve into cyborgs to conquer the weakening effects of lack of gravity so that we can seeds the stars like Apollo and Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica?

Please explain to us how NOTHING went BANG!

 

...or do we just take it on FAITH? :D

Bingo. It is not up to me to prove how nothing went bang and the universe sprang forth, that is the responsibility of the scientists who push the Big Bang Theory. We can trace the expanding universe back to a single point of origin where it began.
Doesn't that leave you with what did god come from?

Is intelligence required for something just to "be"?

And since there's always something how can we actually conceive the possibility of "nothing"?

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man im missing out on this thread again!!  like ive said earlier, this isnt really the place for the debate like the aethists/agnostics want.  could it happen? sure! but the signs of the times with everyone trying to nuke everyone else are waaaaaay more likely, which God isnt going to allow, so the end of time will come, and arnold shwerzennger will never have to travel around in time etc...

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That which begins to exist must have a cause. God is eternal. He is not bound by time or space. Both are His creation, and both have a beginning and will one day have an end. Scientists believe that the entire universe (that is all matter as we know it) began 12-14 billion years ago, and came to be in the Big Bang. It had a definable beginning. Scientists,particularly Steven Hawkins, are busily trying to find new theories to explain away this beginning, Try as they may they cannot get past this crucial point.

 

This will be my last post on this thread. Honestly I hope it may bring some of you to search and come up with your own conclusion based on the evidence out there. I am not trying to argue with or convince anyone, as biblically that is not my job. I am simply supposed to sow the seed. I am also not arrogant enough to feel the need to defend God, as He already carries me on a daily basis. I do however very much enjoy the intellectual conversation on faith versus science when it remains civil. As I mentioned earlier I have a lot of respect for some of the folks on this forum regardless of whether they are believers or not. If anyone wants to talk more about it, PM me, I would love to talk further. Hope you all have a great day today.

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That which begins to exist must have a cause. God is eternal. He is not bound by time or space. Both are His creation, and both have a beginning and will one day have an end. Scientists believe that the entire universe (that is all matter as we know it) began 12-14 billion years ago, and came to be in the Big Bang. It had a definable beginning. Scientists,particularly Steven Hawkins, are busily trying to find new theories to explain away this beginning, Try as they may they cannot get past this crucial point.

 

This will be my last post on this thread. Honestly I hope it may bring some of you to search and come up with your own conclusion based on the evidence out there. I am not trying to argue with or convince anyone, as biblically that is not my job. I am simply supposed to sow the seed. I am also not arrogant enough to feel the need to defend God, as He already carries me on a daily basis. I do however very much enjoy the intellectual conversation on faith versus science when it remains civil. As I mentioned earlier I have a lot of respect for some of the folks on this forum regardless of whether they are believers or not. If anyone wants to talk more about it, PM me, I would love to talk further. Hope you all have a great day today.

You may or may not respond, but somebody else might pick this up in your stead.

The big bang, is the point at the center of the universe. It's not the point at which it was created. We cannot create or destroy matter or energy. This is a key point that is often over looked. Once you contemplate that all matter, energy their relation, position to each other a fluid and every changing then you begin to see that the universe cannot end, because it has no beginning. It simply is. If it repeats an endless cycle of collapse and expansion none of those are beginning or ends.. only our perspective of it. Viewing time as a dimension instead of a am absolute allows you to see the bigger picture.

Time is how we measure distance between events. If gravity were greater in another place in space then time would be measured differently. Why? Because it would effect the devices that allow the measure of time. It would effect the events that we measure too! Time itself is a contained within the universe! So when you have a singularity (the cosmic egg) and nothing in it moves than time doesn't exist because we aren't there to observe the events. So by that no creator is needed. Since matter and energy only change states.

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That which begins to exist must have a cause. God is eternal. He is not bound by time or space. Both are His creation, and both have a beginning and will one day have an end. Scientists believe that the entire universe (that is all matter as we know it) began 12-14 billion years ago, and came to be in the Big Bang. It had a definable beginning. Scientists,particularly Steven Hawkins, are busily trying to find new theories to explain away this beginning, Try as they may they cannot get past this crucial point.

 

This will be my last post on this thread. Honestly I hope it may bring some of you to search and come up with your own conclusion based on the evidence out there. I am not trying to argue with or convince anyone, as biblically that is not my job. I am simply supposed to sow the seed. I am also not arrogant enough to feel the need to defend God, as He already carries me on a daily basis. I do however very much enjoy the intellectual conversation on faith versus science when it remains civil. As I mentioned earlier I have a lot of respect for some of the folks on this forum regardless of whether they are believers or not. If anyone wants to talk more about it, PM me, I would love to talk further. Hope you all have a great day today.

You may or may not respond, but somebody else might pick this up in your stead.

The big bang, is the point at the center of the universe. It's not the point at which it was created. We cannot create or destroy matter or energy. This is a key point that is often over looked. Once you contemplate that all matter, energy their relation, position to each other a fluid and every changing then you begin to see that the universe cannot end, because it has no beginning. It simply is. If it repeats an endless cycle of collapse and expansion none of those are beginning or ends.. only our perspective of it. Viewing time as a dimension instead of a am absolute allows you to see the bigger picture.

Time is how we measure distance between events. If gravity were greater in another place in space then time would be measured differently. Why? Because it would effect the devices that allow the measure of time. It would effect the events that we measure too! Time itself is a contained within the universe! So when you have a singularity (the cosmic egg) and nothing in it moves than time doesn't exist because we aren't there to observe the events. So by that no creator is needed. Since matter and energy only change states.

 

 

God is not bound by time and space as we are in our present state.  A day is as a thousand years to Him as described in His Word.  Although we (as finite humans) cannot create or destroy matter, God can.  God Almighty knows  no constraints..  He is Sovereign and above all.  The Lord has provided us an account of the creation of the heavens and the earth in Genesis.  Research the "ontological" argument for the existence of God.  The Scripture makes clear that we are held accountable because God has revealed His proof of existence in nature, the natural order of things and the universe.  Did all of this fall into place just by random chance?

 

Who was the historical Jesus?  Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?  He claimed pre-existence with God before his earthly appearance and ministry.He affirmed the Old Testament Scriptures thereby affirming the creation account. What will you do with Him in searching for objective truth?

 

 

 

Romans 1:20New International Version (NIV)

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

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That which begins to exist must have a cause. God is eternal. He is not bound by time or space. Both are His creation, and both have a beginning and will one day have an end. Scientists believe that the entire universe (that is all matter as we know it) began 12-14 billion years ago, and came to be in the Big Bang. It had a definable beginning. Scientists,particularly Steven Hawkins, are busily trying to find new theories to explain away this beginning, Try as they may they cannot get past this crucial point.

 

This will be my last post on this thread. Honestly I hope it may bring some of you to search and come up with your own conclusion based on the evidence out there. I am not trying to argue with or convince anyone, as biblically that is not my job. I am simply supposed to sow the seed. I am also not arrogant enough to feel the need to defend God, as He already carries me on a daily basis. I do however very much enjoy the intellectual conversation on faith versus science when it remains civil. As I mentioned earlier I have a lot of respect for some of the folks on this forum regardless of whether they are believers or not. If anyone wants to talk more about it, PM me, I would love to talk further. Hope you all have a great day today.

You may or may not respond, but somebody else might pick this up in your stead.

The big bang, is the point at the center of the universe. It's not the point at which it was created. We cannot create or destroy matter or energy. This is a key point that is often over looked. Once you contemplate that all matter, energy their relation, position to each other a fluid and every changing then you begin to see that the universe cannot end, because it has no beginning. It simply is. If it repeats an endless cycle of collapse and expansion none of those are beginning or ends.. only our perspective of it. Viewing time as a dimension instead of a am absolute allows you to see the bigger picture.

Time is how we measure distance between events. If gravity were greater in another place in space then time would be measured differently. Why? Because it would effect the devices that allow the measure of time. It would effect the events that we measure too! Time itself is a contained within the universe! So when you have a singularity (the cosmic egg) and nothing in it moves than time doesn't exist because we aren't there to observe the events. So by that no creator is needed. Since matter and energy only change states.

God is not bound by time and space as we are in our present state. A day is as a thousand years to Him as described in His Word. Although we (as finite humans) cannot create or destroy matter, God can. God Almighty knows no constraints.. He is Sovereign and above all. The Lord has provided us an account of the creation of the heavens and the earth in Genesis. Research the "ontological" argument for the existence of God. The Scripture makes clear that we are held accountable because God has revealed His proof of existence in nature, the natural order of things and the universe. Did all of this fall into place just by random chance?

 

Who was the historical Jesus? Lord, Liar, or Lunatic? He claimed pre-existence with God before his earthly appearance and ministry.He affirmed the Old Testament Scriptures thereby affirming the creation account. What will you do with Him in searching for objective truth?

On order to really deem it random chance we have to show a universe in which life cannot exist. Since we have no other universe to compare we are stuck with speculating. It could be just as easily said that there is no other possible outcome other than for life to exist.

If we compare planet to planet were still not thinking of the universe in totality. Consider still however how many countless world again were back to a higher probability..

 

I'll look into the book you suggested as I don't really want this to dilute to a dissection of Scripture... (which I'm pretty knowledgeable on).. so unless somebody brings something new that I haven't considered I can't real place faith in Christianity..plus I have some dilemma with the context of the trinity, Isaiah and genesis.

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Here's something to ponder: Why hummingbirds? Simple question but hard to impossible to answer (minus God that is).  What did a hummingbird evolve from? If hummingbird flight is deemed to be superior to regular flight, why has evolution kept regular bird flight and if hummingbird flight is not superior, why has it not been discarded?  What is the purpose of a hummingbird in the scheme of things that makes it necessary?  Why are hummingbirds so colorful and able to flash their iridescence at will?  

 

When I look at a hummingbird, it speaks to me of God.

 

Here's another; why can bumblebees fly when "science" says it is an impossibility?  That just proves to me that the arrogance of Man knows no bounds...

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Here's something to ponder: Why hummingbirds? Simple question but hard to impossible to answer (minus God that is).  What did a hummingbird evolve from? If hummingbird flight is deemed to be superior to regular flight, why has evolution kept regular bird flight and if hummingbird flight is not superior, why has it not been discarded?  What is the purpose of a hummingbird in the scheme of things that makes it necessary?  Why are hummingbirds so colorful and able to flash their iridescence at will?  

 

When I look at a hummingbird, it speaks to me of God.

 

Here's another; why can bumblebees fly when "science" says it is an impossibility?  That just proves to me that the arrogance of Man knows no bounds...

So these are both kinda old notions but very persistent. I said I wanted to hear new ideas.. but these are so proliferate that I can't help but take a moment to address them. They are the scientific equivalent of "stopping power". Everybody has heard it, years of data and study disprove it, yet the  myth remains. 

 You're confusing evolution with intelligent design. Evolution doesn't care about the most efficient, or superior. It just has to be superior to the predators and conditions. So if a humming bird can adequately feed itself and avoid predators there is nothing working against it's developed flight method. A pigeon has a very basic method of flight compared to a humming bird yet out numbers the humming birds 10,000 to one? Is it really because the humming bird is superior? Or is the humming bird a niche feeder with a delicate balance of energy to size expenditure? Remember nature favors that which is the most durable, not what we humans perceive as the most eloquent. Durability is adaptability. Look at an ant and and wasp... both predatory insects very similar in basic physiology. We as humans observing might feel the wasp is superior because of it's maneuverability from flight.. yet the ant is the most populous invertebrate on the earth... so which is really "superior" ? Neither. Nature doesn't have opinions, we do. Nature just eats what doesn't fly fast enough, fight hard enough, or hide well enough. 

 The "iridescence" is refraction that occurs from the structure of the birds feather. This is seen in dozens and dozens of other species, most of which are invertebrates. Scorpions exhibit it in the presence of ultraviolet light, fig beetles, jun bugs too! Really no rare trick in the scheme of biology. 

 

The myth of bumble bee flight was simply a lack of calculations and considerations by the engineer who originated the idea. The figures he considered were for that of a rigid wing in capable of oscillation in the fashion that birds and even insects flap. It was literally a surface area to mass calculation that took only conventional mechanical methods of lift into calculation. Essentially all the engineer "proved" was what we already know: we can't build a robot bumble bee that flie like a bumble bee. Now this misconception has been around since the 1900's. Until recently we have been unable to duplicate quadruped locomotion, once thought too complex for human mechanism as well, but advancements in camera and computers has allowed us to capture the complexity of bee and bird flight, and learned how dynamic stall plays into their flight which is created as we introduce the flexible wings of insects into the equations. 

 The enhanced aerodynamic performance of insects results from an interaction of three distinct yet interactive mechanisms: delayed stall, rotational circulation, and wake capture. Delayed stall functions during the translational portions of the stroke, when the wings sweep through the air with a large angle of attack. In contrast, rotational circulation and wake capture generate aerodynamic forces during stroke reversals, when the wings rapidly rotate and change direction. In addition to contributing to the lift required to keep an insect aloft, these two rotational mechanisms provide a potent means by which the animal can modulate the direction and magnitude of flight forces during steering maneuvers. A comprehensive theory incorporating both translational and rotational mechanisms may explain the diverse patterns of wing motion displayed by different species of insects. 

 Now I have to acknowledge that none of this "disproves" possibility of a god, it simply doesn't confirm it as presented. Which is my point at large: Science is the work of men, and is limited by technology, prejudice, and funding, yet when scientific method is applied the results are very conclusive. Whenever science reaches it's technological limitations the theist pop in and scream " See you don't know!! That's proof"! but that is not "proof" it's a negative. It's a "God of the Gaps".. that which hasn't been explained is proof.. yet in most cases evidence is discovered that reveals a logical, measurable and repeatable conclusion. Which is why instead I deferred my venue of argument to the cosmos: due to it's size we cannot prove our mathematical calculations with observable empirical evidence.

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Iggy

 

Thanks for writing out your researched response, you really took your time and effort to attempt to apply science towards my questions and yet the answers are not to be found.  But what the hey, you missed the whole point and proved my statement about the arrogance of Man.

 

There is a famous picture (of which I am sure you are familiar with) of Christ standing on the outside of a door and knocking.  The door apparently is locked by the occupant inside.  All one need do is to unlock the door of one's heart for Christ to enter.  People have different locks; ego, pride, shame, placing things in God's place, the list is endless but it all equates to a person not wanting to give up power.  Not willing to bow before Almighty God and accept the gift of His Son's sacrifice. 

 

When I said; "When I look at a hummingbird, it speaks to me of God."  I was not trying to use the hummingbird to prove the existence of God but to show that if one has the sight to see that God's beauty and blessings surround us always.

 

​BTW I must thank you for giving me this chance to proselytize not only to you but others as well.  One never knows where or when the Holy Spirit will decide to act. 

 

Finally

If I may, have you been at a person's side at the moment of death and seen them expire?

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Iggy

 

Thanks for writing out your researched response, you really took your time and effort to attempt to apply science towards my questions and yet the answers are not to be found. But what the hey, you missed the whole point and proved my statement about the arrogance of Man.

 

There is a famous picture (of which I am sure you are familiar with) of Christ standing on the outside of a door and knocking. The door apparently is locked by the occupant inside. All one need do is to unlock the door of one's heart for Christ to enter. People have different locks; ego, pride, shame, placing things in God's place, the list is endless but it all equates to a person not wanting to give up power. Not willing to bow before Almighty God and accept the gift of His Son's sacrifice.

 

When I said; "When I look at a hummingbird, it speaks to me of God." I was not trying to use the hummingbird to prove the existence of God but to show that if one has the sight to see that God's beauty and blessings surround us always.

 

​BTW I must thank you for giving me this chance to proselytize not only to you but others as well. One never knows where or when the Holy Spirit will decide to act.

 

Finally

If I may, have you been at a person's side at the moment of death and seen them expire?

No. I missed my families passing each of them. Not something I'm going in detail on.

 

I do enjoy the thoughtful conversation, thanks for that. I have a strange philosophy where the questions are more revealing than the answers they inspire.

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I have had the privilege of being at both my mom and dad's passing.  While I have seen combat deaths, being quiet besides someone who dies is an amazing experience.  Something unexplainable happens at the moment of death.  One can sense that something leaves the body and what is left is no longer the person you knew but only the container that once housed them.  It is more than mere life that animates us, of that I am sure.

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HB,

 

On what basis do you want to dump this thread?  The only controversy is the Christian vs.  non-Christian perspective on the origin and/or evolution of man.  I don't see any antagonistic trolling or other problems with it.  I note you continue to read it while asking Juggs to nuke it.  What is the problem?

 

Wolverine

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The Theory of Evolution and Religion do not mix.  Evolution with religious concepts does not work.  The future evolution of mankind is a non religious subject.  Religion does not enter into it.  Thus any religious remarks or dogma including Bible Verses pulls down the question at hand.  Is that clear enough?  I want the thread killed because of the religious input.  Not required.  Not needed.  Not wanted. The subject is the future evolution of mankind.  Period.   Clear enough?  Respectfully. 

 

Of course I read it.  Is that germane to the point at hand?  What would you expect me to do?  Ignore it?  I helped create the mud.  I am responsible for it. In effect for those with religious points of view I sowed the wind.  Now I am reaping the whirlwind.  The discussion is getting out of hand.  Kill it please.  I am requesting this because, frankly, the religious input is beginning to piss me off.  One more time.  The Future Evolution Of Mankind.  Future EVOLUTION.  Non religious.  Respectfully.  HB.

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The theory of Evolution and Religion do not mix. Evolution with religious concepts does not work. The future evolution of mankind is a non religious subject. Religion does not enter into it. Thus any religious remarks or dogma including Bible Verses pulls down the question at hand. Is that clear enough? I want the thread killed because of the religious input. Not required. Not needed. Not wanted. Clear enough? Respectfully. HB

You could just not respond to their worries and illicit a conversation with the rest of us.

I for one enjoy all the view points when everybody is respectful.

So do you think there will be a next step? I honestly don't see how one could come while our current thought processes exist. We're pretty damn good at killing competition..

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