Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Legal configuration?


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 ChrisR16

ChrisR16

    Newbie

  • Contributor
  • 5 posts

Posted 29 September 2016 - 05:39 AM

Hey guys, I'm just tossing some ideas around and have a question. I'm doing a s12 build from a virgin receiver(read:never been a shotgun with buttstock). Could I build this in the same configuration as black aces tactical builds their DT line of 12gauge firearms? For those unfamiliar, the DT is a mag fed pump action 12g "shotgun" with 8.5" barrel, folding "stock" with arm brace. ATF calls these gun legal firearms requiring no tax stamp due to having and OAL of 27"(read: not an AOW), being from a virgin receiver never having a buttstock(read: not a shotgun. Also not a SBS).

Thoughts?

#2 Mullet Man

Mullet Man

    Top Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,845 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of the F.O.I.D.

Posted 29 September 2016 - 12:17 PM

My thoughts....
Where'd ya get the virgin receiver?

Are you a resident of Illinois? Join www.Illinoiscarry.com

 

Items for sale...http://forum.saiga-1...-vepr12-and-ak/


#3 GunFun

GunFun

    Apparently, guy who has made way too many posts.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,330 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington

Posted 29 September 2016 - 03:19 PM

Keep in mind with the S12, the "receiver" is what we would normally call the front trunion, and the sheet metal folded thing is maybe nothing. Look where they put the serials and proof marks.



#4 Mullet Man

Mullet Man

    Top Member

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,845 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land of the F.O.I.D.

Posted 29 September 2016 - 09:09 PM

Keep in mind with the S12, the "receiver" is what we would normally call the front trunion, and the sheet metal folded thing is maybe nothing. Look where they put the serials and proof marks.


So the question still stands, Right? ....

I know CGW did some AOW s12's a few years back. I don't think he ever disclosed how he came about the virgin parts.
Curious how the OP got his.

Are you a resident of Illinois? Join www.Illinoiscarry.com

 

Items for sale...http://forum.saiga-1...-vepr12-and-ak/


#5 GunFun

GunFun

    Apparently, guy who has made way too many posts.

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,330 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington

Posted 29 September 2016 - 09:40 PM

R&R did some too, as did that goofy company with the Octo rail .



#6 ChrisR16

ChrisR16

    Newbie

  • Contributor
  • 5 posts

Posted 29 September 2016 - 10:23 PM

I'm using a prebent ak 1.5mm flat. I've acquired a template and have all measurements from an existing receiver. There are some minor differences.. If the prebent ak flat can't be made to work then I'll bend my own flat to accommodate required changes. I have a complete parts kit plus an almost complete second parts kit, both of course minus receiver. I have no doubt that I can make a receiver. Just wondering what direction I want to head with and legalities. I have wondered about the trunnion vs receiver thing. Haven't found a solid definite answer..

#7 Netpackrat

Netpackrat

    Raw Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,255 posts
  • Location:Anchorage, AK

Posted 29 September 2016 - 11:59 PM

As I understand it, on an imported AK where the SN is on the trunnion, then the trunnion is legally part of the receiver, therefore removing the trunnion from an otherwise intact receiver amounts to removing the serial number, which is streng verboten.  In order to do that you'd have to first demil the receiver, which legally destroys the firearm; there is a specific process that must be followed involving torch cutting the center portion of the receiver, which is spelled out in an ATF publication.  Then you could legally remove the trunnion from what's left.  If you didn't remove it and you don't have the stamped part of the receiver in your possession, not really your problem.

 

If you rebuild the gun on a new homebuilt receiver, you are not required to put a serial number on it unless you later decide to sell it, but it may be a good idea to put one on the stamped portion anyway prior to installing the trunnion, just to avoid it ever becoming an issue in case you decide to cut it up again and sell the parts (which is not uncommon among "80%" builders who get tired of their toys.  Less perceived liability that way).

 

Personally I would not touch what you are wanting to do with a 20 foot pole...  It should be perfectly legal, but you might find yourself in court having to prove it.  You'll probably win, but defending yourself from that can easily bankrupt you.  Not to mention that ATFU has a habit of not leaving people alone who have beaten them in court.  Very often they will keep coming until they either get something to stick, or they run you out of money to pay your lawyers, and get you to take a plea deal.  Far better to buy the Black Aces "firearm" that is documentable and has some legal backing in the form of the ATF allowing them to build and sell them in the first place.  Or, just sack up and go the NFA route.  Going to the trouble of doing what you are doing doesn't make a lot of sense to me just to avoid spending $200 and doing some paperwork.

 

Standard disclaimers re: IANAL apply.


Edited by Netpackrat, 30 September 2016 - 12:03 AM.


#8 csspecs

csspecs

    Top Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,597 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 30 September 2016 - 07:53 PM

I could be wrong on the following. So please do your own research.

The torch cut thing is for NFA firearms. My understanding is that for non-NFA firearms a single saw cut is good enough.. The demill process is stated in the 1968 GCA if I recall correctly (or it was made up later).
Plenty of gun "buy backs" use the single cut method, as the firearms are generally not illegal to reassemble from parts.. So there is no need to go crazy with a torch when a saw meets the need.

The Trunnion is not the receiver, but it is part of the receiver. Once the receiver stops being a receiver the trunnion is just a trunnion.
The problem is if you remove the trunnion from the receiver without destroying the receiver.. Then you have removed or obliterated the serial number of a firearm, which is illegal.

My opinion is that unless there is a state law preventing it, I'd highly suggest doing a SBS. The registration and tax stamp is much less annoying.

#9 ChrisR16

ChrisR16

    Newbie

  • Contributor
  • 5 posts

Posted 30 September 2016 - 10:29 PM

The trunnion and parts came from properly destroyed receivers prior to my purchase. SBS was my initial plan but I haven't found anything definitive on SBSing a virgin homemade receiver. Thus the wondering of working around making it an NFA item

#10 Netpackrat

Netpackrat

    Raw Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,255 posts
  • Location:Anchorage, AK

Posted 01 October 2016 - 12:32 AM

People do it all the time...  Form 1 includes instructions that are fairly self explanatory, but here's a more detailed explanation that appears to be up to date with the recent changes:

 

http://johnpierceesq...the-new-form-1/

 

Also, worst they can do if they don't like how you filled it out, is reject it and make you start over, but it's my understanding that they will often send them back for corrections so you won't necessarily have to go to the end of the line.  Just don't start building until after you have the approved form in hand.


Edited by Netpackrat, 01 October 2016 - 12:34 AM.

  • ChrisR16 likes this

#11 ChrisR16

ChrisR16

    Newbie

  • Contributor
  • 5 posts

Posted 01 October 2016 - 08:17 AM

Thanks for that netpackrat!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users