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Radically short Vepr 12 SBS

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As far as I know, this is the shortest Vepr 12 with video of it actually running.

 

This was the second test fire of this weapon. The first time it ran so well that I decided I needed to get some footage of it. I figured it would be one of those things that I would pick at in spare time until it ran acceptably, but I am pleased to admit that I was wrong about that. That weird back and forth wobble during the first mag is a result of me being so used to the AK100 stock and the Molot folder throwing me off a bit. The angle of the comb and the resulting placement of the butt while firing does not feel like home to me. Enjoy!

 

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I appreciate the kind words. I did that a while back, but I thought some people would still find it interesting. Now that I am a business member I will likely start trickling out the things I previously had to keep under wraps. I hope to be getting some footage of a XTR-12 SBS soon, but not sure when I'll have time to finish it.

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Looking good! So to the end of the shell from front of barrel you only have like 5" of open air, that's nuts! Hahah good job!

 

Lookin fwd to the xtr. I'm getting one hopefully within 3 weeks...

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I wish I could put in an order. Unfortunately it looks like both WA and my life have been going the wrong direction for that the last year or so.

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Looking good! So to the end of the shell from front of barrel you only have like 5" of open air, that's nuts! Hahah good job!

 

Lookin fwd to the xtr. I'm getting one hopefully within 3 weeks...

I've been so busy running the company that I haven't had time to fiddle with the XTR, but I am pretty sure I have all of the remaining work figured out. I have something else fairly interesting finishing soon and will be able to devote some time to the XTR after that.

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Busy running the company sounds like you've had plenty of business, so that's a good problem to have. I'm glad you are keeping busy.

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Very cool .I see that you used a Muzzle booster for the low brass federal rounds.

Yes, I have to tune these backwards (for strong loads) because of the lack of an adjustable gas block. All factory springs were retained. Later I found that a regular Russian choke worked better than the booster, shorter and lighter too. Saiga 12 is still king of radically short SBS. However, a well designed adjustable gas block for the V12 may change that opinion.

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Is one in the works? I'd really like a tuneable dual poppet system.

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It's not bad but can it run a 3in magnum such as 00 15 pellet? I'm guessing it'll have excessive recoil from the bolt slamming into the rear trunnion and self destruct. It may have some trigger slap. You made the gas ports large enough to run low brass so that's pretty much guaranteed.

 

The problem with barrels that short is the pressure is too high and blows the fingers off the back of the flight control wads. It sort of just goes wherever. The standard buckshot spreads so much it has no range. The barrel has to be 11.5-12in to use those versatite/flight control wads which will give it 100yard range.

 

I'm personally only using hornady 3in "heavy magnum Cyote" 00b 12 pellet with the versatite wad. Federal makes a similar 3in flight control load.

Edited by mike123456

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Read post #12

 

Fed LE Premium (has FC wad) 00 Buck yields a fist-sized (about 4") pattern at 7 yards in a 6.5" Saiga 12 and I would not expect it would be much different in a Vepr 12 with a 7" barrel. It goes exactly where I aim in my experience. Rem Express 00 Buck, however, yields a huge pattern about 24-26" at that same distance.

 

Just curious, where did you get the info about the FC wads in radically short barrels?

 

If someone is using a SBS for 100 yard shots they have the wrong weapon in their hand and might be better served with a rifle.

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I've owned and used everything from 8in up to 28in. It's just experience with the barrel lengths. I've had 8 11.5 12 14 18 19 and up.

 

Same thing with the saigas. ive seen conversions with trigger slap, bolt slamming into the rear trunnion, excessive recoil. Then I've seen ones set up to run high brass only that shoot with little to no recoil.

 

I know what the pressure will do, chamber pressure being the highest and dropping with barrel length. What I've said is true.

 

My shotgun is a second gun because I need a door breacher but I expect some range with it. It still has to be useful and get the pellets on target. if it's going to spray such a wide pattern it'll miss I can't say that's useful.

Edited by mike123456

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Have you read post #12? Read it. Some sort of barrel extension MUST be used to run weak loads. Sure, I could make it run weak loads with no barrel extension, but that would be colossally stupid as it would drastically limit what loads the weapon can safely run. It is tuned to run 3-3/4 dram loads or stronger with no barrel extension and at least 1-1/4" barrel extension MUST be used for anything weaker than that. There is no trigger slap. I can tell you with certainty that if you fired a custom AK shotgun build that had trigger slap, the builder did not have an adequate understanding of what they were doing and likely copied what they did from someone else and missed the finer details. I have done rework from just about everyone except LSA and Tromix, and believe me, I have seen some colossally stupid ideas and piss poor quality work from these people. I have no idea how any of them survived for so long. Understand me, I am not them and I do things much differently than everyone else. I am not a production builder and I do all of the work on every single gun myself 100%. I also video document the testing of every build that gets reliability work, no matter what. There is nothing production, rushed, half assed, or lazy about the way I do these short builds. The stupidity, lack of skill, complacency, and laziness of others is exactly why I started evlutionz.

 

To elaborate on why I built this gun at 7", I did it because I had a barrel that was damaged at 8", I can do it, and no one else has done it. There wasn't much more to it than that and it wasn't meant to be used for anything more than what a short shotgun is designed to do.

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It's not bad but can it run a 3in magnum such as 00 15 pellet? I'm guessing it'll have excessive recoil from the bolt slamming into the rear trunnion and self destruct. It may have some trigger slap. You made the gas ports large enough to run low brass so that's pretty much guaranteed. THE GAS PORTS ARE FACTORY SIZED AND IT WILL NOT RUN WEAK LOADS WITHOUT A BARREL EXTENSION.

 

The problem with barrels that short is the pressure is too high and blows the fingers off the back of the flight control wads. It sort of just goes wherever. The standard buckshot spreads so much it has no range. The barrel has to be 11.5-12in to use those versatite/flight control wads which will give it 100yard range. WHERE DID YOU GET THIS INFO? MY EXPERIENCE DOES NOT REFLECT THAT.

 

I'm personally only using hornady 3in "heavy magnum Cyote" 00b 12 pellet with the versatite wad. Federal makes a similar 3in flight control load.

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Shoot one and find the wad. Take a picture of the back of it.

I'll go shoot my 12in and the back of the wad won't be blown off.

 

I see now you shortened the gas system, the ports are farther back. Cutting it to 12 it will barely run Winchester 9 pellet which is the lowest power high brass. Hornady 8 pellet runs when win 9 won't.

 

Factory port size but further back has higher gas port pressure. It still only runs one or the other. If you drill it large enough to run low brass like I said it won't run 3in

 

I've seen people cutting down the action spring as well which I won't do.

Edited by mike123456

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Surely if you had owned all those SBSs you would have noticed that unless you are chopping off a choked portion of the barrel with a fixed choke, shortening the barrel doesn't affect the pattern. It will reduce velocity, but the pattern is determined by the shape of the barrel at the crown.  An exit on a cylinder produces the same vector at 2" as it would at 52"

 

This is why shooting clays with a 6" super shorty is exacty the same pattern as using the same shell in a 18.5" S12. And yes, I have done that.

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Not exactly the pressure has the wad blowing the shot apart when exiting shorter barrels. That's why standard buck spreads more out of the short barrel. The flight control wads function differently

Like I said the pressure is still too high below 12in for that wad. The drag stabilization is gone because the whole back of the wad blows off.

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I noticed even at shorter distances of less than 25 that this wasn't flying straight all the time.

The wad on the loads I was firing falls behind the load in short order. You are seeing the wad, not the shot.

 

I take my short barrels out on the 100 yard rifle range.

Think about your statement.

 

Not exactly the pressure has the wad blowing the shot apart when exiting shorter barrels. That's why standard buck spreads more out of the short barrel. The flight control wads function differently

Like I said the pressure is still too high below 12in for that wad. The drag stabilization is gone because the whole back of the wad blows off.

A 6.5" Saiga 12 barrel yields a fist sized spread at 7 yards with FC hull. The FC wad/cup is still working correctly, even at 6.5". This was confirmed by a SWAT Team Captain who has fired God knows how many rounds of the same LE Premium ammo he gave me from 14" to 18.5" barreled shotguns.

 

Shoot one and find the wad. Take a picture of the back of it.

I'll go shoot my 12in and the back of the wad won't be blown off.

 

I see now you shortened the gas system, the ports are farther back. Cutting it to 12 it will barely run Winchester 9 pellet which is the lowest power high brass. Hornady 8 pellet runs when win 9 won't.

 

Factory port size but further back has higher gas port pressure. It still only runs one or the other. If you drill it large enough to run low brass like I said it won't run 3in

 

I've seen people cutting down the action spring as well which I won't do.

 

You are just now noticing that it has a 7" barrel and there is still a gas block attached? Really? 8" of barrel won't even allow the gas block to be attached and functional, but you portray yourself as being knowledgeable about these platforms configured as SBS? For future reference, I don't build any Saiga 12 or Vepr 12 with a barrel shorter than 12" and no gas system relocation because the performance will not meet my standards.

 

Are you reading my posts at all or simply choosing to ignore the content? I have stated multiple times that it only runs strong loads with no barrel extension. Due to the lack of an adjustable gas block, any Vepr 12 I do shorter than 14" is tuned for a narrow range of strong loads and a barrel extension is used for weaker loads unless it is an extremely rare case of the customer having different goals for the build and understanding that damage may occur if they do not run appropriate loads for what has been done. The lack of an adjustable gas block is the main reason the Saiga 12 smashes the Vepr 12 when it comes to being a load versatile SBS.

 

I do not drill large ports, cut springs, or swap springs, ever. I work for my results, every time, every build. Stop insinuating.

 

The next time I have to repeat any of this will accompany contact from a moderator. I hate to go there, but you are asking for it. I am getting tired of you speculating and insinuating about what I might do to these weapons for no legitimate reason and I don't have time for it. News bulletin: My reputation was earned by doing things differently than the hacks, understand that. I have been more than patient with you. If you chose to not read or comprehend this, I suppose you will find out the hard way.

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I'm not talking about just the wad because the wad holds the shot outside the barrel. The wad doesn't fly straight the shot doesn't either. It has less drag wont fall away as quickly or fly straight.

Your work may be quality according to you but there's a reason the factory gun has a 12in barrel

100 yards isn't that far to have to shoot out in the open. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the gun to accomplish that.

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Fire any standard buckshot with cardboard wads behind it Winchester, Remington express, even federal without a flight control wad and you'll see. It will spray such a large diameter pattern it won't hit anything

I see you quit arguing that it doesn't blow the back of the wad off.

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In fact I posted pictures of all this a long time ago. I got a 40in pattern with 8in at 12 feet with 12 pellet Remington. It'll be the same with 15 pellet 3in. I actually use it and those are the loads I would normally use. 2 & 3/4, 3in I even cracked the weld on a folding stock from tromix. The adapter was welded to the receiver.

Edited by mike123456

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