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Just purchased a Saiga 12. Question about serial number and markings.


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It can work, it will just be more difficult to control than one that is made for setting rivets.   Edit to add; my AK riveting tools:     Usually for the rear trunnion rivets I use one of the r

Convert it. Anything else is teh ghey

Rivets can be set by hand with a buck and a ball peen hammer, followed by a homemade set to 'pretty it up'. I made the cavity for the set with a dremmel.

703 CamaroSS, on 06 Oct 2016 - 5:33 PM, said:

https://www.legionusa.com/ak-100-folding-buttstock-mechanism-rear-block.html

 

Nevermind I found this izhmash. Do they make any cheaper ones? 172 seems a bit expensive.

 

That's a rivet in rear trunnion, designed for a factory folder. It requires pretty extensive work to be installed (receiver mods). But... it is the crème de la crème.

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I definitely want to rivet or weld all the parts. I don't like the look of bolts all over the place. When you say receiver mods, you mean like just cutting sections out? I don't mind doing some cutting. Only thing I really can't do is weld. Im assuming a Dremel would work just fine for cutting out sections.

 

Trying to find all these parts is complicated. It's like every website has one part I need and then a different website has another and so on.

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http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164375

 

That thread will give you an idea, altho not exact because of receiver differences and folding trunnion differences. The Yugo he used in that thread, has a slightly different receiver than a Russian Saiga.

 

The angles of the trunnion you are looking at are slightly different tho. You are looking at a 5.5mm Russian trunnion which has different angles in the receiver cuts than the 4.5mm Bulgarian folding trunnions. Plus, not sure which stock you are wanting to do but it will require a 5.5mm butt stock which from what I have seen is only available in the polymer solid version (maybe SVD style fits 5.5mm, I'm not sure), whereas the Bulgarian 4.5mm stuff has the poly and triangle stocks available.

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That's a great thread. Between my friend and I we have a drill press, dremel and a mig welder to fill in the old rivet holes and grind them down.

 

Man I didint even know there were different size pins and I definitely don't want a polymer stock. I like the look of the tromix aluminum Skelton stocks. Man this is more complicated then I thought to build a decent conversion. I obviously have alot of research to do.

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After extensive research I've decided on my build

 

Izhmash side folding trunnion

Legion USA saiaga 12 front latch

Tromix fcg

AK builders trigger guard set rivet on

Chaos tri rail

Pistol grip still undecided. Maybe saw?

Russian AK100 triangle stock (metal)

Bolt hold open lever and spring

Vertical grip undecided still.

 

Going to weld rivet holes and grind down flush with receiver.

Planning on recoating the gun with norrells moly resin we already have a paint gun as well.

 

As for the barrel I'm going to leave it alone for now and the gas system most likely. May change later if I decide to make it sbs.

 

Ordering all the parts tomorrow. Hopefully I can have it done within 10 days.

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Get the Magpul MOE AK+ grip if you are not going to go with a traditional grip. The Hogue overmolded grips feel great as well, but they are kind of large. Both are more comfortable than the SAW grip and they only cost a few dollars more.

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So I have been reading these ak rivets require special tools and jigs to do the rear trunnion. People are saying that the bolt cutter method won't work for the rear trunion because it has long rivets or something. I have access to a hydraulic press and air hammer as well. Is there a way to rivet them with an air hammer?

Thanks

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So I have been reading these ak rivets require special tools and jigs to do the rear trunnion. People are saying that the bolt cutter method won't work for the rear trunion because it has long rivets or something. I have access to a hydraulic press and air hammer as well. Is there a way to rivet them with an air hammer?

Thanks

 

I do them with an "air hammer" but it's not the kind you buy at the hardware store...  I'm a practicing A&P mechanic and I use a 3x recoilless aircraft rivet gun from US Tool, which is about a $450 piece of equipment if you were to buy it new today.  An air rivet gun will take the same attachments as a plain air hammer, but it has calibrated blows and a "teasing trigger" for more precise work.  That's not to say you need as nice of a rivet gun as I have (which I bought primarily for working on aircraft), or that you can't do good work with a hardware store unit, but you'll be stacking the deck against yourself.

 

Not to mention there is a huge amount of skill involved with driving solid rivets, and a fairly steep learning curve.  Your irreplaceable Saiga is not really what you want to be learning on.  I have about a dozen AK builds under my belt, and I still screw up the rear trunnion rivets (which are more difficult to drive properly) sometimes and have to redo them.  Removing a bad rivet is a skill all its own.  At work I am the "broken screw guy" who gets called on to fix other people's boogered fasteners, so it isn't that big of a deal for me.

 

The Russian style folders are definitely cool, but I think overall you will probably be happier with either one of the ACE style cut tang conversions, or one of the bolt on units from Bonesteel Arms.  You have a better selection of stocks available to you that way, choice of whether it folds to the right or the left, and you can always go for the Russian style stock later if you are really sure that's what you want.  There's not really any going back from that.

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It can work, it will just be more difficult to control than one that is made for setting rivets.

 

Edit to add; my AK riveting tools:

 

akrivet.jpg

 

Usually for the rear trunnion rivets I use one of the rivet head dimples in my trigger guard jig for the manufactured head on the bottom, and drive the shop head with my rivet gun from the top, to get a rounded head on both sides.  Lately I have been starting with just a plain hammer and finishing with the air hammer (rivet gun pictured), which seems to give me a better result overall.

 

On the Russian folder trunnion (and the factory Saiga trunnion for that matter) you will probably find that not all the rivets pass all the way through, so the shop (bucked) head will need to be formed inside.  This is where a bucking tool like the one made from a bolt on the right may help.  It's clamped in a vise, and used as an anvil inside the receiver while the manufactured head is driven by the rivet gun on the outside.  Again, it takes a bit of practice to be able to get it right, especially if you don't have a helper to support the gun while you rivet.  There's pros and cons of having a helper hold it...  The guy riveting still needs to be in control of the angles/positioning, so a helper who isn't a spaz and who will hold the gun as you want it without fighting you is important.

Edited by Netpackrat
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The bucking tools were just made with a belt grinder.  They make a flat shop head when the rivet is set.  The one on the left is made to get inside the barrel hole in an AK front trunnion to set the upper two rivets on each side.  The other one was made to do the third rivet in the magwell, but it gets used for other things too, like installing a scope rail.  Which I don't generally do anymore because I am pretty much done with side rails.  I'm probably going to remove the side rail from my S-12 when I get around to it, like I did from my .308.

 

Edit:  It occurred to me you may have been asking about the rivet set with the dimple milled into the end, on the left in the row of rivet sets and punches for the pneumatic rivet gun.  That's a standard part:

 

http://www.ustool.com/sm10-4304-straight-rivet-p-165-l-en.html

 

There are many sizes and head styles available.  That particular one is for a 1/8" AN430 head rivet, which is an obsolete rivet style that is no longer used by the aviation industry, but which I think most closely approximates the heads of the rivets used on AKs.  The modern equivalent rivet is the AN470 (or MS20470, same thing) rivet which has less dome to the head and doesn't really match up with the AK rivet heads.  US Tool is the only place I have found that still carries the sets for AN430 rivets.

 

Honestly I think you would be better off with one of the bolt on solutions if you are going to try to do your own work.  In A&P school there was a class where we pretty much installed and drilled out solid rivets for days...  And those were aluminum rivets which were a lot easier to work with.  The steel rivets on AKs are much more difficult to set.

 

If you are determined to go with the Russian style folder and do your own work, consider spending the money on Curtis' riveting jig:

 

http://ak-builder.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29972

 

It's kinda spendy, and requires a hydraulic press, but it's probably the most foolproof method of setting the trunnion rivets.  Once you are done with your project you can probably turn around and sell it, and get most of your money back out of it.

Edited by Netpackrat
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Oh ok i thought the rivets has dimples on the inside and out didint know they were flat. I still need to make a bucking plate with a dimple for the long rivet though because it's dimpled on both ends. I guess if the air hammer bit is 1/8th inch head then I can use an 1/8 inch ball end mill to drill a dimple in a bucking plate to form the head on the long rivet.

As for removing the rivets. I will probably just grind the heads down and punch them out. Planning on welding up the old holes anyway so one way or another the gun will need recoating.

Edited by 703 CamaroSS
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These links are talking about aluminum rivets but the principles are the same:

 

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/buckrivetingbasicsinitialrelease.pdf

 

http://aviation.spenner.org/AircraftRivetsandSpecialFastners.pdf

 

There's a lot of crap in the second document that's extraneous to your needs, but there are also some really good explanations of the tools and principles in there.

 

The best way to remove old rivets is usually to drill the heads off, and then punch the rest out.  So, you would drill with a bit the same size as your rivet shank into the head, as deep as the thickness of the head.  Then if you were properly centered, you can put a punch of the same diameter into the hole you drilled, and snap the head off.  If you do it right there you can do it without any damage to the surrounding material (receiver).

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These links are talking about aluminum rivets but the principles are the same:

 

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/buckrivetingbasicsinitialrelease.pdf

 

http://aviation.spenner.org/AircraftRivetsandSpecialFastners.pdf

 

There's a lot of crap in the second document that's extraneous to your needs, but there are also some really good explanations of the tools and principles in there.

 

The best way to remove old rivets is usually to drill the heads off, and then punch the rest out.  So, you would drill with a bit the same size as your rivet shank into the head, as deep as the thickness of the head.  Then if you were properly centered, you can put a punch of the same diameter into the hole you drilled, and snap the head off.  If you do it right there you can do it without any damage to the surrounding material (receiver).

 

Netpack, excellent advice and information you supplied. Without the proper technique you will not achieve acceptable long term results...

703camaro he really is giving you great direction on how to correctly make sure you avoid issues.

Just my 2 cents

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Every piece of advice in here has been great since I have made this thread and I've been listening to all of it. Was going to order all my parts Friday but figured over the weekend the parts wouldn't move anyway till Monday. So I thought about it over the weekend and I'm ordering the above parts Monday minus the saw grip. I can't wait to get started. Shot 100 more rounds out of it today. Shot out to 30 yards this time and the gun does shoot amazing so I'm not going to mess with barrel or gas system as of now.

 

I also figured out why my Pro mag drum wasn't feeding. I guess the Remington 00 buck shells are slightly to big. I ran the federal tactual Law enforcement 00 buck with the drum and it didint mess up not even once.

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Netpack, excellent advice and information you supplied. Without the proper technique you will not achieve acceptable long term results...

703camaro he really is giving you great direction on how to correctly make sure you avoid issues.

Just my 2 cents

 

 

Thanks, I appreciate that a lot.

 

703, order extra rivets and practice a lot before you attempt any work on your Saiga.  On a stamped AK, one of the weak points is the rivet joints between the receiver and the rear trunnion, and barring some other built in defect, that's usually where they will fail at a high enough round count.  So it's very important that the rear trunnion rivets be correctly done.  A Saiga shotgun may have other weaknesses that will kill it first, but a poor riveting job on the rear trunnion is something that will degenerate quickly once the slightest looseness develops.

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Thanks for all the help. I ordered 2 sets of ak74 side folder rivets in case I mess up a few. Went with ak builder rivet on guard and ordered a hogue grip it looked really nice. Also ordered the grip nut to install it. Also got a an430 rivet set from the local matco guy for 12 bucks and it's going to be here by Friday. I'm going to make a new conversion thread when all my parts come in and I get started.

 

One of my co workers has two cnc machines so I'm going to have him cut the required holes in the receiver rather then use a Dremel.

Edited by 703 CamaroSS
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Well got everything removed. Pretty easy so far. Taking a break and gonna weld all the old holes up tonight. Then off to the cnc machine for cutting all the holes. Still waiting on my ak 100 stock from legion usa. Said it shipped 3 days ago. Shouldn't take that long to go from Florida to Virginia. I can't even track the package because under shipping it just says "legion usa shipping." Anyways here is a picture of where I'm at now.

 

20161015_135536_zpsni6mdu5l.jpg

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Trigger guard rivets are their own special ball of fuck.  They are very difficult to do without one of the purpose built jigs, FYI.

hmmm, i dont understand....

 

i take the OG guard, grind the extra crap off it, fold the front tab around 180 after heating redhot, then just make a shop head on the outside with any given flat bar, easy sleazy

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20161015_153925_zpsgyw2ckii.jpg

 

Well folding stock just showed up. Does this look like the correct front latch? I asked them to send me a front latch for a Saiga 12 instead of the standard ak latch. But the pin and spring look different from the one ak builder sells. Will this still work? It said on their site all parts are compatible minus the front latch. The pin fits the hole in the latch correctly. Opinions?

Edited by 703 CamaroSS
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