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Sim_Player

F-35 dominates Red Flag 2017

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It had a K/D Ratio of 15:1 up to close range, from what I understand, against F18s, F-15s, and F-16s

(I have also seen some claiming 20:0).

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a25078/f-35-red-flag-war-games/

 

Trump just brought the price down a lot, with the promise to buy 90.

That's countering 1,350 enemy 4th generation aircraft.

 

I never understood the lack of support for cutting-edge aircraft (see what I did there?).

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The way I read it, it sounds like a great, if over priced, electronics warfare aircraft.

But still a shitty 'Fighter'.

Read, it has to be protected while others do the dirty work.

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Aggressors being not only enemy fighters, but any type of threat, e.g. SAMs, radar and ECMs.

I also think they counted Kills made with their electronic assistance.

The story is slickly written to mislead about it's capabilities as a fighter.

Edited by ChileRelleno
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Could the entire Red Flag 2017 exercise be gun decked?  Dunno.  How about a direct dog fight between stripped down "clean" F16s?  Or ... "clean" big engine F86s?  No external stuff.  Guns only.  Knife range.  Humm.  Could we be coming too electronically oriented with dog fighting?  What would happen after a really big coronal mass ejection, (CME) from the sun or a really big enemy action orbital EMP?  What then?  Would/could the F35 even start?  Could the air force version even land on a carrier?  Duhh.  Another point of view only.

 

Respectfully.  Not a F35 fan.  The problem, not the solution.  The military industrial complex.  Me only.

Edited by HB of CJ

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A fleet of $$$$$$ air superiority fighters is all well and good. However we still need a BUNCH of cheap recon/ground attack/ infantry support planes.

German WWII tanks had a HUGE advantage in kill ratios, BUT we had thousands of the damned death traps! A 50>1 kill ratio does NOT win against 1,000> numerical superiority!

F-35, F-22 = great aircraft. BUT we need some that do not cost $35,000 an hour to fly!

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Aggressors being not only enemy fighters, but any type of threat, e.g. SAMs, radar and ECMs.

I also think they counted Kills made with their electronic assistance.

The story is slickly written to mislead about it's capabilities as a fighter.

If they counted shared kills, I don't think the generals would have been having an orgasm on video (I didn't form my opinion from one article).

 

Warfare is always changing.

 

Advanced RADAR tech basically won WW2, thanks to the Brits. We put RADAR on land, ships, subs, aircraft, and even bombs.

 

New technology is always expensive.

 

The Israelis have a Lear-size jet that creates it's own stealth profile on enemy RADAR.

 

It makes sense that they want to buy F-35s and modify the software.

 

I flew combat flight sims for about 15 years. Altitude and speed beat more maneuverable fighters, almost every time.

 

Tactics matter.

Edited by Sim_Player

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A fleet of $$$$$$ air superiority fighters is all well and good. However we still need a BUNCH of cheap recon/ground attack/ infantry support planes.

German WWII tanks had a HUGE advantage in kill ratios, BUT we had thousands of the damned death traps! A 50>1 kill ratio does NOT win against 1,000> numerical superiority!

F-35, F-22 = great aircraft. BUT we need some that do not cost $35,000 an hour to fly!

 

You Sir are correct.

 

Germany  learned this in WWII.  Their tanks were hardened and mostly superior, but, were greatly out numbered.  In this case, quality over quantity lost. 

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Aggressors being not only enemy fighters, but any type of threat, e.g. SAMs, radar and ECMs.

I also think they counted Kills made with their electronic assistance.

The story is slickly written to mislead about it's capabilities as a fighter.

If they counted shared kills, I don't think the generals would have been having an orgasm on video (I didn't form my opinion from one article).

 

Warfare is always changing.

 

Advanced RADAR tech basically won WW2, thanks to the Brits. We put RADAR on land, ships, subs, aircraft, and even bombs.

 

New technology is always expensive.

 

The Israelis have a Lear-size jet that creates it's own stealth profile on enemy RADAR.

 

It makes sense that they want to buy F-35s and modify the software.

 

I flew combat flight sims for about 15 years. Altitude and speed beat more maneuverable fighters, almost every time.

 

Tactics matter.

 

...a bit of history for you;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar

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A fleet of $$$$$$ air superiority fighters is all well and good. However we still need a BUNCH of cheap recon/ground attack/ infantry support planes.

German WWII tanks had a HUGE advantage in kill ratios, BUT we had thousands of the damned death traps! A 50>1 kill ratio does NOT win against 1,000> numerical superiority!

F-35, F-22 = great aircraft. BUT we need some that do not cost $35,000 an hour to fly!

 

Maybe a fleet of these?  A-29 Super Tacano.  :up:

 

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Super Tucano sounds like something someone would order from Taco Bell. I would like a big beef burito, 29 super tucanos, an order of cheesy fiesta potatoes and a large baja blast mountain dew please.

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We need fighters that are cheap and by the thousands.  I'm so sic of the MIC bullshit about how having this one fighter is worth an entire WWII air wing.  That air wing could cause 10,000 times the damage that that one fighter can.

 

Look at the F22 vs. the F15.  The F22 carries 4 missiles internal plus the gun.  The F15 8 missiles + bombs, or add a few more missiles, and then the gun.  Who's going to stay in the fight longer?

 

The same is true between the A10 and F16.  The A10 can carry a bomb load that the F16 couldn't even leave the ground with.

 

And every time they buy a shiny new toy, the force gets cut that much more!  Didn't we learn our lesson from GWII?  We need the real boots on the ground to win a battle, not some shiny expensive little toy!

 

What we need is about 1-2000 of the F20 Tigershark.  The old F5 airframe could match the F16, but the F5 was underpowered.  With the F20 design, the F5 could finally match the F16 at half the cost.

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Remember, it isn't the machine, but the operator.  That is what got our asses initially kicked in the air at the beginning of the Vietnam War.  Pilots were not trained for dog fighting...it was a 'thing' of the past, despite very experienced and senior pilots protesting against it. 

 

I have no doubt that the F35 is a great plane.  But at what cost?  I GUARANTEE that a plane, just as superior, could be built for half the cost.  But with kick-backs, over inflation of cost estimates, congressional pork/favors, it will not happen.

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The F20 was the plane we needed and deserved. But the contractors and top brass were so in love with their F16 that they couldn't see what was obvious to everyone else. I think it's interesting that it would come up here because only week ago I was telling my son about that plane.

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Remember, it isn't the machine, but the operator.  That is what got our asses initially kicked in the air at the beginning of the Vietnam War.  Pilots were not trained for dog fighting...it was a 'thing' of the past, despite very experienced and senior pilots protesting against it. 

 

I have no doubt that the F35 is a great plane.  But at what cost?  I GUARANTEE that a plane, just as superior, could be built for half the cost.  But with kick-backs, over inflation of cost estimates, congressional pork/favors, it will not happen.

True on that!

 

When my father was at Ft. Sill, he got to talk with a Rockwell radar tech. (Dad also worked for Rockwell)  The tech told him about the overrun problem on the new fire control radar being fielded.  They start out with a damn good radar, and go into production.  Then the Army wants to add some new features, so production stops and things get retooled and A model starts rolling.  The Army then wants even newer features, so production stops again.  B model starts rolling, and on and on.....  This constant start and stop crap is what drives up the costs.  If they'd just build the whole run without stop, there would be no overruns.

 

I think the F5 was a damn pretty airframe!  That plane just looks fast!  Too bad they underpowered it!

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A fleet of $$$$$$ air superiority fighters is all well and good. However we still need a BUNCH of cheap recon/ground attack/ infantry support planes.

German WWII tanks had a HUGE advantage in kill ratios, BUT we had thousands of the damned death traps! A 50>1 kill ratio does NOT win against 1,000> numerical superiority!

F-35, F-22 = great aircraft. BUT we need some that do not cost $35,000 an hour to fly!

 

Maybe a fleet of these?  A-29 Super Tacano.  032.gif

 

 

since this thread got bumped back up......

Looks like a trainer to me.....

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Too WW II !   I would like to see a 'current tech' Re-do of the Warthog.

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Just remember, some of that WW II tech could provide surprises on a modern battlefield.  A stinger missile cannot lock on a piston aircraft as it's too cool for the IR sensor! 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a B24 ground attack plane.  Vulcans fore and aft, and 48 hellfires in the bomb bay.  And if the engines are trimmed right, they could chew you up before you could hear them.

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We need a modernized attack plane. High sub sonic cruise speed, and the loiter ability to 'play all day'. Needs to be at LEAST as tough as the warthog, and have the ability to shoot down /jam drones and survive in congested urban environments.   

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We need a modernized attack plane. High sub sonic cruise speed, and the loiter ability to 'play all day'. Needs to be at LEAST as tough as the warthog, and have the ability to shoot down /jam drones and survive in congested urban environments.   

Good summary. The A10 is an amazingly survivable platform. It's a tall order. I say we keep the GAU-8, and the titanium cockpit. Build around that. Multiple hardpoints for external payloads. State of the art electronics/avionics, with HUD (built with ease of use in mind, not the overly complex mess we have in some aircraft), EM hardened. Propulsion? Jet, prop, antigrav, I don't care. ...and MAKE SURE you can communicate with the warfighters on the ground.

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And make the damn thing EASY TO FIX AND MAINTAIN!!!   No more weapons that need 10 hours maintenance to work for 2 hours!

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and make me 2" longer!  smile.png

Dammit, now you got this stuck in my head. mad.giflaugh.png

 

 

 

Dag nab it, they cut out best line at the end where Campbell says "your mothers been telling stories about me again" to Hamish. mad.gif

 

And how come Firefox seems to really suck lately when it comes to cutting and pasting in links and shit? :angry2:

Edited by Gaddis

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