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What is Most Important in Self-Defense Ammo


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I've been considering getting a new pistol for EDC since even though I bought my Tokarev as a do-it-all pistol after buying my custom Zebrawood grips for it and it being my first pistol I feel too much sentimentality to carry it. 

I'm now trying to understand, as far as rounds go, what everyone thinks is most important? At first I thought it was force/energy and that that translated to more damage but seeing gel tests that doesn't seem universally true. My next thought would be permanent wound cavity but a lot of the most touted rounds I hear so much about for carry ammo leave relatively thin and uniform paths in gel. Is temporary wound cavity the more important aspect? Or do none of these things really manner compared to penetration or some other quality I've no considered yet?

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100% feed and function proven in my hand gun over a minimum of 100 rounds and many different mags.  Terminal ballistics proven.  A factory load.  The cost to me is way down the list.  If the stuff works, then yep ... I could pay $5.00 a round for carry ammo.  Also must be in a major caliber handgun.

 

This means at least a .45 acp or better.  Also means a good 12 gage slug that would also work.  Assume body armor.  Assume pumped up drug addicts.  Assume an instant situation not of your own making.  Also assume knife range or closer.  Lots of assumptions but there you have it.  Lots of choices.

 

Don't forget the high powered rifle.  .30 caliber or better.

Edited by HB of CJ
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For direct CNS hits it doesn't  really matter what kind of cavity it creates on the way. In the event that the round doesn't hit the CNS or some vital organ, a larger wound cavity will cause more bleeding. Any good expanding SD round will more or less do the same job of accomplishing that while at the same time reducing the risk of a complete pass through and hitting an unintended target.

 

The ability to take accurate follow-up shots if needed is more important than the otherwise inconsequential differences between a Gold Dot and and an HST or a 9mm and a .45*. If you're considering a compact or subcompact for EDC, recoil differences between calibers will be much more noticeable and will affect controllability. If you're considering carrying a full-sized frame, the capacity difference between calibers also starts to become larger. In either scenario, 9mm has a fairly large advantage. For that reason, I consider 9mm to be the best choice for SD purposes. 

 

*My personal opinion. Take with a grain of salt. 

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I agree with w8, if you want the best all around carry piece and don't need a subcompact get a glock19 they are sized +just right. They always work and are plenty accurate. People will fuss about .45 vs 9mm till the end of time. Truth is if you don't get a good shot both are garbage. And its a hell of a lot eaiser to miss with a compact 45 than it is a 9mm. That's a truth that can't be refuted by 45 fan boys.

 

As far as your original question. Function is 100% the number one priority with SD ammo. Pick a good hollow point from a known ammo maker and it will work just fine. Remember shot placement is paramount. If you put 10 $5 per round top of the line wizzbang super hollow point 45s is someone's gut it won't do what a 38 wadcutter will in their heart.

Edited by Ak Monty
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I used to run night calls to DC Public Housing. I have had to pull my piece to defend myself more than once. NEVER had to pop a cap.

The only gun to save my life was a .25 Beretta. Merely showing what was in my hand worked like Moses parting the red sea.

lessons learned:

1.You have to CARRY the damn thing! Make it something light and small enough TO carry.

2.Rotate your ammo. Banging around every day is not the best way to store ammo! change the ammo out regularly, and rim fire rounds can NEVER be trusted to

  go  BANG, especially after rough handling.

3.LASER GRIPS RULE!

4. Clean the damn thing at least weekly, more often if you are banging around in dirty places      (like elevator shafts).

5.You will only ever have the opportunity to defend yourself from AMATEURS. Any professional will hit you hard and fast - it will be over before you see it 

  coming.Fortunately most muggers and thieves are just armature punks looking for an easy score. NEVER EVER LOOK LIKE AN EASY SCORE!

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A lot of folks are going to have absolutes that are in reality just opinions, some are very good opinions but still not absolutes.

 

Skill is by far, IMO, the most important aspect. That makes you the most critical factor and you the expert on it.

This is also the most expense and longest term problem anyone faces, being ready when the time comes.

 

Have some legal aid lined up ahead of time, join USCCA or other as you wish, lot of training info on their site AND real life experiences which can be invaluable.

The thing is one cannot be prepared for everything but you can be prepared for just that.

I grantee something will happen you had no way to forecast, that is hard lesson there. 

 

Sounds barbaric but it is none the less true in these matters "have a plan to kill anyone you meet".

That means you are always thinking about it and more likely to avoid trouble as well as handle it if unavoidable.

 

Your mind is the best weapon or worst enemy that is your call ahead of time that is what must be prepared.

 

Ok off the soapbox now I will quickly say how I went on carry ammo and this is entirely a matter of my opinions.

Of course as close to 100% reliable as possible, knowing it is a goal never quite reached. Feeds, accuracy, and such all belong here.

Any good quality ammo will do this.

 

As much damage to the target as practical. Any decent SD ammo will do this.

 

The ability to penetrate at least the lighter more cheaply available body armor. It is getting more common and yes more and more bad guys are using it.

 Ah not much will be any good against IIIA and above in pistols but the newer machined bullets are a big step and some will work on many IIIA designs.

 

Based on this I went with Liberty Civil Defense and picked up  a few side benefits.

Accuracy improved at 10 meters and above range, higher velocity flatter shooting with less recoil.

Much lower weight in particular when carrying a lot of rounds and or larger calibers.

I was so impressed with the results of my testing of it to load it in all my carbines as well, even better results from them.

 

If you are recoil sensitive due to whatever, the reduction was significant which only aids the shooter no matter what caliber you decide on.

 

And that is about all 

Edited by Rhodes1968
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I have bvac jhp remans that i have now relegated to shtf.

 

I have win white jhps and i am not sure what high priced jhp i have in my ammo storage, just haven't looked at the high priced as it was given to me by a guy getting out of semi amd going strictly revolver.

 

Ive looked at the machined brass bullets, even contemplated the rip ammo, just haven't made a solid decision on full time sd ammo.

 

As for 12gauge, I have black cloud loaded as my home defense round for the s12.

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I avoided the most radically shaped, like RIP, ammo due to feeding concerns, where the CD ammo shape is effectively as close to fmj in feeding as to be of no concern.

Even some JHP ammo is touchy about feeding 100% in some firearms. 

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I have bvac jhp remans that i have now relegated to shtf.

 

I have win white jhps and i am not sure what high priced jhp i have in my ammo storage, just haven't looked at the high priced as it was given to me by a guy getting out of semi amd going strictly revolver.

 

Ive looked at the machined brass bullets, even contemplated the rip ammo, just haven't made a solid decision on full time sd ammo.

 

As for 12gauge, I have black cloud loaded as my home defense round for the s12.

Hope that Black Cloud is buckshot, or you'll be pissin in the wind!  Birdshot is strictly for the birds! 

 

My first S-12 kill was made on a rabid coyote at 10 yds.  Took 30 rounds of target loads to stop him dead.  I knocked him over at round 5, and it took another 25 to stop all movement.  The problem with birdshot is penetration. #2 will give maybe 2" of penetration on a duck, which is normally enough, but I've seen mallards take 9 solid hits of #2 at 15 yards and fly off.  Also, birdshot can be deflected by biker jackets. Yeah, a head shot with a good duck load is going to be one painful lesson, but it will open you up to a lawsuit.  Minimum shot size should be #1 buck for HD.   

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I have bvac jhp remans that i have now relegated to shtf.

 

I have win white jhps and i am not sure what high priced jhp i have in my ammo storage, just haven't looked at the high priced as it was given to me by a guy getting out of semi amd going strictly revolver.

 

Ive looked at the machined brass bullets, even contemplated the rip ammo, just haven't made a solid decision on full time sd ammo.

 

As for 12gauge, I have black cloud loaded as my home defense round for the s12.

Hope that Black Cloud is buckshot, or you'll be pissin in the wind! Birdshot is strictly for the birds!

 

My first S-12 kill was made on a rabid coyote at 10 yds. Took 30 rounds of target loads to stop him dead. I knocked him over at round 5, and it took another 25 to stop all movement. The problem with birdshot is penetration. #2 will give maybe 2" of penetration on a duck, which is normally enough, but I've seen mallards take 9 solid hits of #2 at 15 yards and fly off. Also, birdshot can be deflected by biker jackets. Yeah, a head shot with a good duck load is going to be one painful lesson, but it will open you up to a lawsuit. Minimum shot size should be #1 buck for HD.

Its a mixture of #3 bird and 000 buck. I felt that with hunting loads I'd be in a little less issues being judged by 12 then some of the other loads being pushed for hd, especially out of a converted s12.

 

Black Cloud is an interesting take on the traditional birdshot, I was drawn in by the cutting edges.

Edited by montec
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WHAT you have is irrelevant!  THAT you HAVE it is what is important, and it MUST go BANG! if needed. Spend the money on laser grips, and use reliable ball ammo that feeds.

Carry a gun that you CAN carry. A small framed person is gonna get TIRED of carrying that .44mag, or that 455 grizzly in short order. A .380 or even a.25 that you actually WILL carry is more protection than a big bore pistol that is home in the safe because it is uncomfortable to carry.

Again LASER GRIPS RULE! Is there someone in that dark place you have to walk by? A quick scan with a laser and if there was some whoop ass there, you will know by the sound of running feet. I have found that the stairs in public housing often contain more than shadows - but a bit of red light causes 2 legged vermin to scurry away into the darkness!

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For a pistol I would recommend something small that has a decent trigger. A LCP II or LC9S are both considered decent carry pistols.. I can't see carrying a .45 or a full sized glock, they are huge, unless you wear a coat all the time or are HUGE there is no hiding a pistol that size..

I'm fat and I can't get a Glock 19 to hide, I'm currently dropping weight due to a huge reduction in stress eating (thanks trump... Does that make it a yuge reduction?), with every few pounds the lumpiness that would hide a pistol is going away.. So I am currently looking more and more at an LCP II instead of an LC9S

 

As for ammo. SGAmmo has decent 9mm and .380 that is LE grade.. You should use decent stuff that cycles and is affordable enough to rotate by actually using it at the range from time to time.

I don't use +P ammo as I find it makes follow up shots nearly impossible in a small pistol.. LE ammo seems to primarily focus on feeding reliably and ballistic gel performance is sort of secondary. A giant open point may open great, but they feed poorly. 

Edited by csspecs
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I'm impressed at how sensible and grounded the statements in this thread are. Are we sure this is still a gun forum?

 

W8Lifter covered 95% of what there is to learn about terminal effects.

 

 

 

3.LASER GRIPS RULE!

 

 

^ What he said about a convincing and threatening display being the main way a gun works to protect you. IMO lasers multiply the convincing part and do a good job of being a light and confirming your aim or compensating for awkward/ injured shooting conditions. Instinctive activation too. Get a green one if you can.

 

I've been threatened a few times, but never directly fealt that a person intended to kill me. Dogs a few times though, and knowing I could make good hits in a cold foggy night in the snow when surrounded by coyotes made me really appreciate both decent 9mm capacity and a CTC laser. Having a functional way out does wonders for making a sketchy situation turn into an interesting one.

 

 

There are at least 20 viable choices out there and you won't go wrong with any of them. In the last year, I've mostly steered friends who asked me toward either the Hornady products or the winchester "train and defend"  9mm standard pressure 147 grainers. My reasons are these: both are reliable and in the top few percent of performance. Both are marginally edged out by one or two of the very best performers. However, you can find them in stock all the time, everywhere, and in the case of the winchester, even for reasonable prices. With the T&D, the results in many loadings are indistinguishable from the HST, but the cost is about half. That means you can keep all your mags full, rotate ammo, even practice a bit. Also the training ammo shoots the same and is relatively affordable. I think it is a very sensible system, and I want to reward the manufacturer for actually selling a product at a reasonable price geared to be used how the end user should use it. Also worth noting that the Win Defend standard pressure 147 9mm gave good ballistic performance out of short pistols, duty size and PCC. Many of the top tier performers don't do that as well.

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For a pistol I would recommend something small that has a decent trigger. A LCP II or LC9S are both considered decent carry pistols.. I can't see carrying a .45 or a full sized glock, they are huge, unless you wear a coat all the time or are HUGE there is no hiding a pistol that size..

I'm fat and I can't get a Glock 19 to hide, I'm currently dropping weight due to a huge reduction in stress eating (thanks trump... Does that make it a yuge reduction?), with every few pounds the lumpiness that would hide a pistol is going away.. So I am currently looking more and more at an LCP II instead of an LC9S

 

As for ammo. SGAmmo has decent 9mm and .380 that is LE grade.. You should use decent stuff that cycles and is affordable enough to rotate by actually using it at the range from time to time.

I don't use +P ammo as I find it makes follow up shots nearly impossible in a small pistol.. LE ammo seems to primarily focus on feeding reliably and ballistic gel performance is sort of secondary. A giant open point may open great, but they feed poorly. 

It requires a lot of tilt (for me, adjustable Safariland holster) since hiding the butt is the most difficult part of carry for most mid to fullsize guns. I carry a Gen 4 G22 converted to 9mm with +2 extension and I hide it very well. I am built about perfectly for carry though.

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For a pistol I would recommend something small that has a decent trigger. A LCP II or LC9S are both considered decent carry pistols.. I can't see carrying a .45 or a full sized glock, they are huge, unless you wear a coat all the time or are HUGE there is no hiding a pistol that size..

I'm fat and I can't get a Glock 19 to hide, I'm currently dropping weight due to a huge reduction in stress eating (thanks trump... Does that make it a yuge reduction?), with every few pounds the lumpiness that would hide a pistol is going away.. So I am currently looking more and more at an LCP II instead of an LC9S

 

As for ammo. SGAmmo has decent 9mm and .380 that is LE grade.. You should use decent stuff that cycles and is affordable enough to rotate by actually using it at the range from time to time.

I don't use +P ammo as I find it makes follow up shots nearly impossible in a small pistol.. LE ammo seems to primarily focus on feeding reliably and ballistic gel performance is sort of secondary. A giant open point may open great, but they feed poorly.

It requires a lot of tilt (for me, adjustable Safariland holster) since hiding the butt is the most difficult part of carry for most mid to fullsize guns. I carry a Gen 4 G22 converted to 9mm with +2 extension and I hide it very well. I am built about perfectly for carry though.

You would be surprised how little people notice a glock 19 outside the waist band with a shirt over it.

 

I've owned an lc9 and pf9. At the time I obtained someone old reloading stuff. They had a bunch of old lead 9mm rounds. I tried them in both guns just to see what would happen. The pf9 shot them with no issues. The lc9 would jam up where the spent case would stick in the barrel. I don't fault the gun as factory ammo never have me a problem. I attribute this to the ruger having been built to tighter tolerances. This combined with the smaller and lighter side of the keltec made me sell the ruger. I really like the pf9 it's a great size and the price is right.

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I have an LCP, LC9 and LC9S. The LC9S is a great overall carry gun. VASTLY improved (and I'd even say "nice") trigger over the LC9, decent capacity, 100% reliable with factory ammo and has a small print, even when pocket carrying. It's also surprisingly accurate out to 25yds. I also have a Kimber Ultra Carry HD in .45 but even with the extra heft of the stainless steel frame, the recoil difference between that and the LC9S is night and day.

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How do you find out if you can hide a gun before you buy it [or can you even test this out beforehand]? I'd hate to shell out on a carry gun only to realize I can't hide it well, or to be forced to buy such a small gun its no fun to practice with just so I know I can hide it. 

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Build has a lot to do with what, how, and where you can effectively carry. For example, love handles can make it difficult to carry a pistol and in some cases may even hide the weapon better. A revolver in the front pocket (hammerless like Airweight or LCR) is universally easy as long as the pants or shorts will accommodate it. Broad shoulders and a fairly trim waistline can be big time assets for carry. What will work or what is best really depends on your build.

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So it's always trial and error? I mean I figured most gun shops aren't cool with you shoving their products in your pants but I held out hope that they were actually cool about it. 

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Most gun shops I go to would be totally cool with you trying on a gun and holster combo. As long as they made a sell. It would be a dick move to window shop in that manner.

 

But from my experience it's easy to shoot or easy to carry. Pick one. Although the small guns tendencies to be hard to shoot well can almost always be over come. I actually shoot smaller groups with my lcr shooting 357 than 38. I don't know why that is. Maybe a concerted effort in terms of grip, sight alignment, and trigger pull since I know it's going to kick like a mule on meth.

 

And as far as carry gun I hands down recommend a small 38 or 357 if you don't mind the little bit of extra weight. they carry great in almost any method andwith training you can shoot them very well. Also they don't jam. Check out the smith and wesson 642 or 442 pro. they come cut for moonclips and with no lock and case hardened internals not the MIM parts of the production guns. The trigger is very good on these guns. I have both. And i prefer the Smith trigger over the LCR that everyone seems to think is the be all end all of snubnose triggers. I just couldn't justify the 800 bucks for the Smith airweight 357 and I really like the fact the lcr can fire 357 only weighs 5 oz more than the Smith340 and costs half as much.

Edited by Ak Monty
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Depends a lot on the holster, too. I've found I like pancake-style holsters the best, and have some loose shirts I wear over them. IWB holsters are generally just not comfortable for me.

If you drive a lot, find a good shoulder holster.

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Depends a lot on the holster, too. I've found I like pancake-style holsters the best, and have some loose shirts I wear over them. IWB holsters are generally just not comfortable for me.

If you drive a lot, find a good shoulder holster.

I've gotten used to iwb appendix carry. Its not the the best for speed of presention but great for hiding the gun. That plus when im in public with a gun on my side I'm always worried about who is standing next to me. With appendix im basically hovering over the gun.
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Concealment is mostly a matter of misdirection. A bulge somewhere should never print as a gun butt or barrel. Pancake holsters are good at loosing the PROFILE that screams GUN! Camera cases work when you cannot hide the gun on your body - when it is hot, you may NOT be able to 'body carry', due to light summer clothing. The big consideration, is to have it with OR on you, and have it NOT look like a gun.

Do not worry about whether it is totally invisible - that is not  reasonable. Just make sure it does not LOOK like a gun.

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I was thinking of getting a faux laptop case for the summer months when I can't wear over-clothing without being the stereotypical "Hawaiian shirt over normal outfit on a 100 degree day" person. I tend to wear hoodies over my clothes for 75% of the year anyway so its really only summer I have to worry about.  Then I could carry either OWB under the hoodie or in a vertical shoulder holster so I'm not muzzle-sweeping everyone behind me all the time. 

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