[thinking]

This should be what you can consistantly shoot with your best shooting ammo. Please tell what ammo this is with. Also if the saiga is stock or has had some work.
My 223 likes hornady 75gr BTHP match ammo to be able to shoot around 2" (usually a little over 2"). Cheap ammo equals larger groups. Over 4" with wolf and similar prices rounds. My saiga has had the trigger converted with the adjustible trigger set at only 3 lbs. for the second stage during bench rest shooting.

This post has been edited by thinking: 28 July 2004 - 07:12 PM

[Siagalova]

2" is where I think I'm at, I have the 20" 7.62X39.
wolf is all I'll buy. I did get some silver bear "match". It said match, but I don't see how it could be at the price it was!
The only way to judge this is the width of a beer bottle is 2.5"! i can hit them standing at 100 'bout 75% (mostly human error). with a rest, like the car, they get hit almost every time.
I feel that too much further is lucky(with the beer bottles), the amount of error doesn't just double at 200 yds, it's a triangle that spreads further out with distance.

I get the impression that wolf ammo is a kinda crap shoot. seems I've tried to setup real good (with a red dot), and hit stuff 200 or more, and the bullet hit in different spots. not vary scientific.

good question though - -when I get some glass I'll test the rifle and see.

This post has been edited by Siagalova: 29 July 2004 - 11:56 AM

[metroplex]

FWIW, My VEPR K (no muzzle brake, 16.5" barrel) using Wolf 122gr HP or FMJ 7.62x39 shoots 3-4 MOA at the start when I'm fresh and ready to shoot. As the session drags on, and my body starts hurting from the recoil (and my rifle does have recoil and muzzle climb even with single loads) it can get as bad as 8 MOA.

I can't keep the rifle from jumping up and back violently.

[thinking]

I have been asked about the MOA and how it compaires to the group size. Why is 1 MOA the same as 1" at 100yds?
Well first the MOA stands for "minute of angle". Most everyone knows about degrees in an angle. A right angle is 90 degrees, there are 360 degrees in a circle, etc. Well, just like hours, degrees can be broken down into minutes and seconds. There are 60 minutes in a degree and 60 seconds in a minute. This has almost been a forgotten method becuase you see degrees in decimal form so much.
Anyway, one minute of angle is a very slight (or acute) angle. Using trigonomitry you can see that the size of the angle after 100 yards is only about 1" (tan(1/60)3600)=1.047 where there are 3600 inches in 100 yards. Although it is not exact, it is close enough to call 1" at 100yds about 1 MOA.
FYI mildot scopes are based on a different angle measurement system knows as radians. In radian, 2pi is equal to a full circle. Pi is usually show as the greek symbol pi but I can not type it here. The mil in mildot stands for milliradian which is 1/1000 of a radian. This works very well for ranging because the tangent of one milliradian is .001000000. This as close to one "unit" as you can get. So at 100 yds you would have .1 yards of distance between the dots or 3.6". So whether you are using english or metric it is alway 1/1000 of that unit. At 1000 meters the distance between the dots is 1 meter or at 1000 yards it is 1 yard.

[metroplex]

How many here really shoot 2" at 100 yd (on paper targets, not beer cans or cans or jugs)?

The Arsenal shooters say only expert shooters get close to 2" at 100 yd... I do not know if this is because the ammo isn't good or what, but the best I've been doing is sub-1" at 50 yd using Winchester USA FMJ and Barnaul JHP through my 16.5" VEPR K 7.62x39

If the Saigas are really tacking out 2" at 100 yd using WOLF... then holy schitt the Saigas are accurate. I can get 0.5" to 5" at 50 yd using Wolf, it's a crap shoot really. Random groupings up the wazoo.

[JTLFlutes]

I'm using 168 sierra match king, handloads for my 16" .308. I'll get two almost touching then blow one out and end up with an 1 1/2 to 2 MOA group. This has something to do with the gas piston, but I don't know how to get around it.

[metroplex]

Forgot to mention... 0.308 and 0.223 based Saigas/VEPRs shouldn't really apply.

The reason being is that they're somehow more accurate anyhow. The 308 VEPRs all shoot very very tight groups with surplus ammo. The same goes for the 223 VEPRs.

It's the 7.62x39 non-SKS rifles that seem to have difficulty hitting sub 2" groups at 100 yd consistently.

This post has been edited by metroplex: 01 September 2004 - 06:15 PM

[Siagalova]

Look at the saiga 7.62X39 I posted my latest groups with wolf ammo at 70-80 yds, and 110yds free standing - with a newly aquired scope (4X's).
metro-just for you, I thinnk it was called.

[JTLFlutes]

OK, I just cut down my group size today. 5" 400 yrds, 6" @ 500yrds, 5-3/4"@ 600 yrds. I kept woundering why my gun always blew the first round out of every group I shot, then I realized what was happening....If I hand chamber a round it blows out, but if I just shoot what the rifle chambers the groups stay tight!

[metroplex]

What ammo were you using?
What rifle were you using (Barrel length, etc...)?
Open sights/Scope?

In MI, I have to use single loads only - meaning I hand chamber each round. It's a stupid state law that is enforced when shooting on state operated firing ranges ($5/day vs $300/year for membership dues at a private facility)

The best I've been doing is 0.7" @ 100 yd using 7.62x39 Corbon 125gr JHP in my 16.5" barreled VEPR K with a 8-32x44 BSA scope.

From your range and grouping, I'm guessing you have a 0.308 or 0.223 rifle, more likely the 0.308??? At 500yd and 600yd, 7.62x39 drops 120" if you zero it at 100yd.

This post has been edited by metroplex: 11 September 2004 - 08:25 PM

[JTLFlutes]

I'm using a 16" .308 siaga, with a over the barrle KVAR mount, and leupold w/mil-dots. My freind has an 800 yrd range, (according to the laser range finder). I am using 168 sierra BTHPMK handloads, w/moly, and the barrel is molyied as well. When I tried using the 175 gr. the rounds flew all over, my barrel does NOT like them. I have a Kahr 9mm, and it has a tendency to throw the first hand chambered round, this is what gave me the idea to not hand chamber anything after the first round with the Siaga, it seems to work!

[metroplex]

Nice setup!
What brand of bullets are you using?

I would expect such fine performance from a 0.308 based AK (approximately 1 MOA).

I may reconsider getting an AR15 and just look for another VEPR but in 0.308 :cool:

This post has been edited by metroplex: 12 September 2004 - 03:51 PM

[JTLFlutes]

I'm using my dads handloads, very, very good. I had to raise the POA 23 MOA at 600yrds, using a 200yrd zero, running about 2200 fps,(I'm quessing). I will shoot out to 800yrds in about two weeks, wounder how many MOA I will use?

[GunOwner]

Just wondering about this accuracy question. All the Saigas I have seen (about 12 - .308s and .223s) have test sheets included in the box that show the accuracy of the guns when they left the factory. Almost all of them show groups of about 4" (about 100cm) at 100 yards. Just wondering how it is so many people are getting 2" and better groups - often with no mods and cheap factory ammo? Is there a difference in the way things are being measured or ?

[ironhead7544]

Scopes make a big difference. The stock sights are not too precise and are made for fast combat. Also a trigger job will help your groups a lot. I use a match bullet in my 308-1 and the accuracy is much improved. If you handload I think you can get 1 MOA out of the 308. I havent tried loading for the 7.62x39 but with the price of ammo going up I just may try it.

[THE_HUNTER]

Yeah,I really need to get a trigger job on my Saiga full length .308 and better ammo that cheap Indian ammo.I will probably eventually get a replacement trigger group for it.Any recommendations or ways of helping my existing trigger?

[IffenWhen]

Saiga .308 + South African 147gr + 8x24 POSP scope & G2 trigger = 1.5...2 inch groups all afternoon! paper targets at 100 yards with Shoot&See sight ins Did it yesterday testing out the new 20 round mags......OH YEAH I LIKES IT!!!!!

[Hunter78]

My saiga 7.62x39 20" cut down to 16" can hit my 3" spinner pretty consistantly (90% or better) at 100yrds ussing wolf . I'm to lazy to keep running down with paper targets. I see no differnce in accuracy since cutting my barrel either.

[Leo@VKA]

100 yard 762x39 , shot from a sand bag rest, trimmed barrel to 16 inches, 11 degree crown, vortex break.

Attached File(s)

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[jhereg]

My 308 shoots about 1 1/2 to to 2" groups w/ some commercially reloaded FMJ ammo I shoot. I've tried some ballistic tip ammo loaded by the same person, but it opens up to 4". I haven't had a chance to shoot his SP ammo for groups yet, and I'm still getting my stuff together to reload again so the FMJ is the best ammo I've had a chance to shoot.

[MacMan]

I was able to group an 1 1/2" 5 shot group @100 yards out of my converted Saiga 7.62X39 16" using Brown Bear 124 gr sp.

The time I went to the range prior to that I got a 2 1/4" 6 shot group @70 yards using Golden Tiger 123gr FMJ. And there are two through almost the same hole in that group.

In either case I can break clay pigeons all day long @100 yards no matter what ammo I use, except Wolf Black Box.

I have a nice smooth K-var FCG, and an Eotech red dot sight on top an Ultimak rail. Usually, If I can see it I can hit with this set up.

This post has been edited by MacMan: 23 April 2008 - 07:00 PM

[ClickClickD'oh]

.308-1 with 8x Posp shooting 150gr Hornady SSTs gives 1" @ 100. With mil-surp it opens up to about 2".

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff]

I can consistently get a 20 shot hole from one mag that's around 1.5 inches. That's from the 308 with nosler competition 168 grain BTHP's and 43.5gr of Ramshot TAC. Occasionally, I will throw a flier, but I've shot the S308 enough that it's getting to the point when I can tell if it's me... As far as soft point hunting ammo goes, it's closer to 2 inches with hornady 165 grain soft points.

Considering that's performance which is on par with most published tests of budget bolt guns that run nearly as many $'s (such as the lower end offerings from mossberg, marlin, remington, and stevens) it's a keeper.

[vujade]

for the data above... is that with iron sights or with some sort of scope? and for the really good groups - must be good ammo right?

wondering... at 100 yards. with a hasty sling using cheapest ammo - (i basically just cover the target (a sheet of paper) with the front sight). i got 3 bullets covering 3/4 of an 8x11 paper - all scattered around a central orange target dot. is that ok and typical of a 7.62x39 saiga? or do i need much more practice?

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff]

Any 20 shot group that can be described as a hole is almost always the result of decent optics, shooting off the bench, and very high quality ammuniton. In my case that's handloads which are sized, then case trimmed, then weight sorted, filled with hand measured powder charges, topped off with weighed and ogive measured bullets which are as consistent as the lot will allow. And yes, it does take forever to produce 100 quality rounds that way.

If given a choice between lesser ammo and losing the optics, I'd keep the optics. They make that much of a difference. On some guns with superior iron sights, it's not a big difference, but with the saiga the stock sights are pretty minimalist.

[Gas Giant]

I was getting 12" groups with my S12 at 40 yards with Brenneke 1 oz slugs,

Don't have the 7.62 sighted in yet.

[SJgunguy24]

My twins are 2 Saiga 7.62 X 39's 16" barrels 1 says 124mm and the other says 132mm. I was quite suprised when I shot them for the first time. We were shooting steel and Tannerite and both rifles were so close I put the sight tool away. I've NEVER had that happen with any american made rifle. We set up some 10 X 10in. steel targets on a hill accross a canyon (200-225yards) and both Saiga's had rounds dancing and hitting the steel. I'm impressed the factory took time to site the rifles in. All my shots were off hand. If i'm in a fight something tells me the enemy won't let me set up a table to get a steady shot at them. Mostly Wolf black box and some Russian surplus I got 4 years ago. Compared to prices now that was cheap,1320 rounds 150$

This post has been edited by SJgunguy24: Today, 04:37 AM

[hogdog]

SJgunguy24, on Aug 19 2008, 06:39 AM, said:

My twins are 2 Saiga 7.62 X 39's 16" barrels 1 says 124mm and the other says 132mm. I was quite suprised when I shot them for the first time. We were shooting steel and Tannerite and both rifles were so close I put the sight tool away. I've NEVER had that happen with any american made rifle. We set up some 10 X 10in. steel targets on a hill accross a canyon (200-225yards) and both Saiga's had rounds dancing and hitting the steel. I'm impressed the factory took time to site the rifles in. All my shots were off hand. If i'm in a fight something tells me the enemy won't let me set up a table to get a steady shot at them. Mostly Wolf black box and some Russian surplus I got 4 years ago. Compared to prices now that was cheap,1320 rounds 150$

This post has been edited by SJgunguy24: Today, 04:37 AM

I had essentially the same experience with my converted Saiga 16" 7.62X39. I shot it to check the iron sights before mounting a scope, and I found that the iron sights were dead on from the factory. I don't know if that is always the case, but I was happy. Anyway, I have a 1.5-4.5X scope on the gun now, and I get solid 2 MOA accuracy with Wolf black box ammo.

[Gas Giant]

Well I didn't need to site in the M 7.62 x 39 it was already there.
I put the scope on and adjusted it as close as I could and then fine tuned at the range, IT ROCKS!! at 100 yards my first shot hit the right of the smallest ring! (See range report, other thread w/ Pics)