lollygagger 1 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Due to unresolvable reliability problems, the project was scrapped. I received an email from Tony, it appears his project is dead . . . Larry Wow! We are really all on our own in this regard. I think we are going to have to settle on the most appropriate way to address the problem. Currently, they seem to be: 1. Modify, with difficulty, a M14 mag untill you can tweak it to work. 2. Same-same with a FAL/FN mag as I've seen indicated as possible. 3. Go with the "frankenmag" approapch where a mag extention is made for the factory mag using a HK G3 mag or FAL/FN mag asthe basis. 4. Come up with a "adapter" for the firearm, as has been discussed/offered here & use slightly modified HK G3 mags. 5. Adapt TWO factory mags into a single hi-cap...probably would have to be less than 20 rounds. 6. Do the modifications to the weapon, ala Krebs, to allow for standard M14 mag use...that was questionably safe. 7. Learn to live with factory mags modified to 10 rounds. 8. Or...what? I think this is a worthwhile area for SERIOUS consideration, as NO other means of addressing it are on the horizon. I'll start by giving you MY TAKE: I think the mags (whatever) should be able to be used in a UNMODIFIED gun...the only exception being the length of, maybe, the mag latch lever. Otherwise, there is too much of a risk of the weapons becoming "one of a kind". Within what is able to be done with the least cost and difficulty...the #3 "frankenmag" seems the most reasonable. I know they can be tweaked for good reliability. That just leaves "ugly" as a problem. #1,2,3,5 & 7 present no problems with interchangable use. I sort of like that -I've done #1,3 & 7. If we could come to some consensus (Ha!) we could have some uniformity with our Saiga weapons. Thoughts? Lollygagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ironhead7544 35 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 I have a 20 gauge mag and it seems to be the same size as the 308. Has anyone combined these two? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 (edited) I've been very successful, and happy , splicing factory 8 rounders together. I have 2 that are made from 2 factory mags that hold 18 rounds apiece with modified follower, basepad and springs. The big one is 3 factory mags spliced together that holds 25 rounds with stock follower and basepad and 27 with a modified follower and basepad. They look good enough that I'm not ashamed to be seen in public with them, they are 100% reliable and very durable. I've done drop tests and have actually tried to break them but they still work. Infact I will be using my 16" .308 with these mags at my IPSC club 3-gun match in two weeks. If that goes well I will be using the same setup at the Texas State 3-gun match next month. I'll provide range reports after the club match and if I use it for the big match will do the same. I made these right after the AWB sunset when I had a stockpile of $20 CDNN factory mags. However at $35 - $40 apiece these days it's not unreasonable to do this now...at least not to me. You tell me...is this such a bad way to go? With the 3 I have I can dump 60 + rounds in well under a minute...wahooo! In the pic below the shorter mag in the 22" .308 wasn't done yet. I use the toughest dark colored epoxy paste I can find at the HW store to make the bands that go around the seams. Almost 2 years now and no failure, I've even left them fully loaded for months at a time and they still work great! Edited April 17, 2006 by AK-treO8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Nice! As big an issue high capacity 308 mags are to Saiga 308 owners, the price of 2 or 3 mags is a wash. No feed issues to worry about either. I was wondering how long it would take someone to do that. Very Nice! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 (edited) Thanks, I likey. Edited April 17, 2006 by AK-treO8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LESchwartz 9 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 (edited) I've been very successful, and happy , splicing factory 8 rounders together. I have 2 that are made from 2 factory mags that hold 18 rounds apiece with modified follower, basepad and springs. The big one is 3 factory mags spliced together that holds 25 rounds with stock follower and basepad and 27 with a modified follower and basepad. They look good enough that I'm not ashamed to be seen in public with them, they are 100% reliable and very durable. I've done drop tests and have actually tried to break them but they still work. Infact I will be using my 16" .308 with these mags at my IPSC club 3-gun match in two weeks. If that goes well I will be using the same setup at the Texas State 3-gun match next month. I'll provide range reports after the club match and if I use it for the big match will do the same. I made these right after the AWB sunset when I had a stockpile of $20 CDNN factory mags. However at $35 - $40 apiece these days it's not unreasonable to do this now...at least not to me. You tell me...is this such a bad way to go? With the 3 I have I can dump 60 + rounds in well under a minute...wahooo! In the pic below the shorter mag in the 22" .308 wasn't done yet. I use the toughest dark colored epoxy paste I can find at the HW store to make the bands that go around the seams. Almost 2 years now and no failure, I've even left them fully loaded for months at a time and they still work great! I wouldn't mind the splicing method, but we're going to need more info before some of us can attempt to duplicate your results. For example: How about posting a close up of the mags? Did you have to modify the follower, basepad or spring? And if so, how? What brands of epoxy paste did you use? And how did you keep the "bands" from looking completly ugly? Larry Edited April 17, 2006 by LESchwartz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 I've been very successful, and happy , splicing factory 8 rounders together. I have 2 that are made from 2 factory mags that hold 18 rounds apiece with modified follower, basepad and springs. The big one is 3 factory mags spliced together that holds 25 rounds with stock follower and basepad and 27 with a modified follower and basepad. Thanks! That is what I really wanted to know -the cap possible with TWO mags put together. So, it's 18 (I had guessed around 17). I can live with that. I like the two mag device better looks-wise than the longer one. Question: What did you glue them together with? Lollygagger (I knew this was a good topic -I'm learning some stuff...cool!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Weld 'em with a soldering iron or plastic welder... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Weld 'em with a soldering iron or plastic welder... Sounds NASTY! A smooth seam ought to be possible...just need to know what glue. Lollygagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 I wouldn't mind the splicing method, but we're going to need more info before some of us can attempt to duplicate you results. For example: How about a close up of the mags? Did you have to modify the follower, basepad and spring? And if so, how? What brands of epoxy paste did you use? And how did you get the "bands" to not look completly ugly? Larry It would seem that the modifications to get the 8 round factory mag to accept 10 rounds would apply here. The follower would have to be trimmed to it's min. functioning length (leaving just a "nub" left to run in the mag body track & provide a "stop"). The "spring guide" above the floor plate would have to get lost, and, the floor plate held in place via some other means...like a short wood screw. The spring is damn STIFF...probably just ONE would function adequately in the somewhat higher cap mag. WE REALLY NEED TO HEAR ABOUT WHAT GLUE WAS USED! L ollygagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 (edited) Weld 'em with a soldering iron or plastic welder... Sounds NASTY! A smooth seam ought to be possible...just need to know what glue. Lollygagger NASTY eh? Edited April 17, 2006 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 NASTY eh? Well...DAMN! That is a "trick" I don't know about. Tell us about it. What type of iron (pencil or gun)? And, how do you avoid making a mess of it -what's the technique? Finish it how? Is it strong? I really want to know. Lollygagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Since you asked...here's a couple tutorials! DIY S-20 - 10 rounders DIY S-20 - 9 rounders and 2 rounders I use a butane fired soldering iron - any will work. They are very strong. I have not had one crack or break yet. No complaints from any buyers either. ...now you know! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) Sorry everybody, I was away from any of the numerous computers I'm constantly surrounded bynormally this afternoon. =========================== Ok, let me clarify a few things. (1) Don't try this if you're worried about messing up about $80 worth of molded plastic that work great as two individual 8 - 10 round mags before you start. (2) I consider myself professional (garage) tinkerer, I think the stuff I come up with generally looks good and functions great, but I'm biased. There are probably better methods that could be employed, if you think of something don't be afraid to point it out. I know I haven't thought of everything. But, I've been using my spliced mags for close to two years very satisfactorily. (3) I use super glue to hold the pieces together initially (shocking!!). I've actually run rounds thru a mag held together with just super glue but I wouldn't trust if for too long. I've used two different epoxies on the 3 different mags that I've spliced together. The last one looks much better than the first couple, but they're all 100% functional/reliable and durable. And the first ones I did are not so bad that I feel I should redo them. ***Note: dinzags soldering method might be a better way to go than glueing. I've never used that technique however. =========================== The tools I use to do this are: - A circular chop saw with a laser guide, mine is a Rigid 10" that cost about $200 at Home Depot, I guess you can use any type of chop saw with a good blade but with the laser guide mine has I can tell EXACTLY where the blade is going to cut. - A good selection of small files - A sharp knife or exacto knife - Good old super glue (to initially hold the pieces together). I prefer the gel type glue, it's not as messy. - PC-7 Heavy Duty Muti-Purpose Epoxy Paste, it's a nice dark steel gray when dry and very tuff and I found it Home Depot. - And lastly, the substance that binds the universe together...Duct tape. Or masking tape, just something to make the channel that you apply the epoxy into so you end up with a nice uniform band around the seam. =========================== Description: The stock mag has a vertical ridge on both sides that houses the grooves inside the mag body that the tabs on the follower ride in, its very important to make these grooves line up pretty much perfectly at the seam between the 2 mag bodies being spliced together so the tabs on the follower can go all the way up and down. There are 10 tear drop shaped horizontal grooves on each side in front of the vertical ridge, there are 11 longer groves on each side behind the ridge. You cut as shown in the first two pics below. On the 18 round mags I've made I can see 9 smaller tear drop shaped grooves on the bottom piece and 8 on the top piece. I use these horizontal grooves and the veritical ridge as a guide. =========================== Cutting: When you start to cut, LESS is better. You can always shave a little more off, but once it's off it's off. ***When I'm cutting I wear a very heavy lether glove on my left hand that I'm holding the piece I'm cutting with. Yes, this is dangerous, if you don't like having your body parts in close proximity to power tools that have the potential for amputating said body parts then DON"T DO THIS. Or, if somebody can think of a better way to get a very clean straight cut without risking fingers then please share...maybe a different type of saw? I'm just using what I have...and it works...and I still have 9...I mean 10 fingers. You have to hold the mag body very tightly when you cut, the blade can move it very easily. I usually end up cutting about 3-5 times, I just shave a little off on each cut. You have to remove the flared bottom of what will be the top piece so that it's flush on all sides with the top of the bottom piece. After each cut I spend a little time cleaning up the cut, removing any curled plastic with a knife or file...or both. Shave a little off of each piece until the two line up nice, use the groves and the ridge on the outside to line them up. The vertical ridge has a slight curve to it...dare I say like a banana . Don't forget about the grooves on the inside for the follower tabs, it's crucial that these line up very nicely. =========================== Follower and basepad There are plenty of posts on doing this. And, once you start destroying perfectly good mags to make hicaps you will have spare followers and basepads to play with. I trim the follower down as well. The tabs on the sides of the follower start off about 1/2" long, I trim the bottom of the follower down so there is about 1/4" of a tab on each side. I also trim the two basepad tabs that start off about 1 1/2" long down to about 3/4" or so. The follower and the basepad cutting is the same as when you make an 8 round mag hold 10 rounds. =========================== Glueing: Once you have both pieces mated together take a break then come back and apply a line of Super Glue gel to one piece and hold the two pieces together for a few minutes, holding them as straight as possible without glueing your fingers to the mag bodies. This isn't easy and takes some fairly intensive finger/hand acrobatics to hold the pieces straight and firm without getting stuck to the pieces. Try to rotate the pieces around so you can make sure all sides are lined up and the GROOVES ON THE INSIDE ARE LINED UP TOO!!! This is probably the most difficult part. Again, if anybody has a better idea for holding the pieces together firmly and straight for about 2 minutes while the glue sets please speak up. Once the Super Glue is dry...good and dry...test the follower. You may have to use a file and smooth out the seam on the inside and you may have to work a little with the grooves the follower tabs go in. You can even assemble the mag and test with ammo to see how many rounds you can now get in it. =========================== Applying Epoxy Paste After I'm happy with the functionality I use tape (duct tape, masking tape, doesn't really matter too much with the epoxy PASTE since it doesn't drip much) to make the channel I apply the epoxy paste into. I just wind the tape around, keeping it straight, and about 1/8" off of the seam on both sides of the seam. Keep winding until the tape is about a 1/16" thick or so. You should end up with a two parallel tape bands on either side of the seam. Next, mix the Epoxy paste per the instructions. I make a nice big dollop, enough to fill in the tape channel level with the tape. After it's mixed use your popsicle stick you mixed the epoxy with and apply it liberally to the seam, using the applicator/popsickle-stick to smooth it out and try not to get it every where. After you have it as smooth and uniform as you can just stand the mag up and leave it for about 30 minutes or an hour. Whatever the Epoxy Paste instructions say the quick set time is. Then remove the tape...CAREFULLY. If you don't remove it before the epoxy is completely set you will have a bear of a time getting it off without damaging the mage body. You just have to be careful to not damage the Epoxy paste band you just made. But, by using paste and not regular epoxy it's fairly easy to work with. Leave it overnight and the next day you should be able to take your new hicap mag to the range for a real test. =========================== That is if you haven't F'ed things up and have nothing but bloody fingers and a pile of useless plastic left over. Trust me it's possible. I havn't screwed one up doing this, but that's not saying I won't the next time I make one. I can make one of these in about 2 hours, not including drying time. Please ask questions, I'm sure there will be a few. And hopefully some recommendations on the process. If you think of something to make a step easier, or have a better idea for splicing these mags together...in your garage...then please post it. The big mag pictured just has a middle part that had the top and bottom cut off. I probably won't make another one of these and really wouldn't recommend it. By combining 2 original mags you should be able to get 17-18 rounds in it. I'll post pics of the last one I made later, it's getting late now, it will have to wait. Edited April 25, 2006 by AK-treO8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Well.... Since the idea of splicing factory mags is on the table, how about organizing a "group buy"? If it could be pulled off, we might be able to get mags at a reasonable price. What say ye? No. That does not mean I'm volounteering to coordinate it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 AK-tre08 - kickass idea using tape to create a dam for the band! Nice! Looks very clean! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Thanks dinzag. Like I've stated, I've been very happy with them since I made the first which was the triple stack. The bands on that one (pictured above) are black because I happened to have a small tube of dye from a Brownell's glass-bed kit when I made it. The other two I've done have dark gray epoxy bands. The pic below is the last one I did using the PC-7 Heavy Duty Muti-Purpose Epoxy Paste. The paste dried with a texture, not smooth like the first couple I did. I'm not sure which looks better, the regular epoxy is initially used was kinda hard to work with because it wanted to run. The paste was much easier to work with so I can live with the tecture. On 4/29/06 I will be using these mags with my 16" .308 in my local IPSC gun club 3-gun match. They will probably be getting dropped on the ground and who know's what else. I'll provide a range report after that either way. I used the big mag with my .308 for one stage at our last 3-gun match just for the hell of it...and loved it. Hopefully using it for a full match will go smooth as well, I don't expect any problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doug01 3 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Lollygagger....or anyone else. How much time is actually involved in the M14/FAL conversion? Can it be done with ordinary tools? Thanks, Doug Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 We thought this guy had it nailed... ========================== QUOTE(Tromix (via email)) Due to unresolvable reliability problems, the project was scrapped. I received an email from Tony, it appears his project is dead . . . Larry ========================== Tony/Tromix does some crazy stuff with Saiga's and other type rifles. If he couldn't get M14 conversions to work reliably I have to wonder if it can be done at all. From what I've seen converting Galil .308 mags looks better, except for the fact that a 25 round Galil .308 mags costs about $90 if you can find one...then you cut and grind it? Cutting and splicing $40 plastic mags that I know will fit and function perfectly is a little easier to stomach for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 How about Testors plastic model cement, for attaching mags together? It's clear, designed for plastics, and can be painted. Just a thought. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Lollygagger....or anyone else. How much time is actually involved in the M14/FALconversion? Can it be done with ordinary tools? Thanks, Doug Tools? Nothing special...you will need access to a welder. Time? Guess that depends on the fella...I've just done my one thus far. I'd guess 4 hours -more time is spent tinkering with it than real hard elbow grease kind of stuff. Lollygager Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I'm sort of surprised that the "frankenmag" does not have some interest... As it is ONLY a EXTENTION and would apparently give you some reliable hi-cap mags, without having to sacrifice the mags...meaning they could be returned to standard use. One or two so set-up should do it for most people. The "frankenmag" in the pic feeds 25 rounds. Not bad for a $3 used HK G3 mag and some dinkering...jus' a little odd looking. Lollygagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 (edited) I have to admit that is pretty intriguing looking, but I bet you'd get some looks at the range with it. However, if I wasn't set for hicaps already I'd probably try that to use at the ranch. I was thinking after the end of next month (May06) if somebody wants to trade me two 8 round mags for one of my 18 round 2 stack mags to try, test, abuse, and report on let me know. If you don't like it I'll trade you back, no sweat. If after an agreed upon time (30 days, 3 months, multiple trips to the range, etc.) and you're happy with it we can make the trade permanent...and then I'll make another one. Tokageko, plastic cement sounds like a good idea. If one of mine ever breaks I'll try that for repair or replacement. Edited April 19, 2006 by AK-treO8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kyrinn 0 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I'm sort of surprised that the "frankenmag" does not have some interest... As it is ONLY a EXTENTION and would apparently give you some reliable hi-cap mags, without having to sacrifice the mags...meaning they could be returned to standard use. One or two so set-up should do it for most people. The "frankenmag" in the pic feeds 25 rounds. Not bad for a $3 used HK G3 mag and some dinkering...jus' a little odd looking. Lollygagger Lollygagger, that is a beautiful weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I agree. That is just about as evil looking as I've seen an unconverted Saiga .308 look. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lollygagger 1 Posted April 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Thanks. EVIL is GOOD! Lollygagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan762 0 Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 I was wondering when someone would weld/glue two factory mags together. I guy used to do this with the (then cheap) German AK-74 bakelite mags and create 45 rounders. They worked good. His name I think, was Hi-Cap. Anyway, Im wondering if you could make a mold of the factory mag and then pull a fiberglass shell from it. You could lay some stell rod or metal strips for strength also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimmbswu 0 Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Lolly, Is that frankenmag with a plastic G3 mag? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
44rdv4rk 0 Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 (edited) ETA: oh ya, that's your thread over there, lollygagger, i'm such a noob... should have noticed that sooner but the close-ups over there really helped clear up the process in my mind! __________________________________________ here's a link with some close up pictures of the modded m14 mags, it really looks promising to me. http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=825 i might have to try it, assuming that a preban mag is still a preban mag if you mess with it. *grumble*NY*grumble* Edited April 24, 2006 by 44rdv4rk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monomonk 0 Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 I just came up with an alternative to the production of hi-caps which have been described. First you start with a standard eight round factory mag for the Saiga .308. You load it and two others with eight rounds each. Then insert the first mag into the rifle and fire eight rounds. Next remove that mag and then put in another and fire another eight rounds. Finally replace the second mag with the third and fire its rounds. Voila, you have fired 24 rounds, you have not done any special work, and you still have three factory mags in pristine condition. I think this could work. (Just joking, guys, don't send me any death threats.) Monomonk who always wants hi-caps for everything Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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