saiga chamber question

[callahan318 0]

I have to ask, is the saiga .223 chamber really a .223 chamber, or will the weapon accept 5.56 rounds? I know that the two are not the same, but that a .223 can be used in a 5.56, but not the other way around due to problems with pressure being higher.

[ArcFault 4]

The receiver and mag are stamped .223 Rem, so its a safe bet that the chamber is .223 Rem.

 

I for one have fired both and suspect that the pressure difference isnt an issue with a Saiga. The chamber dimension is slightly different though I think, which basically just means that if you are reloading you need the Rem die, not Nato.

 

I admit that I am no expert so if someone can clarify this, please do.

 

also, search around, I know this has come up before.

[Bad Bob 0]

I have never heard of any problem (let alone a dangerous problem) using 5.56 ammo in a .223 chamber. Obviously, 'buyer beware, your mileage may vary, I may be deaf-dumb-and-stupid, etc.' But I've never even heard of a problem with using 7.62 NATO ammo in a .308 chamber, and IIRC, the differences are greater than those between the 5.56 & .223.

 

FWIW, I'm currently using 5.56 NATO ammo in my .223 Saiga, and have not had a single failure to extract or failure to eject (let alone split cases, etc.). Because the country appears to be ruled by rabid lawyers, however, I will not suggest that anyone else, any where, at any time, consider what I have posted to be a recommendation of any sort, or any kind of recommendation or certification regarding safety.

 

;>)

[Denali 0]

I also use 5.56 ammo (M855 British). I've never had any problems.

[ssullivan777 0]

I heard it was something to do with the primer fouling something out???? I don't know, just what I heard.

[Guntoter 0]

This issue has probably caused more confusion than just about any other gun related topic. Here's a good place to start for an explanation of the differences between .223 Rem/5.56mm :

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

 

There are a number of links in that article that will take you to more in depth explanations if you so desire.

 

One of the reasons I prefer not to reload for gas operated weapons. Most people seem to either not know or not grasp the fact that regardless of where the designer chose to tap the barrel for gas bleed, it was engineered for a specific pressure at that point. Changing components can cause the pressure peak at the gas bleed to be much higher than the weapon was designed for. Too low pressure will probably only cause cycling problems but too high can cause excessive wear or damage to the weapon and could even cause a kaboom. This won't always be apparent after shooting a few rounds. It may take hundreds of rounds before the damage shows up and when it does it could be catastrophic.

 

I will happily shoot my own handloads through my Savage varmint rifle but when I shoot my AR or other military type semi-auto I stick with mil-spec factory ammo. I haven't got around to shooting my new Saiga yet but I hope it has a mil-spec 5.56 chamber rather than .223. If it does have the short .223 throat that would really suck.

[wlchase 0]

Izhmash calls it a "5.56, chambered in .223 REM (5.56x45)" if that helps.

 

Bill

[longhunter-CO 0]

I have to ask, is the saiga .223 chamber really a .223 chamber, or will the weapon accept 5.56 rounds? I know that the two are not the same, but that a .223 can be used in a 5.56, but not the other way around due to problems with pressure being higher.

 

Guys guys guys. Of course there are not anyproblems...its an AK.

[vjor 2]

Edited February 17, 2007 by vjor

[Red Jacket 329]

on a Saiga .223 converted to full auto , the cyclic rate is about a 1/3 higher with 5.56 , it feels like you're beating the gun to death . empties bounce back of the side wall of the range . In my opinion , the rifle is designed for the cartridge they make for it . the steel cased .223 . I don't recommend shooting 5.56 out of Saiga's .

[vjor 2]

on a Saiga .223 converted to full auto , the cyclic rate is about a 1/3 higher with 5.56 , it feels like you're beating the gun to death . empties bounce back of the side wall of the range . In my opinion , the rifle is designed for the cartridge they make for it . the steel cased .223 . I don't recommend shooting 5.56 out of Saiga's .

 

Thanks Bro, there goes another theory down the drain, and true comes out to light in a way.

[Red Jacket 329]

I have .223 Saiga's just so I CAN run the Wolf ammo along with the American and American Eagle ,Win. white box , all the commercial ,cheap .223 thats out there that doesn't work well in my M16's , it's a very good shooting , pleasant round . On a side note , K-Var sell's a true 5.56 barrel and a 5.56 trunnion . I've used them on many builds for guys that want the 5.56 .

[GonzoX 0]

I have to ask, is the saiga .223 chamber really a .223 chamber, or will the weapon accept 5.56 rounds? I know that the two are not the same, but that a .223 can be used in a 5.56, but not the other way around due to problems with pressure being higher.

 

Guys guys guys. Of course there are not anyproblems...its an AK.

 

Exactly! 5.56 is externally identical to 223. It just has higher pressure and maybe thicker brass to handle the higher pressure etc.

 

Consider that the AK is designed to handle both the Russian equivalent of 223 (5.45x39mm) and also the older 7.62x39, it's pretty safe to say that you are good to go.

 

...it's an AK.

[Guntoter 0]

Well, out of curiosity (and a little concern) I emailed RAAC to see if I could get their take on it. Here's what I received back:

 

 

HI KEVIN,

 

 

 

THAK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST IN OUR PRODUCTS. THE 223 WILL SHOOT EITHER COMMERCIAL AMMO OR THE MILITARY STYLE AMMO. THAT IS THE ANSWER THAT I GET FROM THE FACTORY. THE TWIST RATE FOR THE 223 IS 1/10.

 

 

 

CLYDE WOODS

 

SALES & MARKETING

 

RUSSIAN AMERICAN ARMORY COMPANY

 

Now, I don't know if that could be considered the final word or not since it doesn't state SPECIFICALLY that 5.56 NATO is ok. It says "MILITARY STYLE" ammo. It appears he forwarded the question to someone at IZHMASH and this was the answer he received back. I guess it depends on their conception of what constitutes "military ammo". I would think that most Russian weapon engineers would be familiar with the 5.56x45 but you never know. If they approached it as a "foreign" round and consulted SAAMI specs it could actually be a .223 chambering. My understanding is that there is no SAAMI spec for the NATO round.

I wish the answer had been more definitive but, there it is!

 

I suspect Vjor's initial suspicions are probably accurate for several reasons, one being that most European countries had or still have restrictions on civilian ownership of weapons chambered in the same caliber used by police and military. Even knowing it isn't true (yet!) in the U.S. the perception might be that it just would look better if it was labeled .223 rather than 5.56mm. Kind of a CYA move on their part.

 

Red Jacket, I have no question what you have experienced is accurate. I wonder if the increase in cyclic rate could be due not only to the higher pressure in the NATO rounds but also to the recoil spring rate used. I have noticed that European semi-autos (no experience with full-auto) seem to be almost universally under sprung whether rifle or pistol. This is so pervasive that I personally believe this is "engineered" into weapons as a reliability measure. I believe this is done to give the best chance of cycling should a shooter encounter a weak or underpowered round with the theory being reliability is worth the increased wear. Considering the length of time East Bloc countries are known to store ammo before surplussing it out this makes sense to me. I admit though that it's just a pet theory of mine and I could be just stone stupid.

Guntoter

 

[Red Jacket 329]

Hey Guntoter , what it think is that , weather the preasures high because it's a 5.56 and simply a higher pressure round or because it's a 5.56 shoved into a .223 chamber , which will induce higher preasures doesn't matter . As you noted , there's more to the thing then the chamber size . gasport size matters as well and I think the gasport on the .223 is as small as you can reasonably get on a production line . Running SS109's was like hitting a aftermarket turbo stuck on a car engine , and like that , I don't think it was going to blow immediatly or even shortly . But I do think it was overworking it . On a related note , I'll shortly be building a subgun AK on a new barrel chambered in 5.56 , using the same size gasport as the Saiga. Curiosity overwelms ..... I'll post pic's and notes . Will

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

5.56mm NATO has higher pressures due to thicker brass. Shooting .223 in a rifle chambered for "true" 5.56 x 45mm NATO is Generally regarded as safe as they were designed for slight higher pressures 62,366 PSI as compared to .223 Remington of 55,000. When reloading military brass, consider the smaller size of the powder chamber. It will increase pressures quicker than the .233 Remington. In other words, it would be unwise to just load .223 hand-load indiscriminately mixed with .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO spend brass (military). Since each firearm has differences in handling pressures, each group of brass, .223, and 5.56 should be loaded independently, and check for excessive pressure such as severe flattening of the primer and gas blow by on the primer. However, keep in mind the Saiga seems to "crimp" the primer upon firing and may not show the gas blow by on the primer to the extent a bolt action rifle would.

 

Hand-load in moderation and start low and work up. Choose best groups, not best velocity. Heavier bullets also increase pressures over the lighter bullets.

[Gocasen 0]

Has anyone confirmed if the Saiga 223 is actually chambered for the 5.56? I can't seem to find a definitive answer, and this thread is the closest I have come to the answer.

[The Sarge 34]

Many moons ago I took my Hornady OAL with a modified .223 case and comparator gauges and measured the Saiga ".223" for grins. Folks it is EXACTLY a 5.56 throat. No doubt. It is EXACTLY a NATO 5.56 throat in your Saiga ".223". Our Saiga 5.56 (.223) have a long leade (.120) versus the SAMMI short leade (.040). Leade is the distance the bullet must travel before it hits the rifling upon ignition.

The pressure delta's everybody is talking about comes from the .223 short leade. When you have a machined 5.56 leade you dont get the pressure spikes associated with running a 5.56 round in a short leade rifle.

 

Absolutely and without any inkling of doubt...the Saiga is machined as 5.56mm carbine. Period.

[Gocasen 0]

Many moons ago I took my Hornady OAL with a modified .223 case and comparator gauges and measured the Saiga ".223" for grins. Folks it is EXACTLY a 5.56 throat. No doubt. It is EXACTLY a NATO 5.56 throat in your Saiga ".223". Our Saiga 5.56 (.223) have a long leade (.120) versus the SAMMI short leade (.040). Leade is the distance the bullet must travel before it hits the rifling upon ignition.

The pressure delta's everybody is talking about comes from the .223 short leade. When you have a machined 5.56 leade you dont get the pressure spikes associated with running a 5.56 round in a short leade rifle.

 

Absolutely and without any inkling of doubt...the Saiga is machined as 5.56mm carbine. Period.

 

Excellent thank you for checking for that.

[The Sarge 34]

Speaking to the difference in "felt recoil"...take your bullet puller and empty a .223 and do the same for the 5.56mm round.

 

Measure the powder. 5.56 has more by volume. Faster FPS and delivered energy.

 

Then go to any half ass reputable reloaders guide or forum. You will quickly learn 5.56mm utilizes a slower burning powder. And more of it.

 

Add the two facts above up = more felt recoil. Not necessarily more barrel pressure when measured in C.U.P.

 

I see one gentleman in this thread has failed to observe any pressure signs shooting 5.56mm in his Saiga. Of course not.....he is shooting exactly what his Saiga was designed to shoot.

 

I will also tell you reloaders (and you probably already know this) to lengthen your OAL (from the Ogive) and your Saiga will suddenly become much more accurate. I park mine off about .025. Night and day difference in accuracy. In 5.56mm the Lake City stuff is very good.