kbbeckius 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 (edited) This will be quite long and have lots of pics so bear with me. Convert your Saiga 12 without modifying the reciever or relocating the trigger group using ACE parts. (sect 922 applies, us parts count) Parts Required ACE receiver adapter $35 ACE stock $64.95 TAPCO FAL SAW style grip $19.99 (on sale now for $11.99) 5" section of 1/4"x28 NF all thread $2 1/4"x28 NF nut $0.20 1/4" washer $0.20 Optional parts ACE Cheekrest $8.00 ACE folding stock mechanism $59.95 TAPCO metric style grip nut $9.99 (replaces nut and washer above) Tools Needed File Drill (access to drill press and vise would be very helpful) tap wrench 1/4x28 NF tap 10x32 NF tap #3 drill bit #21 drill bit 11/64" or 3/16" drill bit (optional) Dremel tool (optional) The Procedure What I did was use the ACE adapter as a mount for the pistol grip, simple enough:) remove the existing stock insert reciever adapter may need to tap it in with hammer and pry it out material needs to be removed for adequate clearance of rear trigger guard rivet when you remove the adapter you can see where you'll need to clearance it, make a dimple with a drill bit or a channel with the Dremel Make sure adapter can be inserted without too much force, it will be snug still mark center of hole where the buttstock used to attach on bottom and use the #3 drill and tap for 10x32 NF hole, ACE provided me with extra screws so you can use one of those or you may have to pick up a countersunk screw Although not necessary, I drilled the receiver so I could use the holes tapped in the sides of the receiver adapter, slide the adapter part way in to determine the location and use the 11/64" or 3/16" drill bit for the holes. I wanted the adapter held as securely as possible to the receiver. Now for the tricky part the PISTOL GRIP STUD I made a template from my FAL rifle to get the proper angle of the stud the PG stud is angled back 80 degrees this is where having access to a drill press and vise would be helpful although with patience I imagine it could be done by hand mark a point 7/8" back from "lip" where adapter steps up from where it goes into reciever, this is the aproximate location of the PG stud, you will probably want to check for yourself as to the best location on your gun, put the adapter in the receiver and put the grip where it should go, and use a drill bit down the hole to make a slight mark, I don't think it has to be perfect, like I said on mine the setback is 7/8" once you have determined the location of the hole, it must be drilled with the #21 bit slanting to the back of the firearm 10 degrees from vertical try to keep your drilling centered so your stud doesn't end up angled side to side, you just want it angled back!! Tap the hole with the 1/4x28 NF tap, TAKE YOUR TIME go slow and back it out often to clean out chips, keep it oiled the aluminum will gall up easily and you won't have sufficient threads. after tapping, apply locktite (or JB weld if the threads are loose) to the section of all thread and screw it in, you may want to pick up another 1/4x28 nut and jam them together to help screw in the stud slide the PG over the stud time to fit the PG, file the grip to clear the "step" between the receiver and adapter remove some material from the rear of the grip so it doesn't hang over the adapter once you are satisfied with the fit, trim the stud so that 1/2" protrudes through the hole down inside the grip install PG with nut, or nut and washer. Assemble stock to adapter, or stock to folding mechanism then to adapter. DONE Like I said in my other post, this is a work in process, I plan on doing something different for sights eventually, a muzzle break, etc... As far as the front end and charging handle I filled in the checkering on the sides with epoxy, and used a drill, Dremel, and file to make the slots, and then covered it with Duplicolor spray can truck bedliner (looks good, and has a real grip to it) the charging knob is from an Israeli Galil, I cut the stock "lever" down so the Galil know would fit and welded it on. Thx All, and Good luck!! Brad PS: I used a modified G2 single hook trigger group set to get the parts count up. Edited September 14, 2004 by kbbeckius Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kbbeckius 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Whaddya all think??? Thx Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 I've got a buddy that wanted to do that very same thing! What about parts count? I'm thinking you have two (grip, stock) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fowlplay 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 where did you find all these parts? I am interested Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Awesome job , Brad ! I will start to do the same thing to my foregrip..... will post pics Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sleepnosis 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Those are some really interesting modifications. Both the grip and the hand guard look GREAT. Maybe you've just marketed your own product. Once again, Awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kbbeckius 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 All the parts for the buttstock conversion I were purchased from Tapco http://www.tapco.com/ ACE http://www.aceltdusa.com/ the remaining parts/tools can be picked up at hardware stores As for the forend, all parts purchased at Wal mart Application of the duplicolor spray on bedliner can be a little tricky, parts MUST be roughed up (sanded over the whole exterior surface) and wiped clean with laquer thinner (or other residue free solvent). The texture of the finshed bedliner is dependant on how far away you hold the can from what you're spraying, closer=smoother, farther away=rougher. For more info about the bedliner used on furniture search here http://www.falfiles.com/forums/index.php thx Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 kbbeckius- EXCELLENT! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 (edited) Hey dude, make em as kits so they just "Bolt on" and replace the normal stock, Name a price and ill see if i can pay it. And is that aluminum block sturdy enough to handel 12gauge? Because if it was only used on a fal(almost no recoil) thats like taking a part rated for light duty then trying to pull a semi up a hill with it. Edited September 15, 2004 by Mephis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I emailed ACE telling them that a lot of people were interested in buying something like their Remington 870 "adaptor plus pistol grip" but with an AK adaptor instead of a remington one. I told him there were a ton of sporterized Saiga AK clones in this country who were eager to do this mod. I also gave them a link to this page. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kbbeckius 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 (edited) I've tested it with probably 30+ rounds of the baddest stuff I can find (I'm sure there is worse) Federal's F131RS, 3", 1 1/4 OZ Slugs!! (use a recoil buffer with this stuff!!) I think that's my favorite f**k s**t up round!!! nothin' like 3/4" holes at 3000+ ft/lbs of muzzle energy. I often buy cheap soda pop in cans as reactive targets, and I managed to (only once out of a full 5rd mag) hit one dead on at 75 yards with the scope on, TOTALLY disinigrated the can, little aluminum bits fluttering down after the blast!!! it was awesome!! I managed to find the base of the can and it looked like someone hammered it flat!! (without the hammer marks, of course) A .308 or .45 round won't do that! (a S&W .500 round probably would though) It has to do with transferrence of energy and a factor called hydra-shock, big blunt bullets/slugs transfer mucho energy, real quick! So for so good as far as reliability!! I admit I only have made a few shots with the stock folded, those 1 1/4 ounce slugs REALLY hurt your wrist after about the second shot!! (kinda hard to hit stuff like that with the slugs, that's what buckshot is for anyway!) I also used hardened all thread for the stud in the project. Although I'm not sure if it matters, hardened steel is more likely to break, where as mild steel will bend. I imagine the weak point would be the threads that hold the stud, but I used loctite and the stud is still in there tight. The load is distributed to the entire area where the PG contacts the receiver adapter/firearm, so it's not like the stud is absorbing all the recoil Thx Brad PS: the ACE receiver adapter is for an AK, the pistol grip was for a FAL. PSS: If ACE would machine and tap 2 holes and cut a groove in their receiver adapter, this would be a "bolt on". I actually got the idea from those adapters for the remington!! (not ACE's ones, but I saw some at a gun show and thought hmmm.... if only they made these for the Saiga, so I made it!!) Just glad ACE's adapters are the way they are. Made my job easy!! Edited September 15, 2004 by kbbeckius Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kbbeckius 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 (edited) I have received several requests, but I don't plan on making these or selling a kit. I believe the instructions are good enough that you could do this yourself or take the reciever adapter to a local machine shop and have them do it for you. The reciever adapter costs 35$, I wouldn't think drilling and tapping 2 holes and cutting a slot would cost too much, 50$??? depending on the shops hourly rate. If you really want I will modify your ACE reciever adapter like mine above, holes drilled and tapped, rivet clearance slot, and stud installed for 100$, if you want to message me and make arrangements to send me your adapter, we'll see. I really don't have the time to do it, and I won't guarantee my work. I'm not a machinist, and don't really know how much abuse the conversion will take, I would rather the receiver adapter be made of steel than aluminum. I just wanted to show an easier way (in my opinion) of adding a pistol grip to the Saiga Thx Brad PS: this should work on all Saiga firearms, not just the 12ga Edited September 15, 2004 by kbbeckius Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I like the truck bedliner idea.....how well does that stuff hold up to heat? I tend to put a LOT of rounds out in a session, and believe me, you can cook on my barrel when im done. I would hate to have some of that stuff melt onto my barrel and have to smell it every time I go shooting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 If that stuff can hold up to being in 120 degreee weather and the sun beating down on it all day long, Im sure it can handel a little barrel heat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 i can fry eggs on my barrels after a normal session of shooting though. I need to patch a spot on my bedliner on my truck anyway, so ill just get some and see if I can approximate the temp of my barrel with a torch and a metal pipe and just lay that on a piece of wood with some bedliner on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 damn, the ingenuity of americans is amazing! great info and really really good pics!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
racerman 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 (edited) Hey has anyone else seen this ak-47 forgrip? If so will it work? I really love the mods but would like to add the assy rail. So that I could add the grip, Tac light,sling and Tac laser for up close and personal work. While still using the stock scope mount. There is so much stuff for the rail sys. '1 Stop Tactical Gear' http://1stoptacticalgear.com/products.asp?cat=21&offset=0 JoeKen Firearms, Inc. http://207.176.137.9/shop/shopdisplayprodu...Accessories+165 Edited September 21, 2004 by racerman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 That grip does work for regular AKs, my friend put it on his Romanian and it fits tight. He got his from Blackjack at www.blackjackbuffers.com His are cheaper than the links you posted and come in differnt colors. I wouldn't even try to put it on a Saiga. Instead, I would suggest you buy the rails seperate and mount them directl to the plastic saiga handguard. I did so on my S-12, worked perfectly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siagalova 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hey, if it functions well - somebody post this up permenant! for all those guys too afraid to do the mods. (I'm just razzin, I'm not pissin' on anybodies parade - it looks KILLER) NICE FRIGGIN JOB! it seems to be the biggest question/concern!!!!!!! it's short US parts, but anybody can fix that! If I would've had the idea, I would've done it that way myself - coolest non-trigger move conv. yet! a very cool conversion period. I'm sending the 7.62X39 guys this way right now! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 That tac forend is a TDI. Good stuff made in Israel. I am toying with adapting it to the Saiga. I believe it is possoble by trimming the receiver insert at the rear, and by modifying a standard forend retainer. How to fasten the upper forens guard is a bit more challenging, but not impossible. I believe it would make for a very interesting Siaga. The gas valve presents a problem in that if it wasn't there, you could simply attach a standard FSB in front of it, much like the Saiga 12 SWAT, which has discontinued the valve. Probably because they don't plan on using 3" magnums in it. Actually, they arent all that useful--and they are unnecessarily brutal to shoot. Also, after all that work, I will still have another foreign part on the gun. Even though my parts count can stand it, idf I went through all that trouble, I would feel better if I had anotther US part on the gun. Which leads me to another important point. . .I only put this here because other guys might want to try the mods in this thread. I am confident that kbbeckius has found or mfgd a US mfg bolt, carrier, and gas piston, because one of the reasons that the FCG gets swapped out with the standard AK config in these PG conversions is not only because the "sport" trigger linkage that the gun is imported with mushy and pretty undesireable, if not useless, in tactical competition, and not just because the standard AK trigger position is more comfortable and well placed by design for balance and feel, but also because the Russian FCG MUST to go the comply with the 10 foreign parts limitation set forth in the Senoir Bush's mil-rifle import ban--which is a felony. So, for anyone thinking of this mod, get the parts first, I'm sure that kbbeckius just forgot to mention it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TEXASAK73 13 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 I'm very impressed with the work nice job, I had a similar idea to use an ACE adapter, but you beat me to it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kbbeckius 0 Posted September 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 For a link to the ATF letter regarding parts count, click here http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html Out of 14 total parts, you can have no more than 10 foreign made parts. I complied with the law as follows.... US Stock US Pistol Grip US Hammer (modified) US Sear (disconnector) You can also convert a single hook trigger to replace the secondary trigger linkage piece by cutting the trigger off the bottom of it. I also did this but don't know if it counts towards compliance, maybe you could consider it the sear, and the other the disconnector. On the EAA diagram these parts are called the "Trigger Mechanism" even though they also list a "trigger". Who knows? Thx Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sbhtral 0 Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 For a link to the ATF letter regarding parts count, click herehttp://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html Out of 14 total parts, you can have no more than 10 foreign made parts. I complied with the law as follows.... US Stock US Pistol Grip US Hammer (modified) US Sear (disconnector) Look again - the ATF letter does not list the pistol grip as part of an SA-12, just the butt stock Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 (edited) sbhtral, look again-in the ATF letter, the pistol grip isn't counted because the Saigas don't have a pistol grip when they are imported. Read the foot notes on the "tables" below the letter, they count the pistol grip in the tables, since they are showing the total parts count AFTER the conversion is done and that is why it shows 14 parts instead of the original 13 in the letter. AKATTACK Edited September 25, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sbhtral 0 Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Humm - You don't think the ATF will say that is an accessory and not a part that was changed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sbhtral 0 Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 OK -I counted - 13 'parts' per the ATF on the SA12 as it arrived in US. He replaced/modified 3 parts and added a 4th that was US made. Yep, the math works. On the otherhand, if somebody started making those magazines in the US, the math would still work for a stock SA-12. The ATF counts the 3 parts of the detatchable magazine (magazine body, followers, floorplate) as parts of the gun. Therefore, a US made magazine would drop the number of foreign made parts to 10. I think I got some of this right... sbhtral Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 For a link to the ATF letter regarding parts count, click herehttp://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html Out of 14 total parts, you can have no more than 10 foreign made parts. I complied with the law as follows.... US Stock US Pistol Grip US Hammer (modified) US Sear (disconnector) Look again - the ATF letter does not list the pistol grip as part of an SA-12, just the butt stock I agree the PG would be ADDING a US part as opposed to SUBTRACTING a foreign part, which is the name of the game. But, if he has swapped out the stock, hammer and sear for US parts, then he should be good to go if 13 is the magic number. It seems that according to the "Cheif of Firearms Technology" at the good old BATFE that 13 is, so all seems well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave_A 0 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 (edited) The 'magic number' is 10 foreign parts.... Adding US parts never creates a problem, so long as there are 10 or less foreign parts on the gun... Edited September 29, 2004 by Dave_A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 The 'magic number' is 10 foreign parts.... Adding US parts never creates a problem, so long as there are 10 or less foreign parts on the gun... Yes, that's what I was saying. But, it's the MISCONCEPTION held by many that adding US parts somehow overcomes existing or added foreign parts that causes problems. For example, many people know that 5 US parts on a standard AK generally makes it parts-count legal. So, some people think that if five parts are good six is better. They think that they can add a foreign muzzle brake if they add another US part, I guess to neutralize it, or something like that. I have seen this time and again in forum posts. So, adding US parts can be a big problem depending on why the person is doing it. That's what I meant by "SUBTRACTING foreign parts is the name of the game." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cajun 0 Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 I really like your PG conversion with no mods to the firearm. Great job on your Saiga 12. I'm planning on picking up another Saiga 12 next weekend, and doing a very similar conversion. Thanks for posting the info. Cajun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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