AA-12, automatic assault 12ga.

[MikeD 541]

I spoke with Mid-American Recreation Inc. (the makers of the AA-12) I was calling them to see what the price of an aa-12 was because I was wanting to get a dealer sample. He said that they are $3800.00. He also said that the owner didn't offer sales to anyone other than police/military or linked organization's. He said that the most of there shotguns are going to companies that are adapting them to robot helicopters, planes, and ground runners. I asked him if the Marines' was planning on buying them (like I have heard a few places) and he said he hadn't heard anything about it. I really wanted to get a sample but guess it isn't an option at this time. Maybe if I talked to the owner himself something can be worked out.

 

And here is what is really exciting. He said that they are CONSIDERING producing a semi-auto version for the civilian market. That would be the cats ass. Then you could convert it yourself if you had the licences. Maybe if a lot of people told them they would like to see a civilian version it would make their minds up! It sure is one sweet weapon!

[BobAsh 582]

Interesting news.

 

Funny name for a gun manufacturer, though.

[MikeD 541]

Interesting news.

 

Funny name for a gun manufacturer, though.

I thought thesame thing. When I looked at their site I was also suprised that the AA-12 was the only military style weapon they have. From the best I can tell, the only other thing they make are clones of the schuetzen rifles originally by Stevens Arms Co. and they claim this is what they specialize in. I think the AA-12 would be my specialty!

[Twinsen 86]

Must serve big brother.

[RDSWriter 5]

Mike... I like you idea of letting them know demand. But, I don't know if I could honestly tell them I was interested because of the price. I mean for $3800... I could buy 2 Tromix conversions and enough drums and mags to drown in.

[MikeD 541]

Mike... I like you idea of letting them know demand. But, I don't know if I could honestly tell them I was interested because of the price. I mean for $3800... I could buy 2 Tromix conversions and enough drums and mags to drown in.

You are right, that is a very steap price. But it is a very advanced weapon. I don't know what extra mags or drums cost for it, I didn't ask but wished I would of. I suspect the semi version is just talk and doubt it would become available even with a big response from us. I just really want one bad. I was planning on it being my first dealer sample when I get my Class 3. But the don't sell to anybody but police or military, or someone designing something for them. I guess in order to get one I'm gonna have to build a turrent system or some type of something to attach it to. There is a way to get or do just about anything if you have the determination. And I want one bad!!!!!!!!!

[RDSWriter 5]

FYI - I thought I remembered this weapon firing from an open bolt. Sure enough... it does!

 

So if they ever plan on a semiauto, they'll have to redesign the bolt and FCG to fire from a closed bolt as all (new) open bolt guns are now considered MGs under BATFE guidelines. Not that complicated, but more than just changing a disconnector, trigger and removing an auto sear.

Edited August 7, 2007 by RDSWriter

[mccumber1916 1]

FYI - I thought I remembered this weapon firing from an open bolt. Sure enough... it does!

 

So if they ever plan on a semiauto, they'll have to redesign the bolt and FCG to fire from a closed bolt as all (new) open bolt guns are now considered MGs under BATFE guidelines. Not that complicated, but more than just changing a disconnector, trigger and removing an auto sear.

 

can you explain "open bolt" for me please

[RDSWriter 5]

FYI - I thought I remembered this weapon firing from an open bolt. Sure enough... it does!

 

So if they ever plan on a semiauto, they'll have to redesign the bolt and FCG to fire from a closed bolt as all (new) open bolt guns are now considered MGs under BATFE guidelines. Not that complicated, but more than just changing a disconnector, trigger and removing an auto sear.

 

can you explain "open bolt" for me please

 

Very simple...

 

Closed bolt is like an AK/AR/FAL/1022 etc. The bolt strips a round from the magazine loads it in the chamber and waits for you to pull the trigger to fire the round. Hence the bolt is closed prior to the trigger release action. Typically these firearms have a trigger, disconnector, sear, hammer and firing pin.

 

Open bolt is like the original design of the UZI/Thompson/STEN/MAC/1919/Bren etc. The bolt is held open with the chamber exposed until the trigger is pulled. Once pulled, the bolt releases which strips a round out of the magazine, loads the round into the chamber and then fires the round. These firearms may or may not have a hammer or firing pin depending on the design.

 

The ATF changed their position on open bolt guns back in '81 because they construed all open bolt designs to be 'readily' convertible to an MG. Therefore, all new open bolt designs/production are considered MGs now - even if they don't fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger. Price an old pre-81 open bolt MAC; you'll see a big price difference to the new ones because - like MGs - they can't be made anymore for civilian purchase.

 

I can attest to the 'likeability' of a heavy machinegun in open bolt. No mattter how hot the barrel gets you won't get a fullauto cookoff (mag dump as a result of powder detonation round after round after round) because once you release the trigger it stops firing without a round in the chamber. This benefit is really not necessarily unless you plan on dumping a lot of ammo... which is atypical of most smgs and light machineguns. In addition, you typically lose accuracy and raise the potential for other debris to enter the receiver and obstrcut the chamber area with open bolt guns.

Edited August 7, 2007 by RDSWriter

[mccumber1916 1]

thanks... now i understand some old forgotten questions too

[MikeD 541]

The ccok off reason is why they went with the open bolt on the aa-12. Also most shells have a plastic hull which won't go well sitting in a hot chamber. The debris issue is a minus. They should have designed a dust cover that is closed while the bolt is open. It doesn't sem like it would be that hard to do. Have the bolt open it has it is pulling the hull out of the chamber and re close after the bolt locks back.

[mccumber1916 1]

The ccok off reason is why they went with the open bolt on the aa-12. Also most shells have a plastic hull which won't go well sitting in a hot chamber. The debris issue is a minus. They should have designed a dust cover that is closed while the bolt is open. It doesn't sem like it would be that hard to do. Have the bolt open it has it is pulling the hull out of the chamber and re close after the bolt locks back.

 

 

dustcover does seam like a good idea

sorta the opposite of the ak design?

hell.. even a manual one like ra's would be worthwhile

[BattleRifleG3 16]

If that thing is open bolt, that price tag is way too high for any significant quantities of production. I don't see how it serves any purpose better than a drum fed S-12.

 

The whole cookoff thing shouldn't be an issue in a detachable mag shotgun due to its capacity. Cookoff or just shell deformation is what you run into spewing 30rd after 30rd mag or firing belts. 10 or 20rd mags of shotgun shells that take as long to load as the AA-12 or Saiga, with the reduced velocity of shotgun shells (which relates somewhat to the heat produced), just can't be fired that fast.

 

If someone wants shotgun firepower greater than the highly reliable and versatile Saiga, a LMG or even a HMG fed by a belt or hopper is the way to go.

 

I have a hard time believing a Saiga couldn't be accessorized or modified to match all the real life benefits of the AA-12. If boreline is an issue, raised buttstock and sites should solve that. If it has lower felf recoil than an S-12, throw on some weight and/or some advanced recoil absorbing butt devices.

 

I have a feeling that if an LE dept wanted to compare the AA-12 to the S-12 and gave Tromix the same budget, he could beat the AA in every way and have the change left to take the whole department out to dinner.

[usamark 1]

The AA12 is meant to be a 'recoiless' 12ga full auto platform. The operating system is similar to the STK Ultimax 100 where the bolt & carrier don't bottom out during recoil. The recoil system is setup to stop and return the bolt & carrier without bumping into a physical stop. During full auto fire, the AA12 is surprisingly steady...as is the U100. The cost of this is that the recoil system is pretty long.

 

There isn't a good way to get the S12 to mimic the recoil just because it's set up differently. Along the same lines, the open bolt characteristic isn't so good for semi auto where the object is to hit something with the first shot. The bolt slamming forward, chambering a round and firing it, while trying to stay on point of aim isn't the best setup...the S12 is better because it only needs to drop the hammer to fire.

 

Other than 'looking cool', all you'll get with the AA12 is a big drum. Semi auto fire makes the AA12 recoil system sort of useless.

 

Be aware that this drivel is worth what you paid for it.

[ironhead7544 35]

The reason they made the open bolt guns illegal is that you can make them fire full auto without modifying the gun.

[dayanx 1]

the price doesnt surprise me as it is made from 7 types of quality steel, which adds the weight to dampen automatic fire but is rather heavy for a semi auto only IMO. I'd rather have an S-12 with a few kinds of recoil damping- maybe some reduced recoil ammo

[MikeD 541]

Found out some very interesting stuff today. I was at the Bill Goodman Gun show today and was speaking to a regular there. His name is Bob Bond. He used to run around with Max Atchisson. Max Atchisson is the designer of the AA-12 and the USAS-12. He told me of all kinds of stuff that Max made. What I found to be the most interesting is back in the 70's Max designed the AA-12 and most of his stuff in a shop that is less than a 1 mile from the house I grew up in. In Northridge of Harrison Township connecting to the northside of Dayton. Most people consider Northridge to be Dayton and we do have a Dayton mailing address. He said that max made a M1 style .308 that had the same constant recoil system. He said Max would show people the rifle by putting the buttstock against his chin and firing it. He was showing it to the Israelis and they was loving it until Max told Bob to shoot his M-60 at the same targets. Bob said he told him he was crazy and it wasn't a good idea but Max insisted. Bob said that after he did all interest was off for the rifle. He was also showing them a full-auto .22lr upper for the m-16. Bob said the upper functioned great on every kind of ammo except for a specific low velocity ammo (forget the brand) and that is all the Israelis brought with them and Max failed to bring any of his own. Bob said Max was a true genius in design but was a horrible business man. Max ended up selling everything he made for nothing and never made a fortune like he truly should have.

 

Also Bob was one of the 6 people that was at the first Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot. I also met one of the other 6 today and Bob told me the sames of the other 4 but man, we talked so long and he told me so much I can remember them all. He said he doesn't go much anymore because he is getting to old (70's) and has to walk to much because it has grown so much. He also said that back in the day down time on firing was only 15 minutes or so and that today they mess with the targets and field so much that you barley get to shoot. I very much enjoy talking to Bob and try to soak up as much info and stories as I can from him. He said he hadn't seen Max since the late 70's when Max moved to Georgia and asked if I have ever talked to him. I told him that I never had and that he had died. He was unaware of his death and visibly upset.

 

I had to share all this as I am both proud and amazed about Max developing the original AA-12 in my hometown so close to my house. I feel truly honored to speak with such people. Also the owner of the AA-12 design (Jerry) wants me to call him on his personal cell. He personally bought Max's blueprints for the AA-12. I asked Bob is he knew what ever came of the original AA-12 prototype and he said he did not.

 

On a side note, did you know that Dayton, Ohio is the innovation capital of the world? There is more patents and inventions per capita than anywhere else. We aren't just talking small thing either. Some of them are Flight, electric ignition for engines, internet search engines, AA-12............... It is the little city that could.....

[Navy87Guy 1]

I've always been underwhelmed with automatic weapons capable of firing hundreds of rounds per minute when the magazine capacity is only a fraction of that. So with this weapon, you get 1.3 seconds of firing time with the standard (8-rd) magazine and 5.3 seconds with a 32-rd drum. Then what?

 

Is it capable of accepting a choke? (It's cylinder bore)

 

It only uses 2 3/4" shells - no 3" magnums.

 

It doesn't look like you have any options when it comes to the pistol grip or the buttstock - particularly length of pull. So you get "one size fits all".

 

Is there an option for any kind of accessory rail? How are tactical teams going to mount lights?

 

The height of the rear sight above the cylinder looks like it would be a problem in tactical situations -- particularly for the military getting in and out of vehicles.

 

I'm probably going out of my way to sound negative, but I'm not overly impressed. I don't see this as a quantum leap forward in shotgun technology. Maybe I would feel differently after shooting one, but if the semi-auto version comes anywhere even close to the auto price, I'll never find out!

 

Jim

[dayanx 1]

The quantuum leap comes with the addition of fin-stabilized FRAG-12 grenade rounds. at nearly 300 rounds per minute thats a walk on the wild side. makes me wonder if it is technically feasible to belt feed shotshells.

[Paladin 37]

Found out some very interesting stuff today. I was at the Bill Goodman Gun show today and was speaking to a regular there. His name is Bob Bond. He used to run around with Max Atchisson. Max Atchisson is the designer of the AA-12 and the USAS-12. He told me of all kinds of stuff that Max made. What I found to be the most interesting is back in the 70's Max designed the AA-12 and most of his stuff in a shop that is less than a 1 mile from the house I grew up in. In Northridge of Harrison Township connecting to the northside of Dayton. Most people consider Northridge to be Dayton and we do have a Dayton mailing address. He said that max made a M1 style .308 that had the same constant recoil system. He said Max would show people the rifle by putting the buttstock against his chin and firing it. He was showing it to the Israelis and they was loving it until Max told Bob to shoot his M-60 at the same targets. Bob said he told him he was crazy and it wasn't a good idea but Max insisted. Bob said that after he did all interest was off for the rifle. He was also showing them a full-auto .22lr upper for the m-16. Bob said the upper functioned great on every kind of ammo except for a specific low velocity ammo (forget the brand) and that is all the Israelis brought with them and Max failed to bring any of his own. Bob said Max was a true genius in design but was a horrible business man. Max ended up selling everything he made for nothing and never made a fortune like he truly should have.

 

Also Bob was one of the 6 people that was at the first Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot. I also met one of the other 6 today and Bob told me the sames of the other 4 but man, we talked so long and he told me so much I can remember them all. He said he doesn't go much anymore because he is getting to old (70's) and has to walk to much because it has grown so much. He also said that back in the day down time on firing was only 15 minutes or so and that today they mess with the targets and field so much that you barley get to shoot. I very much enjoy talking to Bob and try to soak up as much info and stories as I can from him. He said he hadn't seen Max since the late 70's when Max moved to Georgia and asked if I have ever talked to him. I told him that I never had and that he had died. He was unaware of his death and visibly upset.

 

I had to share all this as I am both proud and amazed about Max developing the original AA-12 in my hometown so close to my house. I feel truly honored to speak with such people. Also the owner of the AA-12 design (Jerry) wants me to call him on his personal cell. He personally bought Max's blueprints for the AA-12. I asked Bob is he knew what ever came of the original AA-12 prototype and he said he did not.

 

On a side note, did you know that Dayton, Ohio is the innovation capital of the world? There is more patents and inventions per capita than anywhere else. We aren't just talking small thing either. Some of them are Flight, electric ignition for engines, internet search engines, AA-12............... It is the little city that could.....

 

 

Mike, don't forget the electric automobile starter ie. the Ketterings

Northridge huh- I'm from Belmont

[Gunfanatic 221]

Here is same pics of the first proto type AA-12.

 

AA_12.bmp

[dayanx 1]

looks very USAS-10-ish

[MikeD 541]

The quantuum leap comes with the addition of fin-stabilized FRAG-12 grenade rounds. at nearly 300 rounds per minute thats a walk on the wild side. makes me wonder if it is technically feasible to belt feed shotshells.

Also the contant recoil system. Have you seen the video of the 99lb lady shooting it and not being kicked all to hell.

[MikeD 541]

Mike, don't forget the electric automobile starter ie. the Ketterings

Northridge huh- I'm from Belmont

Good ol' Dayton! Yep, one of them nutridge plat rats. You Belmont boys weren't exactly pushovers yourselves. You probably grew up mostly fighting the eastside didn't ya!

[MikeD 541]

Bump. There is a thread in the saiga-12 section comparing the 2 and thought the information in this thread might help a little.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Bump. There is a thread in the saiga-12 section comparing the 2 and thought the information in this thread might help a little.

I know this thread was started some time ago - but watching the future weapons clip - the AA 12 is shown stripped of its plastic cladding. At its core it appears to be a gas operated weapon using the same basic system as the AK. Its full auto fire rate of 300 rounds per minute can be matched by the S12's semi auto fire rate of about 5 shells a second. If one were to weld the charging handle to the top of the S12 bolt carrier, and put the gun in a similar composite shell, you'd be really hard pressed to tell the difference between the twp.

 

Having observed you tube video's demonstrating the full auto fire rate of both the AA 12 and S12, it's not hard to surmise that the full auto S12 puts lead downrange at about twice the rate of the AA 12.

 

Given the choice, I would take a semi auto S12 over a full auto AA 12 in a heartbeat.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

WS

[ghost13 0]

Well, the AA-12 had several things going for it, including not having to be cleaned often and not having much recoil, as several people have mentioned. I can definitely see why Mike would want one! Maybe you could get a police friend to get one for you. I was wondering if you set up a security firm in Mexico or somewhere outside the U.S., if you could buy some Frag 12 rounds. Just a thought!

[madmax4x4 68]

The op is 3 years old, now he has a fully saiga 12. To me that's more bang for your buck even if you could buy an aa-12

Edited September 6, 2010 by madmax4x4

[Casp 119]