Aim surplus is attempting to get the Siver Bear importer to import Sil

[akdog 3]

to import 65 mm steel case buckshot (#4 buck, #1 buck, and 00 buck).

I got an email from Bryan at Aim. The wheels are turning. Also, the 65mm case ammo will fit in the AGP mags. No case deformation when left loaded in the magazine.

Edited August 2, 2007 by dog

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Shweeeeet!

[kmoore 3]

AWESOME. This stuff is definitely a must have for HD/SD shotties. The price we pay for not having our shells lined up in the belly of the shotty is the possibility of deformation.

[Azrial 1,091]

I am looking forward to these! I need them for both my S12 and my tube feed magazine shotguns.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Aren't theses the rounds that are a we bit to long for the Saiga mags to function well?Are we just loading top shell in the mags to avoid deformation and standard shells within?

[EustaceLufgren 0]

I'm game for these!

 

I would probably just load the first round. Right now I am going to use a 1 1/4 oz slug as the first round, and hope the plastic doesn't deform too much to impact feeding.

[akdog 3]

Aren't theses the rounds that are a we bit to long for the Saiga mags to function well?Are we just loading top shell in the mags to avoid deformation and standard shells within?

 

No. Those are the 70mm steel case ammunition.

The ones they are attempting to have the importer bring in are 65 mm (2.55 inches).

Keep in mind 2.55 inches is the same length as an unshot American standard 3 inch magnum plastic cartridge. The shorter 65 mm shells will fit in the AGP and factory Saiga mags. You can load the whole magazine full of these. No deformation like many plastic cartridges often do. If your top round deforms,

it can possibly jam during feeding. Steel case shells prevent such a problem in the Saiga. These cartridges were made for the Saiga shotgun.

Edited August 3, 2007 by dog

[G O B 3,516]

I've been hoarding my last few boxex of the Barnul steel, slugs and 00 buck. Last FEW boxes.

 

 

It will be good to fill a 50 cal can again.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Me likes!Me wants!!!

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

I'm down for a case......

[whatmanual 44]

Dont be so fast....

 

 

I went up to AimSurplus (just up the road from me) and bought 20 boxes of their steel case ammo (currently its just the 7 1/2 bird shot).

 

Although it certainly will not deform while sitting in the AGP mag I found an issue that I'm not happy about. The plastic "plug" that holds it all in the case is set back about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch from the end of the end (these are 3 inch shells).

 

1) In a full AGP mag, its difficult to load them into the gun. There's no give at all (no shit, its steel) and again, these are the 3" shells.

 

2) The worst problem is that because the shell itself doesnt have the support -from the plug to the end of the shell, it will "CRIMP" the shell when you try to cycle the bolt back. Essentially, if you have 10 rounds the bolt will dig into, crimp, and virtually feel like its locked up (ruins the top shell from chambering too since its crimped pretty good).

~From about 7 rounds or less it cycles and feeds just fine because when the bolt goes back it "pushes" down the rounds into the mag. So long as your mags are clean and do not have problems feeding up you should have no problem.

 

 

Looking at the 3" shell and seeing the space from the plug to the end, I could dremmel off the end of the case and make them 2 3/4 with no problems at all. That might reduce the length enough so the bolt won't crimp the shell as it goes back.

 

 

 

Summary: If I buy Russian steel ammo again for the S12, it will be either 2 3/4 or probably not at all.

 

 

~Steve

[Karma 0]

Dont be so fast....

 

 

I went up to AimSurplus (just up the road from me) and bought 20 boxes of their steel case ammo (currently its just the 7 1/2 bird shot).

 

Although it certainly will not deform while sitting in the AGP mag I found an issue that I'm not happy about. The plastic "plug" that holds it all in the case is set back about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch from the end of the end (these are 3 inch shells).

 

1) In a full AGP mag, its difficult to load them into the gun. There's no give at all (no shit, its steel) and again, these are the 3" shells.

 

2) The worst problem is that because the shell itself doesnt have the support -from the plug to the end of the shell, it will "CRIMP" the shell when you try to cycle the bolt back. Essentially, if you have 10 rounds the bolt will dig into, crimp, and virtually feel like its locked up (ruins the top shell from chambering too since its crimped pretty good).

~From about 7 rounds or less it cycles and feeds just fine because when the bolt goes back it "pushes" down the rounds into the mag. So long as your mags are clean and do not have problems feeding up you should have no problem.

 

 

Looking at the 3" shell and seeing the space from the plug to the end, I could dremmel off the end of the case and make them 2 3/4 with no problems at all. That might reduce the length enough so the bolt won't crimp the shell as it goes back.

 

 

 

Summary: If I buy Russian steel ammo again for the S12, it will be either 2 3/4 or probably not at all.

 

 

~Steve

 

I thought that was going to be a problem. I was thinking just using the top 2 rounds as the steel cased and the rest normal plastic shells and only loading 9 in the AGP mags. Anyone want to give that a try and report back?

 

I don't think I could handle living any closer than I do already to AIM Surplus. I'm about half an hour away and have to talk myself out of just dropping a bill in there and buying another bolt action rifle all the time.

[whatmanual 44]

I bought them initially for being the top round. -Even more so since they are only 7 1/2 shot loads.

 

Tried it being the top with 9 below... crimped the end when pulling the charge handle back = locked the bolt forward and couldn't get past it.

Tried with 8 = same effect

Tried with 7 = same

Tried with 6 = "tolerable". No crimp/jam (or very minor) and no deform below of course in all cases above (after all, I can load 10 plastics just fine).

 

What it comes down to on these is simply the 3" length of the shell, but it only used 2 3/4 of it before you see the plastic end cap in there. The length will go all the way to the end of the mag of course and that will always mean the bolt will smash into the casing on its way back.

-add the spring in the mag being moderately strong (as it should be) and its a combo like a "half-way filled cigarette" (main body would be fine..but the end has no support and gets crushed before it can transfer that pressure to move the rounds down into your mag).

 

 

I'll try to dremmel down a few rounds to 2 3/4. I think the shorter length combined with having everything that does remain being "packed" will remove that issue.

 

~S

Edited August 5, 2007 by whatmanual

[akdog 3]

whatmanual,

 

As an example, Federal Cartridge 3 inch magnum #4 buck shells are about 2.55 inches length while crimped and ready to feed (unshot). With standard American shotgun shells, 3 inches relates to the hull length after it has been shot and fully expanded. The steel case Russian shells do not extend after being shot. The advertised case length remains the same before and after they have been shot.

The Silver Bear steel case shells that Aim currently has are about (70mm) 2.756 inches in length. These 7.5 birdshot Silver Bear are the ones reported to not fit into the AGP mags. I think what your not understanding is that the 65mm steel case Silver Bear which is 2.55 inches in length will fit in the AGP mags unlike the 7.5 birdshot cases you have used. Just so its clear, Barnaul does not manufacture 3 inch steel case shells which would be about 75mm. Aim sells (and you bought) 70mm/ 2.756 inch shells. The Silver Bear steel case shells that may soon be imported will probably be 2.55 inches (65mm).

Edited August 5, 2007 by dog

[whatmanual 44]

Probably should've been clearer....

 

 

Just looked at the stack of hulls I have from the last box I shot and also my remaining new boxes. The shells are marked "12" and "65" on there with some other marking. In reality they are actually "about" 2.5 inches in length (just pulled a live round and stood it next to my tape measure).

These are the same box as what is currently sold on their website as "2 3/4 in. shells" though.

That is the box I have sitting right in front of me now...pics available.

 

I was mistaken calling them 3" sells...but the reason is because I know the plug is pushed back in about 1/4 inch (a little over) -and NOT at the end of the shell as the pic on their site would imply. Some hamster in my brain took a break and it made me think they are not full length. I'm used to having either the plug on the end like a cap, or the end crimped. Since the plug was back in there about a 1/4 inch my brain read "yep, 2 3/4 load but must be in a 3" shell" .,...bah. not important.

 

 

 

 

The main point I was making is that the plug is set back inside the shell, there is virtually no support at the tip area for a 1/4 inch. (regardless of length debates of 3" or 2.75" or mm or whatever). When you try to rack the 1st round into the gun, if its a full or stiff mag, the bolt will crimp the tip of the case and create its own roadblock. Again, size isnt the issue.

 

I could probably post pics of loading, closeup of the round, closeup of the bolt hitting the shell, and the after effect if you like.

Edited August 5, 2007 by whatmanual

[twinhairdryers 2]

I'd be a little paranoid about running a steel on steel dremel bit on a live round. any chance you could spark it and light it into your face? that would make for a bad day.

[scoutjoe 276]

I was mistaken calling them 3" sells...but the reason is because I know the plug is pushed back in about 1/4 inch (a little over) -and NOT at the end of the shell as the pic on their site would imply. Some hamster in my brain took a break and it made me think they are not full length. I'm used to having either the plug on the end like a cap, or the end crimped. Since the plug was back in there about a 1/4 inch my brain read "yep, 2 3/4 load but must be in a 3" shell" .,...bah. not important.

 

.

[whatmanual 44]

I'd be a little paranoid about running a steel on steel dremel bit on a live round. any chance you could spark it and light it into your face? that would make for a bad day.

 

 

LOL... no. That was earlier when I was thinking they were 3" in length. They are actually 2.55" (marked 65 on the shell as well).

The point is that the main part of the end cap is set back into the shell casing about 1/4 inch. This leaves no support at the end at all.

 

My thought was that case length was the issue. I would've used one of the 100 spent shells I have and placed a cap on there to simulate the support it would (should) have. Its either a support issue at the end of the cap to the edge of shell... or a feed angle from the mag that loses the battle with the bolt each time.

 

Perhaps I'll take one of the live shells and take pics showing step by step exactly the problem with them and let everyone else take a crack at it.

 

 

~S

[Racer 27 37]

I'd be a little paranoid about running a steel on steel dremel bit on a live round. any chance you could spark it and light it into your face? that would make for a bad day.

 

You could probably use a pipe cutter if you wanted to cut them. No heat just watch how hard you compress the wheels so you don't deform the shell.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

That's what I was thinking. Either cut them down with a pipe cutter or tin snips

OR...fill the open end with something to support it like another wad or wax candle...

 

I want some of these to try. It woul;d be good for a top round and if nothing else they are Russian and they look KEWL!

[whatmanual 44]

Send me your info and I'll UPS a box of 10 to play with. I think I can ship UPS only?