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#1 User is offline   Gunfixr 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 05:54 PM

Well, finally got my new Saiga S12 done. I only started it in late January.
It has lots of features not seen yet on an S12. First, some in-process pics:
The dust cover clearance for the bolt handle closed up.
Posted Image

The mounted FAL charging handle.
Posted Image

The Garand/ M1A style safety.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

This S12 has the SRT trigger system, kept in check by a custom Garand/M1A safety. It has had the extractor relief tuned, and the feed ramp opened up, as well as the bottom of the bolt and bolt carrier relieved for smooth operation. The charging handle has been cut off of the carrier, and a custom FAL charging handle mounted to the left side. The stock is the CAA aluminum tube AR style stock, with the tube shortened to give a max length of 10 1/4" extended, and mounted directly to a 1/4" thick back plate welded into the receiver. The plate is inset to the receiver 1/8", and has an integral sling loop on the left side. It still has 4 of the original 6 positions, with the closest right against the receiver. The handguard is a UTG freefloat AR handguard modified to fit the S12. There is a tab attached to the rear that inserts into the receiver as the original forearm, and a screw mount threads directly into the original mounting hole in the gas block. HK sights front and rear are mounted. It is Duracoated in Flat Black and a custom mixed Woodland Green.
The gas plug isn't painted, as it's temporary. A self-regulating plug is in development that will replace it.
And now, pics of the finished product:
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

The FAL charging handle mounted on the left side allows for easy charging of the gun without removing the firing hand from the pistol grip, or having to reach over or under the weapon. Like on the FAL, it doesn't reciprocate when the gun is fired.
Posted Image

The BHO has been modified to be operable by the trigger finger, both up and down, so that the bolt can be dropped for loading without racking the charging handle. The safety is pulled rearward for safe, and pushed forward, away from the trigger, to fire.
Posted Image

The flash hider is custom made to resemble the Smith Vortex, and is permanently attached, ending at 18 1/4". Inside the bore is a permanently installed Imp Mod choke tube.
Posted Image

Finally, a pic of the interior area of the FCG. There was a LRBHO as well, but it was in a bind with everything else and came back out. As can be seen, the extra spring for the safety pretty much fills it up.
Posted Image
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#2 User is offline   DOXtheOX 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:04 PM

wow. very impressive.

If I could just make one request... a picture with the dust cover off so we can see the belly of the beast.
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#3 User is offline   Gunfixr 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:25 PM

Ok, got it snapped and added. Couldn't get it real clear, but it's better than the other two.
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#4 User is offline   DOXtheOX 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:29 PM

That is grade A talent right there.
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#5 User is offline   gr8santini 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:45 PM

AMAZING!
This is gonna take cracker jack timing, wang!
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#6 User is offline   hobbyshooter 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 07:44 PM

That is wild! Really showing off your skills on that gun.
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#7 User is offline   John_pro2a 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 07:48 PM

Gawd damn that's sexy!

Are you offering that LH charging mod? If so, how much?
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#8 User is offline   madmax4x4 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 08:01 PM

:eek: :eek: :eek: love the safety and the BHO
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#9 User is offline   utahhandyman 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:19 PM

Very nice, I may be copying you. Been wanting to do the FAL style charging handle or using a g3 tube and charging handle.
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#10 User is offline   Gunfixr 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:31 PM

I seriously considered the G3 charging handle, but in the end, discarded the idea. The reason was that the G3 doesn't use a gas piston, so nothing is reciprocating in that tube as the rifle cycles. On the S12, of course the piston is moving back and forth through there. The handle would have to engage it, but I didn't want it moving while the gun cycled. The FAL seemed easier.

Seemed, at least. It wasn't easy, but maybe that's the trouble with the first one. I got probably 2 days or more just in that.
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#11 User is offline   utahhandyman 

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:39 PM

View PostGunfixr, on Jun 2 2009, 08:31 PM, said:

I seriously considered the G3 charging handle, but in the end, discarded the idea. The reason was that the G3 doesn't use a gas piston, so nothing is reciprocating in that tube as the rifle cycles. On the S12, of course the piston is moving back and forth through there. The handle would have to engage it, but I didn't want it moving while the gun cycled. The FAL seemed easier.

Seemed, at least. It wasn't easy, but maybe that's the trouble with the first one. I got probably 2 days or more just in that.


Yeah I believe the amount of time you put into that project. On the G3 idea I was considering a sleeve that would fit around the op rod so when at rest it would be all the way forward and the rod would just slide past. But when engaged it would contact the front of the bolt carrier. still in the idea phase, I have a cetme kit I was going to use for ideas, Sarco seems to have g3 tubes and charging handles I could modify as an experiment.
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#12 User is offline   nyclu3 

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 06:56 AM

Gunfixr,

A true work of art. Goes to prove that if you want it bad enough, you always find a way to make it happen. Great craftsmanship. I'm soooooooooooooooo jealous.

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#13 User is offline   Blazer76 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:10 AM

Gunfixer,

thats sweet

is this some thing you are planning on bringing to the market?

and if not would you be willing to do this to someones rifle? or would you be willing to help some one do it?

sorry had to ask
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#14 User is offline   GunFun 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:11 PM

I love the charging handle. and the.... .... ...

I noted a bit of a teaser for a self regulating gas knob. I would be down for one of those if it was <$65, I am split between buying your current one or modding mine to make it toolless. The self regulation bit would just seal the deal. Especially for the LE types (and wannabes ) who REALLY don't want to fiddle with settings in the middle of action.

Sad about the lrbho. I think it would be worth it even if the parts were on the outside of the receiver.
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#15 User is offline   loose cannon 

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:27 PM

im a fan of that garand style safety,also i find the idea of a self reg "gunfixr knob"interesting as well.
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#16 User is offline   jmacken37 

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:09 PM

Gunfixr,

You my friend are a STUD! Beautiful work! I've definitely scored by getting you to work on my full auto S12!

Jake
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#17 User is offline   Paladin 

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 07:14 PM

I can't beleive I missed this!

Wow, that's very nice mods you have incorporated.

How is the charging handle set up so as not to reciprocate with the bolt carrier?
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#18 User is offline   Gunfixr 

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 02:52 PM

It's a standard FAL charging handle. They sit in front of the bolt carrier, and push it back when the handle is pulled. Since it's not attached to the bolt carrier, the handle isn't drawn back when the gun is fired.

If I come up with a way to spring the safety differently, the LRBHO can go back in. But for now, there's no room.

The self-regulating plug is in development. I have a prototype mostly finished. I'll have to play with it awhile. It's more tricky than one you just adjust. It's going to need to pretty much keep all the gas below a certain point, for low-powered shells, but bleed off enough of the high-powered shells to not abuse the gun. The big problem is going to be the differences in the guns themselves, which will mean the setting for different guns will be different. It's probably going to be adjustable, ie, when you get it, you set it to your gun and then it's GTG.

I'm also working on a rather different puck, preferably to work with a slightly different self-adjusting plug, as a set. It'll be more, but there'll be two pieces, and you'll get a 922r part. The idea is to negate the effects of the plastic fouling that builds up in some guns.
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#19 User is offline   Azrial 

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 06:06 PM

I really like the flash hider, what steel did you carve that out of? :D
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#20 User is offline   GunFun 

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 02:46 AM

all of that sounds good to me. I bet about every other guy on the forum has left his gun on the wrong setting at least once. It will be nice to just use it without thinking about whether it might fail to cycle or beat itself up. depending on the price point, I would like to be a beta.

On the other point, are you saying that your lrbho works fine with standard ak safety setups? If so, please sell it with a magwell and use the enourmous stacks of cash you make to buy yourself some other fancy projects.

This post has been edited by GunFun: 17 June 2009 - 02:49 AM

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#21 User is offline   Gunfixr 

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 10:49 AM

When I worked in a regular machine shop, every so often a carbide insert boring bar gets trashed. You know, CNC, 1180 in/min rapid feed, and a program error are hell on tooling. Anyway, they come way too long to use, and we cut them off. I always saved the pieces. I made it from one of those. I don't know what precisely the steel is, but some kind of tool steel to be tough and not bend easily.
It's made to resemble a Smith Enterprises Vortex. I just measured a .223 one and a .30 cal one, and scaled it up to fit a 12 ga. bore. I did trim the diameter down some, as it was just too fat, but the rest is to scale. Also, their grooves are helical cut, whereas mine are just a straight angle. I don't have the equipment to cut the helix. It's permanently attached at 18 1/8" by two blind screws. There's a permanently installed IMP MOD choke tube inside, so the holes were drilled and tapped through the barrel w/o the tube in place, then the tube was installed, the screws run down snug (so not to crush the tube), ground off flush, and welded in.

The LRBHO does work with the standard safety, but the mags require a mod, just like Warfield Armorys did. I just don't have much time to bring it to market right now, got too many other things going.


I sometimes think I'd almost just have to quit working on guns and spend my time developing and marketing the stuff I come up with.
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#22 User is offline   doodi1 

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  Posted 17 June 2009 - 11:31 AM

Love the Gun! :wub: It is one of the coolest Saiga conversion i have seen.

What is the ETA on the self regulating gas plug?
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#23 User is offline   Paladin 

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 07:11 PM

View PostGunfixr, on Jun 16 2009, 03:52 PM, said:

It's a standard FAL charging handle. They sit in front of the bolt carrier, and push it back when the handle is pulled. Since it's not attached to the bolt carrier, the handle isn't drawn back when the gun is fired.


I'm REALLY interested in how you set up the FAL charging handle.

Is it a full handle like this?

http://estore.websit...tail.bok?no=446

Did you have to mill out space on the bolt carrier to accommodate it? Does it just rest against a step on the bolt carrier?

Any pics/description would be appreciated. That is a mod I may do to ALL of my Saiga's.
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#24 User is offline   Gunfixr 

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 11:02 PM

Yep, it's a standard metric pattern charging handle like the one in the link.

To get it on the S12, first I cut a 1/8" wide slot on the left side of the receiver from the barrel trunnion back, the length of the handle from the driving pin to the end. The scope rail had already been removed. This slot was just about .010" above the guide rail for the bolt carrier, so the driving pin wouldn't drag on the rail as the handle was pulled to the rear. I cut an inlet into the trunnion that was wide enough for the charging handle, and flush with the receiver. It stops right at the last digit of the serial number. This puts the handle driving pin against the trunnion when fully forward. I took a piece of 1/8" thick flat bar that was 3/4" wide, and milled a groove in one side as wide as the base of the charging handle, where it is the widest. I then milled a short 1/8" groove in the center of the wide groove at each end that went all the way through. The wide groove was only deep enough to clear the thickness of the widest part of the handle, the "T" part. I then welded it to the receiver, using 1/8" pins at either end to align the plate (flat bar) with the groove in the receiver. I then had to tweak it straight from the weld distortion. Then I milled out the flat bar to the width of the narrow part of the "T" on the handle, checking for fit as I got close. Once it would enter, although with some bind, the machining was mostly done on the receiver, except to drill a spot for the detent plunger to lock the handle in the forward position. Then, the receiver and handle were tweaked and filed some, until the handle would slide freely in its track without being too sloppy. A small notch had to be cut into the bolt carrier, right above the guide rail slot on the left side, so that when it went forward it would not hit the drive pin on the handle. It actually clears the pin by about .010", to be sure it doesn't contact the pin and peen it over time. A small pad was then welded on the bottom of the bolt carrier under the left guide rail, as the carrier would drop off the rail when fully rearward, because of the clearance notch. The bolt carrier could conceivably catch on the end of the guide rail after travelling to the rear, and not go forward and chamber the next round. The pad keeps it in alignment, as it sits on the rear trunnion. A notch had to be cut in the left locking lug on the bolt head itself, to clear the handle driving pin, or it would drag the charging handle to the rear every time the gun was fired. The notch is only large enough to clear the pin, and leaves at least 2/3 of the lug in place. Since a shotgun is a relatively low-pressure weapon, this shouldn't be a problem. This, and the small weld pad, were discoveries made after actually getting the other part done. I was pretty much committed at that point, and so just continued on. If I screwed the gun up, it's mine. I then discovered that the handle hit the dust cover, and it had to be cut along the left side to clear both the track I welded on, as well as the handle itself. Since it was cut all the way to the rear, the back corner where it sits down in the groove across the rear trunnion was gone. This is what mainly keeps it centered on the receiver, this, and how it goes down the sides of the receiver a bit. The recoil spring rear piece also keeps it in line, but mostly keeps it down. I had to weld a pad on the rear left side of the receiver to stick up inside and make sure the cover was retained on the left side.

After about 100rds of test firing, a couple of observations have been made: The travel of the charging handle is limited, if you want the slot through the receiver covered. It's enough to charge the weapon, but with a full drum mag, it kind of barely seats the first round. Also, it won't eject a chambered round, as it only goes right to the ejector, but not past it. The FAL cartridge length is less than that of the 3" shotgun, apparently. There are 3 immediately obvious fixes for this problem; lengthen the slot and travelling track for the charging handle, provided you don't mind the open slot visible at the rear end, do this and weld an extension to the charging handle to cover the longer slot, or move the ejector forward some. Moving the ejector forward is the easiest, but may create problems with firing 3" shells. I haven't had time to look into it yet. It may be possible to move the ejector a small amount and get it to kick out a loaded round, and still eject fired 3" shells. Any future guns so modified can be done any way desired.

I will probably do this for customer guns in the future. First, I want to give it some time and use to be sure there aren't any unforseen problems that crop up. It won't be cheap, as it took almost 3 whole days to get the track right enough to work. Yes, it would be faster next time, but not necessarily a lot. I also had to make the track from scratch.
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#25 User is offline   Nelco 

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 01:08 AM

View PostGunfixr, on Jun 2 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Well, finally got my new Saiga S12 done. I only started it in late January.
It has lots of features not seen yet on an S12. First, some in-process pics:
The dust cover clearance for the bolt handle closed up.
Posted Image

The mounted FAL charging handle.
Posted Image

The Garand/ M1A style safety.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

This S12 has the SRT trigger system, kept in check by a custom Garand/M1A safety. It has had the extractor relief tuned, and the feed ramp opened up, as well as the bottom of the bolt and bolt carrier relieved for smooth operation. The charging handle has been cut off of the carrier, and a custom FAL charging handle mounted to the left side. The stock is the CAA aluminum tube AR style stock, with the tube shortened to give a max length of 10 1/4" extended, and mounted directly to a 1/4" thick back plate welded into the receiver. The plate is inset to the receiver 1/8", and has an integral sling loop on the left side. It still has 4 of the original 6 positions, with the closest right against the receiver. The handguard is a UTG freefloat AR handguard modified to fit the S12. There is a tab attached to the rear that inserts into the receiver as the original forearm, and a screw mount threads directly into the original mounting hole in the gas block. HK sights front and rear are mounted. It is Duracoated in Flat Black and a custom mixed Woodland Green.
The gas plug isn't painted, as it's temporary. A self-regulating plug is in development that will replace it.
And now, pics of the finished product:
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

The FAL charging handle mounted on the left side allows for easy charging of the gun without removing the firing hand from the pistol grip, or having to reach over or under the weapon. Like on the FAL, it doesn't reciprocate when the gun is fired.
Posted Image

The BHO has been modified to be operable by the trigger finger, both up and down, so that the bolt can be dropped for loading without racking the charging handle. The safety is pulled rearward for safe, and pushed forward, away from the trigger, to fire.
Posted Image

The flash hider is custom made to resemble the Smith Vortex, and is permanently attached, ending at 18 1/4". Inside the bore is a permanently installed Imp Mod choke tube.
Posted Image

Finally, a pic of the interior area of the FCG. There was a LRBHO as well, but it was in a bind with everything else and came back out. As can be seen, the extra spring for the safety pretty much fills it up.
Posted Image



That's a real slick conversion. You wouldn't happen to know where I could get a rifled barrel for a Saiga-12 or at least a Paradox choke tube?
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#26 User is offline   GunFun 

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 02:25 AM

That's a real slick conversion. You wouldn't happen to know where I could get a rifled barrel for a Saiga-12 or at least a Paradox choke tube?
[/quote]

+1 on the paradox. I noticed in one of your old guides for an ak wood build you listed a paradox in your parts list for $58 I think.
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#27 User is offline   Broken-Tengu 

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:50 PM

View PostGunfixr, on Jun 2 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Well, finally got my new Saiga S12 done. I only started it in late January.
It has lots of features not seen yet on an S12. First, some in-process pics:
The dust cover clearance for the bolt handle closed up.
Posted Image

The mounted FAL charging handle.
Posted Image

The Garand/ M1A style safety.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

This S12 has the SRT trigger system, kept in check by a custom Garand/M1A safety. It has had the extractor relief tuned, and the feed ramp opened up, as well as the bottom of the bolt and bolt carrier relieved for smooth operation. The charging handle has been cut off of the carrier, and a custom FAL charging handle mounted to the left side. The stock is the CAA aluminum tube AR style stock, with the tube shortened to give a max length of 10 1/4" extended, and mounted directly to a 1/4" thick back plate welded into the receiver. The plate is inset to the receiver 1/8", and has an integral sling loop on the left side. It still has 4 of the original 6 positions, with the closest right against the receiver. The handguard is a UTG freefloat AR handguard modified to fit the S12. There is a tab attached to the rear that inserts into the receiver as the original forearm, and a screw mount threads directly into the original mounting hole in the gas block. HK sights front and rear are mounted. It is Duracoated in Flat Black and a custom mixed Woodland Green.
The gas plug isn't painted, as it's temporary. A self-regulating plug is in development that will replace it.
And now, pics of the finished product:
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

The FAL charging handle mounted on the left side allows for easy charging of the gun without removing the firing hand from the pistol grip, or having to reach over or under the weapon. Like on the FAL, it doesn't reciprocate when the gun is fired.
Posted Image

The BHO has been modified to be operable by the trigger finger, both up and down, so that the bolt can be dropped for loading without racking the charging handle. The safety is pulled rearward for safe, and pushed forward, away from the trigger, to fire.
Posted Image

The flash hider is custom made to resemble the Smith Vortex, and is permanently attached, ending at 18 1/4". Inside the bore is a permanently installed Imp Mod choke tube.
Posted Image

Finally, a pic of the interior area of the FCG. There was a LRBHO as well, but it was in a bind with everything else and came back out. As can be seen, the extra spring for the safety pretty much fills it up.
Posted Image


CRAZY ! Nice work !!! :up:
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#28 User is offline   Twinsen 

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:35 PM

I don't know how I missed this thread! Do you have a twin sister?! :f0ckers:
I might end up being around a lot more.
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#29 User is offline   Blazer76 

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:58 AM

U said that there is no room for the LRBHO what if U put it in the top cover?
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#30 User is offline   Nailbomb 

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 04:08 PM

Someone posted a link to this recently, and I know I'm bumping a long dead thread, but this still is a awsome build.
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen.
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945

"I've always felt that the real horror is next door to us, that the scariest monsters are our neighbors."
George A. Romero

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