[gator1010]

if shtf would you rather have an AR-15,AK-47, or a saiga semi (what ever caliber)

this will help me end an office debate

This post has been edited by gator1010: 03 June 2009 - 09:41 AM

[Glocker]

I'd personally prefer the AR-15 but any of the above would work just fine in a SHTF situation.

[bernerz]

Depends if it is a longer range situation the AR, under 200 and in a non-nato country with little chance of getting more 5.56 then the AK.

[desert dog]

Given these choices, the select fire AK47 is a clear winner!

Compared to the Saiga, you have;
* Full auto capability.
* better ergonomics, shorter length, better trigger, ability to accept high cap AK mags (assuming the Saiga is not converted)

Compared to the AR-15, you have;
* A bullet that can actually penetrate cars, concealment, and many forms of cover (an absolute necessity in a civilian SHTF situation).
* Extreme reliability in the toughest, wettest, dirtiest, muddiest conditions.
* An easier to maintain weapon.
* Cheap, durable magazines that are always 100% reliable.
* less controls requireing fine motor skills in the heat of combat.
* in the rare event of a failure to fire, AKs only require one clearance drill for all types of failures (ARs have at least 3)
* More durable sights, that are quicker in close range fights than AR style aperture sights. (it will all be close range, you won't be sniping neighbors in a SHTF situation)
* A gun durable enough to be used as an impact weapon if needed.

[superA]

desert dog, on Jun 3 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Given these choices, the select fire AK47 is a clear winner!

Compared to the Saiga, you have;
* Full auto capability.
* better ergonomics, shorter length, better trigger, ability to accept high cap AK mags (assuming the Saiga is not converted)

Compared to the AR-15, you have;
* A bullet that can actually penetrate cars, concealment, and many forms of cover (an absolute necessity in a civilian SHTF situation).
* Extreme reliability in the toughest, wettest, dirtiest, muddiest conditions.
* An easier to maintain weapon.
* Cheap, durable magazines that are always 100% reliable.
* less controls requireing fine motor skills in the heat of combat.
* in the rare event of a failure to fire, AKs only require one clearance drill for all types of failures (ARs have at least 3)
* More durable sights, that are quicker in close range fights than AR style aperture sights. (it will all be close range, you won't be sniping neighbors in a SHTF situation)
* A gun durable enough to be used as an impact weapon if needed.

Yup.

[BobAsh]

AK no contest.

[Shandlanos]

^^^^^^^^ What they said up there. AK for all of the above reasons and:

-When there isn't a retarded run on ammo because of silly politicians and silly people freaking out about silly politicians, surplus is inexpensive and it's easy to have a bunch of corrosive junk ammo laying around

-It's cheap, so you can get two. In the unlikely event that one fails catastrophically or is destroyed, you can dig the other one up and keep shooting.

-Drum magazines are reliable and relatively easy to find, requiring no special lubricant or babying.

-Can be fitted with a folding stock. No stupid fucking buffer tube reducing concealability and ease of storage.


Clear winner

[voonman]

Sawed off Saiga 12 for close combat situations and Zombie Attacks...

My Ak47 would be strapped on my back since the saiga12 will more than likely run out of ammo soon

An AR15 if it came in a 6.8mm..dont care for .223 it doesnt have enough knock down power

Then probably my 454 Casual ...If i cant defeat them with that..I will go out with a smile and My as well strap a full tank of propane to my chest with a flare at the end of it..

This post has been edited by voonman: 04 June 2009 - 04:28 AM

[yakdung]

The visual power of the AK in a real life disaster situation:
http://www.freerepub...s/1563080/posts

Yakdung

[Twinsen]

Oh I took it to mean a semi AK. So I voted Saiga (12).

[Azrial]

AK. Easy to use, simple to maintain.

[dragonwolf]

Depending if I were in a the city or country being I can only vote for one I would choose Saiga in .308 alittle heavy for
close quarters but the addded range and knock down power of the 308 v.s. 223. Full auto fire is just a waste of ammo
learn to shoot with accuracy not spray led

[A307]

It depends on your vision of shtf. I picked the AR because in the most likely shtf senario in my mind there will be AR's and ammo in battlefield pick up conditions.

[WardenWolf]

I'll take the AK action, in general, either in a PSL (with non-corrosive ammo) / Saiga .308, or a Saiga .223. Why? Because cleaning supplies are bulky and emit noxious fumes. They can be hard to transport and store in bulk, and the odds you depleting your cleaning supplies or being separated from them are very high. The ultimate question I ask is, "How long will this rifle work if separated from its cleaning kit?"

(1) AR-15: Not very long.

(2) AK action (corrosive ammo): A long time, but it won't shoot well for very long because it'll wreck the barrel.

(3) AK action (non-corrosive ammo): Nearly forever.

Ultimately, the AK is the superior platform from a long-term performance standpoint. Ideally, though, you want one in a caliber that you can readily get non-corrosive ammo for. Surplus 5.56 and 7.62x51 will work out of the appropriate Saigas, and is non-corrosive. Surplus in the Soviet calibers, on the other hand, is all corrosive.

[Shandlanos]

Good points, Mike! I hadn't thought about the corrosion problems thoroughly. I have a Bulgy mag pouch that I keep stocked with a two-chamber Russian oil/solvent bottle and an extra AK cleaning kit, one loaded magazine and the other magazine pocket filled with patches. One thorough cleaning after using corrosive ammo wipes out a good 20% of the solvent, and a goodly number of the patches. I've got about 500 rounds of non-corrosive stuff, mostly berdan-primed steel cases, and that's about as much as can be conveniently carried (with my drum and all my box magazines, I guess I could carry 575, but I don't have sufficient pouches for 14 30-rounders, 2 40-rounders, and the drum).

Maybe I use too much solvent... Does anybody here have more experience with corrosively-primed ammo? Could you, for example, use just a little bit of solvent at first, then complete the cleaning using only oiled patches? I've only fired a few thousand rounds of corrosives, all 7.62x25, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54R and have always had the opportunity to take them home immediately after for thorough cleaning. Every time I've had the chance to be extremely, anal-retentively thorough, but if anybody has insight as to just how thorough is necessary and what you can get away with without destroying the barrel, I'd love to hear it.

[Vultite]

Well, I picked Saiga b/c I like what I've done to it and I know it'll always work. But one thing I would rather vote for is a Robinson Arms XCR, b/c it's 1 rifle you can carry with extra swap kits so you can swap from 5.56 to 7.62X39 to 6.8SPC or 6.5 grendel....So if you run outta ammo, you can swap out for whatever else you can get your hands on without lugging multiple rifle systems.

[desert dog]

Don't pick your caliber based off of what our military or police are using. The BIGGEST SHTF fallacy is the belief that you can resupply from cops or soldiers.

THE UNFORTUNATE TRUTH: In every SHTF event I have researched, when police or military see you with a gun or are alerted to its presence, THEY TAKE IT! Not just here, but all over the world.

Civil unrest is FAR more likely than a Red Dawn. You will not be fighting alongside our troops and cops - they will be trying to control YOU.

Do really think they will give you ammo? Will you be stupid enough to make yourself a stand-out or possible threat by asking? Do you really think that you are going to sneak into a military compound like a ninja and steal ammo? Do you really envision yourself running around a Katrina situation stealing ammo from dead reservists? The reality is that you must have what you need before the SHTF.

If things got REALLY bad, I mean apocalyptic bad, most likely the powers that be would try to resupply from YOU!

My point: the SHTF ammo situation will be the same whether you shoot .223 or 8mm Mauser; you will use what you have and nothing more. Don't use .223 as a crutch for not stockpiling enough ammo.

Look at other factors like probable engagement distances, the need to conceal, probability of shooting from and into cover (like an urban area), probability of fighting from a vehicle, capacity and handling, durability and reliability of the platform, and cost to stock up the ammo. I think 7.62x39 AK is about perfect for my needs, but out in the country a Saiga or FAL 308 would be my choice. YMMV.

[FrustratedInCali]

desert dog, on Jun 5 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

Don't pick your caliber based off of what our military or police are using. The BIGGEST SHTF fallacy is the belief that you can resupply from cops or soldiers.

THE UNFORTUNATE TRUTH: In every SHTF event I have researched, when police or military see you with a gun or are alerted to its presence, THEY TAKE IT! Not just here, but all over the world.

Civil unrest is FAR more likely than a Red Dawn. You will not be fighting alongside our troops and cops - they will be trying to control YOU.

Do really think they will give you ammo? Will you be stupid enough to make yourself a stand-out or possible threat by asking? Do you really think that you are going to sneak into a military compound like a ninja and steal ammo? Do you really envision yourself running around a Katrina situation stealing ammo from dead reservists? The reality is that you must have what you need before the SHTF.

If things got REALLY bad, I mean apocalyptic bad, most likely the powers that be would try to resupply from YOU!

My point: the SHTF ammo situation will be the same whether you shoot .223 or 8mm Mauser; you will use what you have and nothing more. Don't use .223 as a crutch for not stockpiling enough ammo.

Look at other factors like probable engagement distances, the need to conceal, probability of shooting from and into cover (like an urban area), probability of fighting from a vehicle, capacity and handling, durability and reliability of the platform, and cost to stock up the ammo. I think 7.62x39 AK is about perfect for my needs, but out in the country a Saiga or FAL 308 would be my choice. YMMV.

Then in that case it would be the Saiga-12 shotgun. Shotgun ammo is very versatile and also cheap and easy to stock up on. And if you're to steal ammo from a guy down the street who "bought it"... most likely he's got 12ga ammo for his home security shotgun. Besides most sporting good stores will most likely have stock in shotgun ammo rather than some specific centerfire rifle or pistol ammo. Case in point, have you looked at your local Walmart lately?

Of course an AK would be great if I had already stocked up and bought a few crates of that Egyptian 7.62 surplus at one of my local gun shops. But sporting goods stores and places that stock any kind of ammo like Walmart are most likely to have a large supply of 12ga almost all of the time.

[desert dog]

FrustratedInCali, on Jun 6 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

desert dog, on Jun 5 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

Don't pick your caliber based off of what our military or police are using. The BIGGEST SHTF fallacy is the belief that you can resupply from cops or soldiers.

THE UNFORTUNATE TRUTH: In every SHTF event I have researched, when police or military see you with a gun or are alerted to its presence, THEY TAKE IT! Not just here, but all over the world.

Civil unrest is FAR more likely than a Red Dawn. You will not be fighting alongside our troops and cops - they will be trying to control YOU.

Do really think they will give you ammo? Will you be stupid enough to make yourself a stand-out or possible threat by asking? Do you really think that you are going to sneak into a military compound like a ninja and steal ammo? Do you really envision yourself running around a Katrina situation stealing ammo from dead reservists? The reality is that you must have what you need before the SHTF.

If things got REALLY bad, I mean apocalyptic bad, most likely the powers that be would try to resupply from YOU!

My point: the SHTF ammo situation will be the same whether you shoot .223 or 8mm Mauser; you will use what you have and nothing more. Don't use .223 as a crutch for not stockpiling enough ammo.

Look at other factors like probable engagement distances, the need to conceal, probability of shooting from and into cover (like an urban area), probability of fighting from a vehicle, capacity and handling, durability and reliability of the platform, and cost to stock up the ammo. I think 7.62x39 AK is about perfect for my needs, but out in the country a Saiga or FAL 308 would be my choice. YMMV.

Then in that case it would be the Saiga-12 shotgun. Shotgun ammo is very versatile and also cheap and easy to stock up on. And if you're to steal ammo from a guy down the street who "bought it"... most likely he's got 12ga ammo for his home security shotgun. Besides most sporting good stores will most likely have stock in shotgun ammo rather than some specific centerfire rifle or pistol ammo. Case in point, have you looked at your local Walmart lately?

Of course an AK would be great if I had already stocked up and bought a few crates of that Egyptian 7.62 surplus at one of my local gun shops. But sporting goods stores and places that stock any kind of ammo like Walmart are most likely to have a large supply of 12ga almost all of the time.

Bar None - shotty is probably the best option for a defensive situation in the home and everyone should have one for that reason. But the shotty is a very specialized weapon and is only really great in the narrow scope of inside the home defense. If you need to defend the outside perimeter of the home, or violence spills into the streets, or you find the need to escape and evade - the rifle is king. I would take almost any self-loading rifle over a shotty in a SHTF situation that requires pulling the trigger on targets outside of the home. Shottys are for bird hunting, skeet shooting, home defense, and zombie video games; a rifle is better for everything else.

[vbrtrmn]

If the proverbial shit were to hit the fan and for some reason I could only take one of my guns, I'd probably grab the Saiga-12, my thought behind why falls back to the old west, the shotgun was an extremely formidable weapon, especially for close-range combat. I would figure most confrontations in a SHTF situation would be people approaching you to try to rob you of your goods in a close confrontational setting, the 12-gauge 00-buck is the best way to go, if there is one guy or several, the 12-gauge 00-buck could easily disable one or more of them.

What do police carry for riot control? A rifle .. nope, a nice pump-action 12-gauge.

Though open carrying any weapon is going to seriously dissuade anyone from approaching you, just remember if you are open carrying something, be damn sure you are extremely proficient with it.

If I had to leave the house, it would probably be with my roommate, I'd give him the shotty and I'd carry the AK, since I'm proficient with both and he's proficient with neither, better for him to carry a long gun which takes less skill to operate.

[SOPMOD]

BobAsh, on Jun 3 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

AK no contest.

+1

Roger That,Ghost Rider...7.62 Kalashnikov is "numba wun" when poop hits the ventilation system and you don't know what to expect.

Stops Cars
Folds Badguys
Penetrates Brush/Medium Hardness Barriers
Knocks Bricks out of walls turning them into secondary projectiles
Runs and Runs and Runs and Runs and Runs without any handholding or babysitting

My 20" Colt has longer legs but no ass,my 308s are porky and I can't haul enough ammo to stay froggy all day and night but my Saiga 7.62 AK is just right

[desert dog]

vbrtrmn, on Jun 8 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

If the proverbial shit were to hit the fan and for some reason I could only take one of my guns, I'd probably grab the Saiga-12, my thought behind why falls back to the old west, the shotgun was an extremely formidable weapon, especially for close-range combat. I would figure most confrontations in a SHTF situation would be people approaching you to try to rob you of your goods in a close confrontational setting, the 12-gauge 00-buck is the best way to go, if there is one guy or several, the 12-gauge 00-buck could easily disable one or more of them.

What do police carry for riot control? A rifle .. nope, a nice pump-action 12-gauge.

Though open carrying any weapon is going to seriously dissuade anyone from approaching you, just remember if you are open carrying something, be damn sure you are extremely proficient with it.

If I had to leave the house, it would probably be with my roommate, I'd give him the shotty and I'd carry the AK, since I'm proficient with both and he's proficient with neither, better for him to carry a long gun which takes less skill to operate.

Police carry Shotguns for riot control so they can use "less-lethal" projectiles (bean-bags, rubber slugs, and tear gas), not so they can do some mall-ninja hollywood style street sweep. Many police still carry shotguns on the rack in their cruiser because that is all they are allowed to carry - when given the option of a rifle, they always take the rifle.

All of the world's militarys use the shotgun for door breaching, rebar cutting, less-lethal crowd control, and for CQB to a limited extent.

Also on the training issue, its much easier to train someone to use the AK than the shotty.

That is all. Like I said, shotty is a very specialized weapon.

[Lakedweller]

Used an M16 in Viet Nam and an M14 .....

LOVE to have an M14 over all the choices .....

I do have a Saige 7.62 and a Saiga 223 since I can't gave an M14 ........

[Azrial]

gator1010, on Jun 3 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

if shtf would you rather have an AR-15,AK-47, or a saiga semi (what ever caliber)

this will help me end an office debate

"Hey Guys! Listen here, a bunch of strangers on the Internet said..." If THAT will end your office debate, you guys need to learn to debate with more ardor!

[-Shooter-]

Going with the assumption that "Saiga semi" meant 7.62x39, and "AK-47" meant an actual full-auto AK.........I went with "Saiga semi".

[Hoopster]

I chose the AK because shotgun ammo is to large and heavy. I'd rather have a few mags of 30 rounds on me than a ton of 12 gauge ammo, especially if I've gone mobile.

BTW I think this poll is confusing. I assumed Saiga semi meant shotgun and AK meant all other AK variants. Now I'm not so sure what the poll options mean.

This post has been edited by Hoopster: 16 June 2009 - 11:54 AM

[vbrtrmn]

desert dog, on Jun 8 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

Police carry Shotguns for riot control so they can use "less-lethal" projectiles (bean-bags, rubber slugs, and tear gas), not so they can do some mall-ninja hollywood style street sweep. Many police still carry shotguns on the rack in their cruiser because that is all they are allowed to carry - when given the option of a rifle, they always take the rifle.

All of the world's militarys use the shotgun for door breaching, rebar cutting, less-lethal crowd control, and for CQB to a limited extent.

Also on the training issue, its much easier to train someone to use the AK than the shotty.

That is all. Like I said, shotty is a very specialized weapon.

Bullshit... police in my county carry shotguns loaded with 00-buck, in each cruiser, not bean bags or rubber bullets. I'm fairly certain that they aren't trained in mall ninja tactics, get a clue. Using your logic, stage coaches used a double barrel shotgun as a weapon of choice to scare away chickens.

[Hoopster]

vbrtrmn, on Jun 16 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

desert dog, on Jun 8 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

Police carry Shotguns for riot control so they can use "less-lethal" projectiles (bean-bags, rubber slugs, and tear gas), not so they can do some mall-ninja hollywood style street sweep. Many police still carry shotguns on the rack in their cruiser because that is all they are allowed to carry - when given the option of a rifle, they always take the rifle.

All of the world's militarys use the shotgun for door breaching, rebar cutting, less-lethal crowd control, and for CQB to a limited extent.

Also on the training issue, its much easier to train someone to use the AK than the shotty.

That is all. Like I said, shotty is a very specialized weapon.

Bullshit... police in my county carry shotguns loaded with 00-buck, in each cruiser, not bean bags or rubber bullets. I'm fairly certain that they aren't trained in mall ninja tactics, get a clue. Using your logic, stage coaches used a double barrel shotgun as a weapon of choice to scare away chickens.

I think stage coaches used shotguns because the AK hadn't been invented yet. I think you both are somewhat correct but you can't make blanket statements about Law enforcements reasons for issuing one over the other. The Shotgun is very versatile for up close work and many do use them for less than lethal riot control. My buddy keeps an AR in the trunk of his cruiser which they call an Urban Patrol Rifle. I always laugh at him when he calls it that but whatever. I'd rather have an AK or shotgun.

[blackmamba]

SAIGA SEMI ALL THE WAY IN 7.62

M16 just wouldn't stand up to the dirt and grime if shtf

As for the AK im assuming it will be fully auto and in a shtf situation it would just be easier to manage
ammo consumption with a semi. Select fire Ak would dominate all in this situation on the other hand

[KromTEA]

desert dog, on Jun 5 2009, 08:34 AM, said:

Don't pick your caliber based off of what our military or police are using. The BIGGEST SHTF fallacy is the belief that you can resupply from cops or soldiers.

THE UNFORTUNATE TRUTH: In every SHTF event I have researched, when police or military see you with a gun or are alerted to its presence, THEY TAKE IT! Not just here, but all over the world.

Civil unrest is FAR more likely than a Red Dawn. You will not be fighting alongside our troops and cops - they will be trying to control YOU.

As part of the military (USMC and now USCG) and LE community I think you underestimate how committed most of us are to upholding freedoms like the 2nd Amendment. If a true SHTF scenario came into play and big daddy govt tried to take the citizen's arms there would be a civil war inside the military and the govt. I'm not saying there won't be areas and situations where government tyrany will occur, but I just don't ever see a widespread coordinated effort ever happening. Localized areas (Kalifornia, Mass, New York, etc..) I would expect the government coming after it's people. But never on a national scale. So being able to get ammo that is produced domestically for and used by the govt is a very valid argument. In a sustained SHTF scenario there will be more .223 ammo out there to be had than 7.62x39 period. And yes if your town had to survive and protect against outside threats (large criminal gangs since there are no feds to stop them etc.) I absolutely think that we would be providing security and fighting along side our local LEOs. This is America, freedom is our heritage, and I have faith in our citizens to unite to protect it self.

1 Saiga semi (converted), more accurate than most other AKs and you can choose caliber for your environment.

2 AK-47 it's reputation proceeds..... FYI I think FA in x39 is a waste of ammo.

3 AR cause nothing else was available

This post has been edited by Krom: 19 June 2009 - 09:34 AM