[RoughRider666]

volkov, on 28 October 2009 - 01:43 AM, said:

just something to consider that I thought about with my choice... Yeah, the saiga 12 is the best if someone breaks into your home in a SHTF situation.. But realistically (haha, laughed a bit at myself for saying realistically) in a SHTF situation you need to be able to fight off people who will either fill your house with bullets rather than confront you in close quarters, or burn it, don't count on them getting in close... plus you gotta leave sometime to get food, and if some unfriendlies are hanging out with the average bolt action hunting rifle a saiga 12 is going to fall short.. literally..

another thing to consider is your house layout... I think of the saiga 12 as the BEST home defence weapon.. but currently I'm in an apartment and my door is locked, if someone broke into my apartment and started beating on my door (inside the main apartment) my best option would be to wall them through my shower which effectively acts as the end of the hall.. (in other words, they'd be beating on my door, and bullets would come flyng at them from the wall on their left side, about 4 feet from them). just the way my house works out to keep me out of their expected area (behind my door).. So although I think of the 12 as the best home defence weapon, in my particular situation I would grab my ak-47 first while they try to break in my door and I wreck them from an angle they never saw coming rather than confront them with the 12.

Best Answer ive heard yet, I LOVE IT!!!

Just send a few rounds through the door while you're waiting for them to breech you...lol

This post has been edited by RoughRider666: 28 October 2009 - 06:20 PM

[THE RIPPER]

This is one of the more interesting and informative threads that I have read.
+1 Gentlemen
EDIT
I left out Bohound.
+1 Bohound and congrats on the twins!

This post has been edited by THE RIPPER: 30 October 2009 - 11:16 AM

[BronCobraJet]

SJgunguy24, on 20 June 2009 - 07:16 AM, said:

I'll opt for an AK or a converted Saiga.

One thing i've thought would be a kick ass SHTF set up would be a Glock 20 or 21 because 10mm is a bitch to find coupled with one of those mech tek CCU carbines. The 10mm is a very potent round and through a rifle barrel it has the goods for a hunting, defense round. I think the 45 won't quite have the gas to reach out there but thats still a formidable setup. Mag interchangablity, small package, ease of maitainance, and reliable.

Thanks for the heads up! I hadn't seen this before.

[BronCobraJet]

Krom, on 24 June 2009 - 06:03 PM, said:

Valid points, like I said in big cities and in kali confiscations would probably happen.

Just because our military does disarm people overseas doesn't mean anything (agree or not) because they are not Americans citizens and don't have the same rights. Plus you guys mentioned that troops here in the US have participated in arms confiscation (Katrina?) I'd like more clarification on how/when this took place. And if Katrina is the only main time that this took place I don't think that we really have much to worry about (I'll explain):

Katrina was horrible for the people that went through it, especially gun owners. However it exposed the unconstitutional actions of the govt. Since these actions are out in the open I think it will be difficult for something like that to be repeated now that the country,the LEO community, and the military is aware of what happened and that it was blatantly unconstitutional.

FYI this is my 7th year of service and this year is the first year that I've had mandatory training on the constitution and govt. And this training specifically focused on the limited power of the federal govt, and the separation of powers.

Also I think there is another element that is being overlooked, we are talking about a sustained long term SHTF scenario, not short term civil unrest. Also I think that it is allot more likely to have LE and Military going after arms in a short term (riots, martial law etc..) SHTF scenario than a sustained long term situation. In a short term situation it's easier to justify violating rights in a temporary fashion to control the situation.

But in a long term SHTF scenario you will be in a community just trying to make it. Local LE (in my opinion) would be able to handle basic security and safety of the community. But without a strong federal govt in place to combat organized regional crime, local areas could be easily overwhelmed by gangs etc.. This is were LEOs and armed citizens would be fighting side be side. I could see even having a rotation of armed deputized citizens to protect against outside threats to the community. Which goes back the original point I was trying to make, having a common weapon caliber with local LE and military is advantageous.

First you state that it's your 7th year of service. You don't state what service that is. Then you go on a delusional string of how you have had mandatory training on the constitution and government. AND then you have the GALL, to state that "it's easier to justify VIOLATING RIGHTS in a temporary fashion to control the situation". Just whose side are you on motherfucker? Don't you realize that the people that you most passionately want to disarm are the SAME people that will be on your side if Shit Hits The Fan? You can deputize us, brief us on what needs to be done, and COUNT on us to keep the bad guys at bay. We probably practice shooting our weapons as much as you do yours, and are just as proficient. Why do you automatically think that we are the bad guys? We can be your best friend in time o0f need, in a small town we are the people that you see everyday on the street. I just don't get the mentality of the police at times. We share the same common goals as you to get rid of the bad guys, yet are treated as criminals until proven innocent. If every home owner in LA (affluent RICH, mansion owners) shot the National Guard as they were trying to take their weapons away, maybe it would have made an impact. After watching the vids on YouTube, I will have no problem doing that myself. It was utter pure bullshit. Stand for something, or fall for anything. Common calibers don't amount for much when the gov. takes your weapons of self protection away. Maybe you need to go study some more. Maybe look up Nazi history.

[RoughRider666]

BronCobraJet, on 01 November 2009 - 03:32 AM, said:

Krom, on 24 June 2009 - 06:03 PM, said:

Valid points, like I said in big cities and in kali confiscations would probably happen.

Just because our military does disarm people overseas doesn't mean anything (agree or not) because they are not Americans citizens and don't have the same rights. Plus you guys mentioned that troops here in the US have participated in arms confiscation (Katrina?) I'd like more clarification on how/when this took place. And if Katrina is the only main time that this took place I don't think that we really have much to worry about (I'll explain):

Katrina was horrible for the people that went through it, especially gun owners. However it exposed the unconstitutional actions of the govt. Since these actions are out in the open I think it will be difficult for something like that to be repeated now that the country,the LEO community, and the military is aware of what happened and that it was blatantly unconstitutional.

FYI this is my 7th year of service and this year is the first year that I've had mandatory training on the constitution and govt. And this training specifically focused on the limited power of the federal govt, and the separation of powers.

Also I think there is another element that is being overlooked, we are talking about a sustained long term SHTF scenario, not short term civil unrest. Also I think that it is allot more likely to have LE and Military going after arms in a short term (riots, martial law etc..) SHTF scenario than a sustained long term situation. In a short term situation it's easier to justify violating rights in a temporary fashion to control the situation.

But in a long term SHTF scenario you will be in a community just trying to make it. Local LE (in my opinion) would be able to handle basic security and safety of the community. But without a strong federal govt in place to combat organized regional crime, local areas could be easily overwhelmed by gangs etc.. This is were LEOs and armed citizens would be fighting side be side. I could see even having a rotation of armed deputized citizens to protect against outside threats to the community. Which goes back the original point I was trying to make, having a common weapon caliber with local LE and military is advantageous.

First you state that it's your 7th year of service. You don't state what service that is. Then you go on a delusional string of how you have had mandatory training on the constitution and government. AND then you have the GALL, to state that "it's easier to justify VIOLATING RIGHTS in a temporary fashion to control the situation". Just whose side are you on motherfucker? Don't you realize that the people that you most passionately want to disarm are the SAME people that will be on your side if Shit Hits The Fan? You can deputize us, brief us on what needs to be done, and COUNT on us to keep the bad guys at bay. We probably practice shooting our weapons as much as you do yours, and are just as proficient. Why do you automatically think that we are the bad guys? We can be your best friend in time o0f need, in a small town we are the people that you see everyday on the street. I just don't get the mentality of the police at times. We share the same common goals as you to get rid of the bad guys, yet are treated as criminals until proven innocent. If every home owner in LA (affluent RICH, mansion owners) shot the National Guard as they were trying to take their weapons away, maybe it would have made an impact. After watching the vids on YouTube, I will have no problem doing that myself. It was utter pure bullshit. Stand for something, or fall for anything. Common calibers don't amount for much when the gov. takes your weapons of self protection away. Maybe you need to go study some more. Maybe look up Nazi history.

Krom,

I agree with you on just about everything you said in that post except for the highlighted part. Temporary fashion my foot! You honestly think those people during Katrina that had their firearms taken are ever going to get then back? I guess is NO! I had a friend of mind that had his AR taken during a routine traffic stop, and it was a LEGAL Grandfathered gun pre AWB, and it took him almost a year to get it back, and he almost didnt. My point to this is: if that happened without a major catastrophy, then you're damn sure not going to get them back during or after one. Period!

This post has been edited by RoughRider666: 01 November 2009 - 01:09 PM

[Krom]

First I'm former Sgt Marine 5yrs, US Coast Guard 2yrs and counting... I think you guys are misunderstanding my position.

I don't agree with the the govt EVER taking a lawful citizens arms, and I was ordered to execute this illegal action I would refuse to follow that order and so would most of the other LEOs I know.

Look like it or not, as you all are well aware of sometimes the govt acts outside of it's constitutional power in a tyrannical fashion and violates the rights of it's citizens (Katrina).
(In my opinion) I'm just trying to point out that IF (not on in my watch) the govt was to try and confiscate arms from citizens it is easier and more likely for it to be in a in a sorta knee-jerk re-action. Like using a state of emergency as an excuse. Not saying it's right or I agree.

I am saying that I see the ability to share calibers with LE and military is an ADVANTAGE SHTF wise.

BTW it's best to prevent the govt from ever accessing your lawful arms, because as was pointed out before you might never have you property returned (especially in a SHTF situation) if they take it.

This post has been edited by Krom: 01 November 2009 - 06:29 PM

[WaffenSchmied]

Krom, on 01 November 2009 - 06:24 PM, said:

First I'm former Sgt Marine 5yrs, US Coast Guard 2yrs and counting... I think you guys are misunderstanding my position.

I don't agree with the the govt EVER taking a lawful citizens arms, and I was ordered to execute this illegal action I would refuse to follow that order and so would most of the other LEOs I know.

Look like it or not, as you all are well aware of sometimes the govt acts outside of it's constitutional power in a tyrannical fashion and violates the rights of it's citizens (Katrina).
(In my opinion) I'm just trying to point out that IF (not on in my watch) the govt was to try and confiscate arms from citizens it is easier and more likely for it to be in a in a sorta knee-jerk re-action. Like using a state of emergency as an excuse. Not saying it's right or I agree.

I am saying that I see the ability to share calibers with LE and military is an ADVANTAGE SHTF wise.

BTW it's best to prevent the govt from ever accessing your lawful arms, because as was pointed out before you might never have you property returned (especially in a SHTF situation) if they take it.

I withheld comment until I better understood you position. It's clear you are are a patriot and a true servant of our constitutional democracy.

Thank you for your service, and your comments.

WS

[Diamondback]

Krom, thank you for clarifying and for your service.

Semper Fi and Semper Paratus!

[690gr]

Are we talking TEOTWAWKI SHTF, or your regular garden variety SHTF? If its the former, I would like to take back my more practical choice and go with the FG42. It would not matter in that case what I really chose, so I would like to go with retro style.

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[akastormi]

With all in my reach here, Saiga's, AK's, PSL's, SKS's. . . . .
I must admit , SHTF go to would be my FAL. It's got the range and knock down.
I would gladly sacrifice weight for weapon.. Second would be the Woo.
Shotgun, plain jane pump, any of them for a back up.

[guiri]

desert dog, on 08 June 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

rebar cutting,

Rebar cutting with a shotgun? Am I missing something here?

[WaffenSchmied]

I haven't ever seen one cut rebar, but I have observed 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's rendered into splinters in a matter of seconds. Actually had a friend use an S12 I built for him take out a hard to reach roof beam during a demolition project. Rebar? With the right loads and enough persistence, why not?.....

WS

[BpS12]

At current, a Bullpupped S12. Eventually, the same in a SBS config as a PDW, and a Saiga x39 in 20" barrel(the .308 will come later as I can afford it) for that "reach out and drop someone" effect. I figure if I can pick up .223 ammo, the gun wont be far from it and I like the stopping power of the larger calibers anyway. To me, the AR is a "throw away" as reliabilty is questionable in a SHtF. Yes, cleaning is a requirement, but which platform works best with MINIMAL cleaning?
Saiga/AK platform all the way.

Good luck,

[itsagirl]

I'd rather have my Saigas...a 12, .308 and .223....it's what I have and what I'm most comfortable shooting so that would have to get my vote. I've been reading on here 3 years and finally put a picture up...a bit of a procrastinator I suppose.

Jenn

[Diamondback]

Depends on a lotta things. Am I gonna be the armory for the neighborhood or a few individuals entrusted to my care, or am I lone-wolfing it?

Shotgun: not just any S12, but Abomination specifically--I'd really prefer the fictional 12" select-fire with rail-mounted 40mm grenade-launcher, but until we can get NFA'34 (have I mentioned I really freakin' hate paperwork?) and the various state-level Bans overturned or repealed I'll make do with the 19" semi with 37mm flare-launcher I'm working up specs for in a pinch.

Pistol: my M1911A1, at least until I gain the metalworking skill to build the pair of redesigned "handed" 1911s I've concepted out on paper.

Short-range Battle Rifle: I'm a small dude in the shoulders, but I prefer heavy calibers over poodle-shooters. Semi M14, FAL or 7.62x51NATO Saiga (not to be confused with dimensionally-identical .308 Winchester, it's a hotter load). Or just load up Abomination with slugs...

Jenn, better to wait on some things until you have a feel for a community and how it fits into your comfort-zones. Good things come to those who wait anyway, right?

[danny boy]

Everytime I see this topic I always get the Hank Williams Jr country boy can survive lyrics goin in my head. "We come from the West Virginia coal mines..."

I would want a semiauto rifle able to drop man sized targets to 600m so I'd have to carry a .308 Saiga with a posp. My first instinct was Romak3 but its limited to 10 rounders, and the damn thing is four feet long. I usually take 2 rifles and at least 400 rounds for each every time I go to the range and 400 rounds of .308 is easier to pack than 54R mainly because of the rimmed cases.
A Saiga.308 with a 6x42 or 8x42 scope and the availability of hi cap mags you get long range capability AND the handiness of an AK up close. For me its the best all around choice for where I live and my SHTF probable scenerio. That being said I really need to get another one.

A .22 survival rifle is something everyone should have.

I think that in this situation I would not arm my friends that aren't already armed but most likely just shoot them and feed them to my kids. Nothing is more dangerous than someone that has no firearms training or experience in a high stress situation with a loaded weapon in their hands.

This post has been edited by danny boy: 17 December 2009 - 08:40 PM

[redfish28]

I went with my piston AR-15. Runs great and my follow up shot are quicker than with an AK. I can also hit moving targets better with an AR. Probably cause of the low recoil. Its just what I'm comfortable with. I also don't use standard ball ammo for defense so that helps. As far as broken bolts and parts go..... I must be one of the weird ones out there cause I keep extra parts for every rifle including my AK. Sh does HTF sometimes. I just dont want to be looking for parts of any kind when it hits the fan plus my weapon if you know what I mean.

[jc-75]

The only problem with the shtf situation is alot of thing's could unfold. You should be prepared,if you live in town i would probably bug out as soon as possible before it gets real bad.I have allready made preparations with a buddy of mine to do just that. He's got a 7.62.x39 saiga i have a 223 saiga,we figured between the two we got things covered,except the longe range shots. I honestly feel from what i have read and heard lately, things are gonna get much worse before they ever get good!

[redfish28]

Could not agree more. When you think about, it I guess there are alot of other preparations to consider. I've often thought having enough food was more important than what gun or caliber I'm toting. Don't get me wrong weapons/defense is up there on the list of needful things, but if your starving it makes it difficult to fight effectively.

[Azrial]

A large raincoat, goggles, respirator and a mop with a bucket of bleach!

[Ruffian72]

Azria, Like the humor. Hope everyone gets it.

[WFO2]

New here but will toss in my two cents . I choose the AK like the one in the picture . The only exception to that might be that I converted it to .223 caliber. My thinking at the time was that 223 is a common Nato round and there should be plenty of it available in ummmm SHTF situtation .But again the right tool for the right job and I'am sure there are many choices .

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[WFO2]

However this is an Saiga forum and I would be remiss if I did not post this one .

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[Nailbomb]

Whatever one that is closest. Right now its a S-12...

Normaly its not.

[csspecs]

Me thinks a .22lr and a backpack full of ammo. Because a backpack full of 12 gauge is like 200 rounds and .22 is more like 5,000 rounds

[black rifle crazy]

Krom, on 19 June 2009 - 09:26 AM, said:

desert dog, on Jun 5 2009, 08:34 AM, said:

Don't pick your caliber based off of what our military or police are using. The BIGGEST SHTF fallacy is the belief that you can resupply from cops or soldiers.

THE UNFORTUNATE TRUTH: In every SHTF event I have researched, when police or military see you with a gun or are alerted to its presence, THEY TAKE IT! Not just here, but all over the world.

Civil unrest is FAR more likely than a Red Dawn. You will not be fighting alongside our troops and cops - they will be trying to control YOU.

As part of the military (USMC and now USCG) and LE community I think you underestimate how committed most of us are to upholding freedoms like the 2nd Amendment. If a true SHTF scenario came into play and big daddy govt tried to take the citizen's arms there would be a civil war inside the military and the govt. I'm not saying there won't be areas and situations where government tyrany will occur, but I just don't ever see a widespread coordinated effort ever happening. Localized areas (Kalifornia, Mass, New York, etc..) I would expect the government coming after it's people. But never on a national scale. So being able to get ammo that is produced domestically for and used by the govt is a very valid argument. In a sustained SHTF scenario there will be more .223 ammo out there to be had than 7.62x39 period. And yes if your town had to survive and protect against outside threats (large criminal gangs since there are no feds to stop them etc.) I absolutely think that we would be providing security and fighting along side our local LEOs. This is America, freedom is our heritage, and I have faith in our citizens to unite to protect it self.

1 Saiga semi (converted), more accurate than most other AKs and you can choose caliber for your environment.

2 AK-47 it's reputation proceeds..... FYI I think FA in x39 is a waste of ammo.

3 AR cause nothing else was available

+1 on the shtf situation
as far as rifles go what ever you train with the most

[going12220]

SHTF leaves a bunch of possible scenarios that I’d want some help with:

I keep six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew);
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.

From having that information known along with whether I was moving or staying put then I’d decide what IMHO was the best weapon or weapons of choice.

My original feeling about a Glock was I wouldn’t mind having one in my back pocket if my 1911 had a problem has now almost been reversed.

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This post has been edited by going12220: 25 March 2010 - 09:21 AM

[YARP]

"if shtf what would you rather have?"

-Your mom, a 6 pack of tube socks and 578 boxes of Jello with a recording of "its a small small world" playing in the background repeatedly......

Sorry I couldn't resist

[going12220]

YARP, on 27 March 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

"if shtf what would you rather have?"

-Your mom, a 6 pack of tube socks and 578 boxes of Jello with a recording of "its a small small world" playing in the background repeatedly......

Sorry I couldn't resist

sick really really sick,
but also maybe the best reply to date.
there's always room for jell-o,
sick but kinda cool.

[turkeyshoot]

gotta go with:
a lot of armed protection (their weapon is up to them)
keys to the Playboy mansion
and a truck load of Viagra
with all the time in the world or till I drop dead (could be a fun but short shtf)

and I can tell you never saw my mother, and yes sick but funny but sick