[desert dog]

22LR is great for post apocalyptic self sufficiency, but when society breaks down its 7.62x39 all the way for me if I could only have one rifle.

For holding down the fort or bugging out on roads or out of population centers, only having a 22 is a death sentence. Ill worry about fighting off looters, car-jackers, and roadside ambushes first - then worry about killing bunnies for food later. The sagging pants crowd will try to do me in far before starvation will. A thirty cal thumping out the back window of my suburban will end a car chase real fast.

Where I live, taking care of the 2-legged animals comes first.

[gentlemanjim]

In a real SHTF...I would just walk away...well drive

We are in a rural area 100 miles from a city...thats still way to close for me
I would destroy all firearms that I did not take with me...and take what ammo my truck could carry....burn the rest
A very harsh unfriendly place is where I would set up house
But I live in the desert as it is
Jim

[MrM4]

All of them are better then having nothing but a rock

Personally I would go with a AR15, multi uppers could be carried at 1 time for differant applications long 1 ont he reciever and a SBR type in your pack. Advantages include Fast silencer attachment with cans like th Halo, Ammo and Mags along with replacement parts would be the most availible in a SHTF situation do to them being issed to so many PDs and Mil. AR15 wins hands down for long distance shooting, with the right barrel and ammo. Plus the ability to add a .22 kit at the drop of the hat and have something much quiter, particularly with a can, which may come in handy.

Down side is the need to keep clean. Not always easy to do I would guess.

[desert dog]

MrM4, on Aug 6 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

All of them are better then having nothing but a rock

Personally I would go with a AR15, multi uppers could be carried at 1 time for differant applications long 1 ont he reciever and a SBR type in your pack. Advantages include Fast silencer attachment with cans like th Halo, Ammo and Mags along with replacement parts would be the most availible in a SHTF situation do to them being issed to so many PDs and Mil. AR15 wins hands down for long distance shooting, with the right barrel and ammo. Plus the ability to add a .22 kit at the drop of the hat and have something much quiter, particularly with a can, which may come in handy.

Down side is the need to keep clean. Not always easy to do I would guess.

Good points with the multi-caliber argument, well thought out.

But my issue with the AR system is mainly one of trust, even though I own 8 examples of the system and they run nicely. My wife and I do alot of carbine classes and 3-gun shoots and see a large percentage of ARs go down, especially in some of the longer carbine classes when mud is an issue. You see broken bolts, firing pins, extractors, bolt carriers, numerous jams/FTF, bad magazines etc. in almost every class. Ive even watched one famous AR "guru" at Gunsite break his bolt carrier during a class, right after explaining how reliable it is. AR guys seem to carry a few pounds in spare parts everywhere they go, even spare bolts in their grips. When have you seen an AK bolt break? How many AK guys carry spare bolts or firing pins (you cant even buy spare Saiga bolts)? Even a cheap crappily build WASR will not let you down when it matters. How many cheap commie steel mags have you seen break?

I would not hesitate to defend my home with an AR or use it as a standardized weapon as part of a large group, as this is where the AR really shines. But out alone on foot crawling through sewers to get out of dodge, sloshing through mud and rain, and sleeping in the bushes, I know my AK can be trusted regardless of conditions or abuse.

You may have an AR that is 100% all the time, but I don't believe I do. I guess confidence is the sticking point for me.

Also, I know that my AK is capable of stopping a vehicle or taking out an active shooter behind cover.

The AR does have the distance accuracy advantage, but what real SHTF situation could you find yourself in where you will shoot past 200 yards? Bad guys don't wear bad guy uniforms, so as a civilian, how do you identify a threat to your life at that distance, especially if everyone is carrying guns? Scum bags wait till you get close to take action (most likely an ambush), they are not going to try to rob you from 200 yards as they are not capable of identifying you as a victim at that distance. Of course, this applies to people living near other people (like most of us do).

If I had property to defend on acres of open ground, Id probably go 308 rather than 223 or x39 anyway. Someone trying to ram through your property gate would warrant a long-distance response.

But your multi-caliber reasoning is very sound, and may make an AR a very viable SHTF argument. Good point.

[MrM4]

Id agree with pretty much everything you said Desert dog, extra parts and regulare cleaning are a must for the M16 system, I personally have 1 I would bet my life on in a SHTF senario but I have others I wouldn't depend on enough to take to a combat class.
Interesting though about not having alot of distance shots, personally I say get as far from the population as you can in the given setting. If I can see them coming from a long distance and their intent is clear i dont want to have wait till they are 300 yard to engage.

my thoughts on the AR family might be alittle bias

This post has been edited by MrM4: 07 August 2009 - 11:00 PM

[rastamanila]

Jpanzer, on Jul 6 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Saiga 12 for in close, AK folder out to medium range, and my Mauser K98 if I need to reach out and touch someone....

I'd like to second this opinion except I have no access to a Mauser K98. I may get a M24 as a substitute but it has to be said I live near GHQ of both the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) and the Philippine National Police (PNP) and strangely in my country both entities view registered civilian firearms owners/reservists as allies rather than threats/adversaries.

[Krom]

As soon as the 5.45x39 saiga's hit the street I think they make a very good SHFT candidate. Mainly due to the fact that you can very easily stock pile a much larger quantiy of ammo (most of which is already sealed so it makes long term storage easy) for a much lower cost. And you would retain the lighter ammo/recoil also.

Personally I'd still take the .223 over it because there are good JHP/soft point ammo for hunting availible. (who wants to track a wounded animal all over the world in a SHTF situation? not me) But hornady is supposed to be producing v-max steel cased rounds in 5.45x39 soon. Plus the ability to share ammo w/ LE/MIL is important to me as I stated earlier.

My ~cents

[zenmetsu]

If I could only have one, it would be the Saiga-12. The reason is that shotguns are not so picky on the ammo. You can improvise and still have it function. In addition, some of the most plentiful game animals, rabbits and birds, are harder to hit with a rifle.

If I could have two... it would be Saiga-12 and AK-47. The reason is simple, the AK is accurate enough to tag big game out to a decent range and it can share parts with the Saiga-12. If you had to make cast parts, you could use the same die for both guns.

If I could have three guns, I would probably have a Saiga-12, an AK-47, and a .45 derringer. The handgun would be for times when I needed to keep a gun on my person without allowing others to know. You can fire 410 shotshells out of the .45 derringer, so you can have a devastating close-quarters weapon.

And who's to say that the "SHTF" situation will not be brought upon us by a zombie invasion? Using anything other than a shotgun against zombies is just WRONG.

[bohound]

This question is the EXACT reason I bought my Saiga in .223! Also, I know this is redundant, but I truly believe it's not a question of if TSHTF, but when.

Reason(s)?

Simple operation and maintenance, customization options, and availability of ammo due to "field requisition" (I love my hubby and all his devil dog buddies for coming up with that term!).

That said, the folks I'll be with have plenty of long guns and DMR types.

I think I'll stick with my Saiga, and in the company of Marine vets... Makes a girl feel nice and secure.

[cscharlie]

bohound, on Aug 24 2009, 07:02 AM, said:

This question is the EXACT reason I bought my Saiga in .223! Also, I know this is redundant, but I truly believe it's not a question of if TSHTF, but when.

Reason(s)?

Simple operation and maintenance, customization options, and availability of ammo due to "field requisition" (I love my hubby and all his devil dog buddies for coming up with that term!).

That said, the folks I'll be with have plenty of long guns and DMR types.

I think I'll stick with my Saiga, and in the company of Marine vets... Makes a girl feel nice and secure.

What barrel lenght did you go with on your S-223? 16", 20"?
And welcome to the forum.

[bohound]

cscharlie, on Aug 24 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

bohound, on Aug 24 2009, 07:02 AM, said:

This question is the EXACT reason I bought my Saiga in .223! Also, I know this is redundant, but I truly believe it's not a question of if TSHTF, but when.

Reason(s)?

Simple operation and maintenance, customization options, and availability of ammo due to "field requisition" (I love my hubby and all his devil dog buddies for coming up with that term!).

That said, the folks I'll be with have plenty of long guns and DMR types.

I think I'll stick with my Saiga, and in the company of Marine vets... Makes a girl feel nice and secure.

What barrel lenght did you go with on your S-223? 16", 20"?
And welcome to the forum.

16 of course... Gotta keep it compact to get around those corners quickly.

Let the professionals take the long shots, add to the equation up close and personal.

[RRice]

I know this is an "AK" board and I love my Saiga shotguns,but if I am picking up a rifle it is going to be my AR15.I have owned and shot a lot of AK-47/74's and there is no way I would consider one over my AR.It is dead ass reliable,accurate,mag changes are twice as fast an an AK, and it's quiet.

AK's are great guns.It is just a personal preference thing I suppose.

[Krom]

RRice, on Sep 5 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

I know this is an "AK" board and I love my Saiga shotguns,but if I am picking up a rifle it is going to be my AR15.I have owned and shot a lot of AK-47/74's and there is no way I would consider one over my AR.It is dead ass reliable,accurate,mag changes are twice as fast an an AK, and it's quiet.

AK's are great guns.It is just a personal preference thing I suppose.

Your AR must have a can on it if it's quiet..?

[RRice]

Krom, on Sep 7 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

RRice, on Sep 5 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

I know this is an "AK" board and I love my Saiga shotguns,but if I am picking up a rifle it is going to be my AR15.I have owned and shot a lot of AK-47/74's and there is no way I would consider one over my AR.It is dead ass reliable,accurate,mag changes are twice as fast an an AK, and it's quiet.

AK's are great guns.It is just a personal preference thing I suppose.

Your AR must have a can on it if it's quiet..?

I have an AAC SPR M4.Definitely doesn't require hearing protection.

This post has been edited by RRice: 07 September 2009 - 06:54 PM

[dngrspot]

RRice, on Sep 5 2009, 08:25 PM, said:

I know this is an "AK" board and I love my Saiga shotguns,but if I am picking up a rifle it is going to be my AR15.I have owned and shot a lot of AK-47/74's and there is no way I would consider one over my AR.It is dead ass reliable,accurate,mag changes are twice as fast an an AK, and it's quiet.

AK's are great guns.It is just a personal preference thing I suppose.

Go do some SERIOUS playing in the dirt and sand, and then tell me that an AR is a reliable weapon. I hated the M-16's and M-4's that I used in the military. You get a little bit of crap in them, and the whole weapon shits out on you.

Yeah, an AR beats an AK in accuracy. Take a look at the battlefields of today. URBAN. Range to enemey is 100 - 200 yards tops normally. At those ranges, what does it matter if you can put 3 rounds in 1 inch, and I can put 3 in 2 inches. My 7.62mm round is gonna stop what I am shooting at in one shot, can you say the same thing about your .22 on roids?

Case in point: In Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down situation) there were accounts of machine gunners with M-249's (belt fed .223's) HITTING their target with 3 to 4 bursts from the MG, and the mofo's would get back up after taking each burst, and keep on going. Did I mention that the bursts are 5 to 7 rounds each?

Now, some of the Delta boys were running M-14's. Good, solid 7.62mm Nato rounds. Those guys were dropping their targets with one shot.

Your call though. As for me, I will take the AK, a rifle that will take the worst abuse that I can throw at it and ask me for more.

[RRice]

dngrspot, on Sep 7 2009, 10:34 PM, said:

RRice, on Sep 5 2009, 08:25 PM, said:

I know this is an "AK" board and I love my Saiga shotguns,but if I am picking up a rifle it is going to be my AR15.I have owned and shot a lot of AK-47/74's and there is no way I would consider one over my AR.It is dead ass reliable,accurate,mag changes are twice as fast an an AK, and it's quiet.

AK's are great guns.It is just a personal preference thing I suppose.

Go do some SERIOUS playing in the dirt and sand, and then tell me that an AR is a reliable weapon. I hated the M-16's and M-4's that I used in the military. You get a little bit of crap in them, and the whole weapon shits out on you.

Yeah, an AR beats an AK in accuracy. Take a look at the battlefields of today. URBAN. Range to enemey is 100 - 200 yards tops normally. At those ranges, what does it matter if you can put 3 rounds in 1 inch, and I can put 3 in 2 inches. My 7.62mm round is gonna stop what I am shooting at in one shot, can you say the same thing about your .22 on roids?

Case in point: In Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down situation) there were accounts of machine gunners with M-249's (belt fed .223's) HITTING their target with 3 to 4 bursts from the MG, and the mofo's would get back up after taking each burst, and keep on going. Did I mention that the bursts are 5 to 7 rounds each?

Now, some of the Delta boys were running M-14's. Good, solid 7.62mm Nato rounds. Those guys were dropping their targets with one shot.

Your call though. As for me, I will take the AK, a rifle that will take the worst abuse that I can throw at it and ask me for more.

I never disputed the AK's reliability.My post simply stated that I will take MY AR15 and I stated the reasons.I have had AK's take a crap on me(one was a Krebs AK103 none-the-less).I know how to maintain the rifle and am proficient with it.

With that said,I will shed some light on what you are stating happened in Mogadishu.The targets were 90lb Somalis being shot with steel core M855.My understanding is that the round wasn't fragmenting and was punching ice pick sized holes in the said Somalis.Fortunately,I am not limited to steel core machine gun ammo and with rounds like 5.56 Hornady TAP and MK262, dropping someone shouldn't be an issue.

I also agree that you're probably not going to have to make a shot further than 300 yards.Lets be honest,can you make a shot at ,lets say, 250 yards on an IDPA target with your AK?Assuming you're using WOLF I feel it is safe to say that 4moa is as good as it is going to get.You may be able to do it.I am just curious.

So,use your AK.Nothing at all wrong with that.They're great guns.I am still thinking about buying an AK105 clone and won't for a second dispute that AK's are great guns.However,I will stick with my AR.

This post has been edited by RRice: 08 September 2009 - 03:38 PM

[Arik]

I'd take an Updgraded Yugo SKS

Reliable, plenty of ammo, can take mags, a little more accurate than the AK, plenty of aftermarket parts like mags and folding stocks to make it more compact. Can add side rails for scopes and iron sights if need be can shoot granades (allthough I have no clue as to where I would get them ) Overall a nice, reliable, proven, platform that has lots of promise.

If I cant choose that (by the options on this poll) Than I'd take the Yugo AK underfolder for muct the same reasons. Ammo, mags, reliability, a little better accuracy, lots of upgrade options, compact when folded, original AKs were issued with a screw on nade launcher attachment so one off of an SKS would prolly work....etc...etc...

my 0.00002 cents

This post has been edited by Arik: 11 September 2009 - 09:43 PM

[Krom]

I shot this group from 100yds this weekend with a saiga .223

Five shot groups:
-1 o'clock 2rds group 62gr (Prvi) reloads (my first!)
-5 o'clock 5rds remmington .223 55gr M193
-7 o'clock 5rds remmington .223 55gr M193
-11 o'clock 5rds Federal tactical 5.56x45 55gr M193
-center, 5rds Federal tactical 5.56x45 55gr M193 (2MOA!)

Plenty accurate I think :-D

Attached File(s)

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[WaffenSchmied]

A really fine 1911 .45 auto, a well built tactical S12, a Mauser 8mm (the first gun my dad taught me to shoot with), 20,000 rounds of ammo for each, free passage to the family compound deep in Kentucky hill country, a 400 hp 4WD pickup (with plenty of fuel) a John Deer Gator, and a true country girl who looks like Anne Hathaway, cooks like Paula Deen, and shoots like Annie Oakley. And if you come callin' you better be kin...

WS

[Jim Digriz]

desert dog, on 03 June 2009 - 11:00 AM, said:

* More durable sights, that are quicker in close range fights than AR style aperture sights.

Why do you say this? I find the notch sight painfully slow. By the time I relocate the front post in the notch after the shot recoil, I could have made at least one more shot with the aperture sights. I put Tech Sights on my Ruger 10/22, which also came with a notch sight, and found both my accuracy and my speed greatly improved. The experience sold me on the aperture sights, and last week I put the AK Tech Sights on the Saiga x39.

[aresv]

Depends on what kind of shit is hitting what kind of fan.

* If it's a natural disaster and I'm staying at home defending against looters, I'd pick a Saiga 12.
* If on the other hand if there's a war/invasion/revolution/insurrection where I may be facing actual combatants rather than hoodlums, I'll take an AK in 7.62x39.

[rastamanila]

Well SHasHTF in my case and I have the S-12. Buying more shells this Saturday...

[Arik]

rastamanila, on 29 September 2009 - 03:26 PM, said:

Well SHasHTF in my case and I have the S-12. Buying more shells this Saturday...

Sorry to hear about flooding in the Philippines. Good luck to you, stay safe.

[volkov]

Heh, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this one

AK-47.. Where I live the range of the saiga-12 isn't sufficient, and the range of an AR is a bit more then I need, so I'd prefer to stick with reliability and penetration of the AK, plus I prefer the ammo capacity of the AK to the saiga-12. However, if I was in a squad situation (which is likely, given my collection and my friends with their own) I'd have no problem using either the AR and taking advantage of it's range when possible, or using the Saiga-12 as long as I had cover from AK-47/AR-15. Most of my friends have AR-15s, which is good, because I feel the disadvantages of it compared to the AK are minimized, provided you have buddies to back you up in case of a jam.

What I'm tryng to say is, if it's me alone, I want the AK.. I want to wade through a creek (I live on a penisula with a river one one side, and two large creeks on the other sides of my neighborhood) and get out on the other side knowing my guns going to function, and the range is sufficient. Ammo isn't a problem for any of my weapons, I have a nice stockpile (I keep at least 1000 rounds per gun I own).

But if it's me with some buddies, I'm a bit happier to use the AR and take advantage of it's range, knowing that should my gun go click instead of boom, or the enemy goes into cover I've got backup. Likewise in a defensive situation I'm fine with using the Saiga-12. In close range combined with a pistol should you run out of ammo it's my most effective option, and as long as someone has an AK or an AR to cover me with should a longer range threat present itself.. I'm fine.

One of the big factors to consider though in defending yourself is what your potential enemy would have.. In charleston the poorer more urban people tend to use .38 revolvers or 9mm compacts, but the vast majority out here are your typical hunters with bolt action rifles and semi auto shotguns (non magazine fed obviously) with a good ammount of AR-15s thrown. At gun shows I tend to see 300 ARs vs 50ish AK/Saigas, and semi auto snipers are in short supply (dragunovs especially are very rare around here from what I can tell)
Given that, I really don't want to be stuck with only a saiga-12 and a pistol, given that it would essentially only put me on even ground at close range, and at an extreme disadvantage against a large portion of firearms.

So by myself.. yeah I want an AK.. I want good range, and good penetration power to give me an edge, and my local area has plenty of places where I wouldn't feel I could easily be outranged.

Realistically though, it would likely be me, my brother with his PSL, my friends with ARs/bolt action rifles, and enough handguns to go around a few times over, so if it was fortified there is only one entrance (since the neighborhoods a peninsula), and covering it with the AK may be preferable. (I'd stick to the AK over an AR just because I personally keep more ammo then most people, and all my friends with AR's are likely to eat through ammo like crazy, so I'd be better off using the 7.62, otherwise I'd take the AR in this situation.)

It really comes down to how much ammo you have, how much your buddies have, what they are going to be using, your enviorment, and what your going to be facing. Mine was pretty easy because my location is more or less set by my house and the huge ammount of food I can get from the creek with minimal effort.

My decision would be much different on a farm for example.

[GerryV]

Whatever weapon you choose, there's little point in selecting one based upon the criteria that it is common to LE or the military. In SHTF scenario, you will not be able to get any ammo from them unless you forcibly take it or scavenge it off of the fallen. The way things are today, they'll more than likely try to disarm you like what occurred in New Orleans during Katrina.

[MT Predator]

I'm going with the AR platform as I have developed muscle memory on its operation through 20+ years in the military. I can guarantee I can run one faster than an AK even if I have to clear a malfunction. If it really goes tits up, I can transition to pistol which I prefer a Glock. As much as I love my 1911s, my Glocks have no external safeties to dick around with and they go bang every time the trigger is pulled. I'd still keep my AKs and S-12 close for certain situations and they are damn reliable. (I carried a "Liberated" Polish underfolder as a backup weapon in Baghdad in 03 as I was humping a beltfed). As I read this thread, I see comments on how an AK will penetrate cars and such better. I can tell you first hand, M855 through an AR will penetrate more than the standard 7.62x39mm hardball ammo.

[Corbin]

Just my thoughts....

As has been stated by others before me, it really depends on the situation. Shotguns are the king of close range, and 30 cal rifles really dominate at extended ranges. 556 ARs can be accurate and lightweight, so long as you give them regular cleaning to keep them running well.

While I wouldn't rely on outside availability of any ammo in a SHTF scenario, if I had to choose which ammo I see the most out here in rural MI, it's 12 ga and 22LR. 223 and 7.62 x 39 are available, but not like those. Notice I said 223 and not 5.56. Most places around here don't carry 5.56 ammo. I suppose the difference is acedemic in a survival situation, so long as it works. That's a topic for another thread though.

Having said that, if I could only have one firearm from those listed, and I could have at least 1,000 rounds stockpiled, I'd probably have an AK. I don't really care for the full auto function in a survival situation, unless it's at close range, in which case, it's great. Other than that, full auto wastes ammo really quickly IMHO.

A 12 ga shotgun would be my secondary weapon, if I could have more than one. It's great for defense and devestating at close range. It can utilize dozens of different types of rounds, depending on your need. As said, if you're able to secure ammo somewhere around here, the 12 ga would likely be one of the types available.


+1 for a 22LR, for reasons mentioned by others and the availability and lightweight of the ammo. I like the Ruger 10/22, but so long as it's reliable and able to be repaired if necessary, most any 22LR will do. I suppose the AR with a 22 LR conversion would be handy for game hunting, and would be lighter to carry than a completely different weapon. In that respect, the AR would have an advantage of being 22LR convertable.


Another +1 for a CCW type pistol, for concealed carry if needing to remain low key somewhere, yet still be protected. I'll let others debate on caliber and pistol type.


Obviously, having everything with as much ammo as I could ever use would be ideal, but realistically, I'm not going to have an armored compound with auto-tracking miniguns and an NBC proof unground bunker, with 2 years worth of supplies, an arsenal of every weapon type I could ever want and an army to defend it. Not sure I'd have that even if I could afford it. I suppose it would be cool though. LOL Getting visions from Fallout 3.....


Anyway...... This is just the view from my soapbox. Your view may not be the same. That's ok though.



Corbin

[MT Predator]

I see you say .22, 12 ga, .223, and 7.62x39mm are most common in rural areas. Not so sure about 7.62x39mm but 30-06 is VERY common just about everywhere. Might have to break out the Garand in certain instances if ammo is unobtainable.

[Diamondback]

Ah, but not all .30-06 is equal--as I recall, the Garand requires a weak load by modern standards; more recent .30-06 is a good bit hotter than you'd wanna put through the old warhorse unless you're shooting one of the newer clones.

[waite]

If the SHTF I would most likely be at home or close to it, so S-12 for sure. Otherwise I'd use my YUGO M70.