Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 After coming to the conclusion that my S12 was under gassed I was trying to figure out a way to tell what size gas ports I currently have. Someone else may have come up with a way to tell how big the ports are without taking the gas block off but I haven't seen it and I thought I would share how I did it. I had some 14 gauge and 12 gauge romex copper wire in the garage that I stripped, I put a digital caliper on both and determined that the 14 gauge was .062" and the 12 gauge was .077" . I bent both and tried to get them in the gas ports, the 14 gauge went in well and had just a little play but the 12 gauge wouldn't go in at all. I read on another post that a lot of guns were coming with .070" ports and the specs for a 19" 3 port gun were .093". So I kinda figured I had an .070" gun and with the help of JeffD's post here http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=33836 I removed the gas block with the help of a friend. We were both shocked at how easy it came off! Once the gas block was off it was obvious that the holes were to small so we drilled them out to .093" with a 3/32 bit. It went so well that we checked his S12 that had been sent off to have the ports opened under warranty and sure enough those holes were to small and once we got the gas block off his gun we determined that they weren't even drilled at the proper angle. Two of the ports were almost perpendicular to the barrel. Now the 12 gauge wire goes in the port with a little play. Hopefully this fixes the problem, I have polished every surface of my S12 and the gun still stovepipes on average once a magazine. It doesn't matter if I am shooting birdshot or buck, the factory 5 round mag or any of the other mags I have. Even when it does eject it isn't consistent and the cases just barely make it out of the gun. Here is hoping! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 Be sure to come back and give a report after testing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 Will do! We were shooting yesterday next to Raoul_duke and his 8" Tromix. That thing was flat out mean but it was so reliable that it gives us hope. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 I just opened up my 3 ports last night also to 3/32", and to check my port's before I took my gas block off. I took some cheap drill bits and broke the smooth side off the bit off and used needle nose pliers to test them in the port's all 3 port's were a different size. Mine would FTE here and there with the federal's and it just bothered the shit out of me. I will also give a range report here if you do'nt mind? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 I just opened up my 3 ports last night also to 3/32", and to check my port's before I took my gas block off. I took some cheap drill bits and broke the smooth side off the bit off and used needle nose pliers to test them in the port's all 3 port's were a different size. Mine would FTE here and there with the federal's and it just bothered the shit out of me. I will also give a range report here if you do'nt mind? Havok, Great please give a range report! I have done everything to my S12 short of grinding the bottom of the bolt. The hammer is shaped and polished, the bottom of the bolt is polished but not shaped, the bottom of the bolt carrier is shaped and polished, and the rails are polished. Nothing has really improved the performance from stock so I am really looking forward to shooting it tomorrow. The gun hand cycles very smoothly but when I run Federal bulk through it it just doesn't throw the cases that far and they are very inconsistent. It also stovepipes about one round per mag unless I am shooting the drum and then it is 3 or 4 per drum. I hope this fixes it, I am fast running out of options short of letting a pro go through it. Wasn't taking the gas block off a breeze? We hit the shelf bracket about three solid hits and the thing just fell off, gotta love those Russian tolerances! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cb8180 2 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I just did today the same thing. Took about 30 minutes including deburring the inside of the barrel. My ports were definately undersized (according to Vankiller). I swear, I will get this Russian bitch to run! The concept is just too cool. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I just did today the same thing. Took about 30 minutes including deburring the inside of the barrel. My ports were definately undersized (according to Vankiller). I swear, I will get this Russian bitch to run! The concept is just too cool. My thoughts exactly, my favorite gun to shoot when it works, when it doesn't I want to roll over it with my truck. I have several friends who want to get an S12 but all are waiting until I get my running before they jump in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
triharder72 1 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Did anyone else bend several punches trying to remove the top pin? Still havent gotten it out yet. Am I missing something? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Did anyone else bend several punches trying to remove the top pin? Still havent gotten it out yet. Am I missing something? I hosed the whole gas block inside and out with WD-40, let it sit for about 20 minutes and the pins came out with minimal effort. We did my buddies the same way with the same result, course these are made in Russia so QC isn't top priority. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Did anyone else bend several punches trying to remove the top pin? Still havent gotten it out yet. Am I missing something? If you are using the small little punch that comes in the AK tools/cleaning tube, that one is too small and will bend. Get a decent punch from the hardware store and the pins will pop right out. Also, drive the pin out from the opposite side that it looks like it was driven in from. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Did anyone else bend several punches trying to remove the top pin? Still havent gotten it out yet. Am I missing something? If you are using the small little punch that comes in the AK tools/cleaning tube, that one is too small and will bend. Get a decent punch from the hardware store and the pins will pop right out. Also, drive the pin out from the opposite side that it looks like it was driven in from. +1. I just assumed he was using a good 1/16 or 3/32 steel punch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
triharder72 1 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 I thought I WAS using a good punch. Stanley brand, which was good once upon a time. Bought a solid punch a HD, then drove it the rest of the way out. The gas block moved nicely from there. Next issue, was that I couldnt get the thread protector off. Stuck a 1x2 in the mag well for leverage and 'rastled with the wrench. Ended up rounding off the corners of the thread protector and when I muscled it, it actually deformed the thread protector AND barrel . . . atleast I dont recall it being oval before I started. Banged on it bit with a hammer to get it close to round, then cut the TP off with a dremel. Everything from there went fine. Hope I can get it back to round by screwing on a muzzle device. Just so you dont think I am a gunsmithing newborn, I have fluffed and buffed keltecs, shaved an RIA and installed a beavertail, done a sweet crisp trigger job on a R700, polished the throats of glocks and made a CAI cetme into a real firing gun. I am no Cobra, but never figured to have this much trouble with a gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ErikTaylor 41 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Hey fellas, I just tried doing mine but it is on there! I can't get the gas block off! It's going to have to wait until tomorrow, the wife is getting antsy! I'll keep you updated! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Hey fellas, I just tried doing mine but it is on there! I can't get the gas block off! It's going to have to wait until tomorrow, the wife is getting antsy! I'll keep you updated! Some guys seem to have no issues on getting the gas block off, mine was on there very tight too. Part of my problem was not using heavy enough tools for the job though. At first I was trying to get the block off with a regular claw hammer and a block of wood..... no way. Then I went and bought a 3 pound hammer and a brass door hinge.... that was the right combo. It was still a fight to get the block off, but then again, I gave it no choice. Triharder, if you bought your gun new with all of the parts in the box, it came with a wrench to remove the thread protector it slips over the flats on the TP and it should come right off that way. Maybe yours was seized on there somehow...... hopefully no permanent damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ErikTaylor 41 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Well I told the wife to kiss my ass and I'm going to try it again. I found the shelf support as described and ended up breaking it. I guess I'll have to go to Home Depot tomorrow and find something heavy duty. The back of the gas block is pretty scratched now, but they go under the HG so I'm not worried about it. One day I will duracoat it or something. Mine is on there like a mo fo. So what kind of door hinge did you get? I have a heavy hammer. I have been using a mouse pad as support, but maybe that absorbs some of the "punch" in the hits? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 The hinge I bought looks just like this one. Looked for a brass drift/punch for pounding on steel parts without marring them, but the store didn't have one. Then I wandered around for a few minutes looking for something else to use and found the brass door hinge for $1.49. It worked out nice, I was able to hold on to the hinge plates as a handle and position the hinge pin right on the edge of the gas block. When I started whacking away with the heavy hammer I knew it was going to work by the way the house was shaking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ErikTaylor 41 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 I have some of those I believe. They are about 2 inches long? Or are the ones you used bigger? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 It's a 3 1/2" hinge, pretty heavy duty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Hey fellas, I just tried doing mine but it is on there! I can't get the gas block off! It's going to have to wait until tomorrow, the wife is getting antsy! I'll keep you updated! Some guys seem to have no issues on getting the gas block off, mine was on there very tight too. Part of my problem was not using heavy enough tools for the job though. At first I was trying to get the block off with a regular claw hammer and a block of wood..... no way. Then I went and bought a 3 pound hammer and a brass door hinge.... that was the right combo. It was still a fight to get the block off, but then again, I gave it no choice. Triharder, if you bought your gun new with all of the parts in the box, it came with a wrench to remove the thread protector it slips over the flats on the TP and it should come right off that way. Maybe yours was seized on there somehow...... hopefully no permanent damage. Guys, Those brass hinges and brass hinge pins are brass plated steel at best. I am a contractor and I have never seen true brass hinges at any box store. True brass hinges at a specialty door and cabinet store cost a fortune. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Okay Range report! F**K, the very first round stove-piped, and then the second, third all out of the factory 5 round mag. I was shooting Federal 2 3/4, 7 1/2 shot, 3 Dram value pack. I ran all my magazines 2-10 round AGPs, 8 round Surefire, and MD Arms 20 round drum. For some reason the drum worked the most consistent, in the past it was the worst performer. That is the downside, the upside is when it did eject it threw the shells much farther (4-5ft.) and in a consistent direction, forward about 45 degrees to the gun. Much better than before so the widen gas ports really helped. So just make the ports bigger and it should solve everything right? After thinking about this and looking at a Tromix gun I have a theory. I think that when the bolt carrier cycles, the rear knuckle on the bolt strikes the hammer and upsets the rearward path of the spent case enough that it comes loose of the ejector and stovepipes. The pic below is what I am talking about, on a Tromix gun this face and the numbers stamped on it is completely ground down. Look closely it is highlighted in red. I can't see any reason to grind this surface to help with loading on a closed bolt, because when the bolt is fully closed this surface rotates to the right and down, a mag or shell would never make contact with it. However when the bolt cycles back this surface strikes the top of the hammer just prior to the shell being ejected. In my gun this contact forces the bolt and bolt carrier to move up and to the right which I believe upsets the timing of the ejection process. Any thoughts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cb8180 2 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Ninerrider that sucks to hear. I'm leaving for the range in a little while to try my port-enlargement project. Will report back ASAP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) Guys, Those brass hinges and brass hinge pins are brass plated steel at best. I am a contractor and I have never seen true brass hinges at any box store. True brass hinges at a specialty door and cabinet store cost a fortune. Yeah, I considered that when I was looking at them in the store...... then I said f*ck it....... took it home and got the job done. All it did was knock a little paint off the gas block, no problem at all. Edit: BTW, I agree with you that just increasing the gas is not the solution to every problem on these guns. Anything that can be done to smooth out the action is good and will help ejection. Best of luck! Edited March 1, 2010 by Spartacus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Ninerrider that sucks to hear. I'm leaving for the range in a little while to try my port-enlargement project. Will report back ASAP. Best of luck I want to hear some positive news on somebody's gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Okay so the pics below are after I ground down and polished the bolt, the pictures aren't that great. It's kinda hard to get the focus right on a real shiny surface. I also ground down and polished the top of the hammer a little more trying to reduce the deck height a little. After all this the gun hand cycles really smoothly, now at this point I have no clue if this will make any difference Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Just a heads up, if you go too crazy on removing metal from the hammer & or underside of the carrier, the hammer will not be pushed down enough to re-cock reliably. Just don't get too carried away. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Just a heads up, if you go too crazy on removing metal from the hammer & or underside of the carrier, the hammer will not be pushed down enough to re-cock reliably. Just don't get too carried away. Got it, the bottom of the bolt carrier actually does all the hammer resetting but I guess you could grind down the bolt carrier and hammer too much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cb8180 2 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Looks like I done good. Just got back-here are the results: Setting 2, MD-20--25 Fed bulk pack zero FTE, 25 Rem bulk pack three FTE (I can live with that and just shoot Fed from now on. 25 Winchester game loads, 3.25 dram 1 ounce shot zero FTE. The empties were tossed about 3 feet. Setting 1, MD-20--fifteen Winchester one ounce slugs zero FTE, 10 Rem 00 buck zero FTE, 25 Winchester AA super handicap 1 1/8 ounce shot zero FTE. Empties tossed between five and ten feet. Factory mag and 8 round Surefire also functioned perfectly. Boy, did those slugs rattle my teeth! Also gave me some trigger slap! All in all, I'm very pleased with my gun now. Was about to give up after all the polishing didn't help. It seems, for my gun at least, that 3/32 gas ports were the ticket! By the way, this was all with the MD-20 at three turns on the spring. Yahoooo! Now that the guns are clean, I fully intend to celebrate in style. Beer chilling, cooking some rice dressing (tons of cayenne pepper, yeah!). To all struggling with their guns, keep the faith, and keep trying! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ErikTaylor 41 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Mines a 4 port barrel. Is 0.93 still correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ErikTaylor 41 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 All 4 of the holes are different sizes... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 Mines a 4 port barrel. Is 0.93 still correct? I would think .093 should be fine for a 4 port gun. I guess it depends on how close the holes are to begin with. If the 4 holes are close, then .093 may be enough to make it one giant hole. I almost did that myself on my 3 port gun, up-sized the ports to 3/32 (.093 I think) then decided to go another size up to 7/64. If I went any further, it would have turned into one hole. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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