7.62x39 vs 5.45x39 for say 250 yard shots..

[paprotective 362]

I own both the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 of these models in 16".

 

I have a 4x32 scope on the 5.45, and I just ordered up what I was thinking a replacement in 6x32 format.

 

Now the thought came up that the .30 cal (aka 7.62x39) may be better (more punch) out to the 250 yard mark.

 

Would I be better served by putting the new 6x scope on the 7.62??

 

Can I expect better accuracy/consistency from the 7.62 (only Wolf MC 124HP) at this range vs. the 5.45 round??

 

What one would 'hold' if I decided to o'casionally push out to 300 yards (taking into the wind and drop)??

 

Should I do the 4x on the 7.62 and put the 6x on the 5.45??

 

Any experiance with this distance ?? with these 2 rifles and this type/power of scopes??

[rob-cubed 74]

My range only goes out to 100 yards so I don't get a chance to shoot distance that often.

 

But, 5.45 a flatter trajectory and will be more accurate in my experience. 7.62 will hit harder, but it drops pretty quickly over long distances.

 

If you are looking for accuracy, Wolf is pretty bad. It's nice and dependable, but not target ammo. Try some of the mildly corrosive Yugo which is about the best I've used.

[paprotective 362]

rob-cubed..

 

I'm running the Yugo in the 5.45 and agree its pretty flat. I got 4xx rounds of the Wolf MC 124HP in 7.62x39 here.

 

The range here goes to 225 or 250 so intend to TRY all of it.. I am going for less than 3 1/2" groups

 

Got a 4 shot 100 yard group at 1 1/2" with my 5.45 and had people going WOW last weekend..

 

 

 

[jimdigriz 580]

Now the thought came up that the .30 cal (aka 7.62x39) may be better (more punch) out to the 250 yard mark.

 

Would I be better served by putting the new 6x scope on the 7.62??

 

Can I expect better accuracy/consistency from the 7.62 (only Wolf MC 124HP) at this range vs. the 5.45 round??

 

Whether the 7.62x39 would hit harder at that distance is hard to say. East German tests on convicts at 300 yards showed a higher lethality rate with the 5.45x39. The nice thing about 5.45 is that its terminal performance is pretty consistent at all ranges; the primary wounding mechanism (tumbling) does not depend on short distances and high velocity.

 

As for accuracy, I'd expect that the 5.45 would be superior to the 7.62x39 at all distances. Also, I've noticed that the accuracy of the 7.62 degrades more noticeably than the 5.45 as the barrel heats up.

 

Jim

Edited March 9, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Ruffian72 548]

Just never fiqured an AK carbine platform was a weapon for over 100 to 150 yards. So, if you don't get consistant groups at 250, it's not the scope. Do know the better models can do, with the shooter knowing the weapons consistancies with quality ammo. You got a good weapon with groups stated. If it does what you want/expect be damn happy. Just don't get frustrated if it doesn't.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Ruffian72

[jimdigriz 580]

Just never fiqured an AK carbine platform was a weapon for over 100 to 150 yards. So, if you don't get consistant groups at 250, it's not the scope.

 

It could be the shooter!

 

I've been amazed at how much accuracy can be wrung from Saiga AKs.

[Ruffian72 548]

Jim Digriz, You are right. Just some very frustrated shooters who want perfomance a weapon wasn't designed for. Even the Ruskies Drago, wasn't figured to be accurate or have range as our sniper weapons at platoon level, just good enough to hit what was out of range of AK's. Seen some of those outshoot there percieved range/accuracy. Rugged, dependable, close range. So if you get a shooter, be damn happy, not frustrated if it doesn't.

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim Digriz, You are right. Just some very frustrated shooters who want perfomance a weapon wasn't designed for.

 

Nobody is asking for 3 inch groups at 250 yards. I'll be satisfied if, in a pinch, I can hit a man-size target out to 300 yards with my AK. That is very doable. Besides, how many rifles can you carry at one time? "Oh, now I have a long range target; let me switch to the M14 I have in my back pocket..."

[Ruffian72 548]

He stated he was wanting 3" groups at 250 yards. Not man size. Just mentioned be happy if it happens. I'm happy to hit man sized targets at 300 yards with a AK carbine. Saw he was using Wolf ammo in 7.62X39, so I believed he might be using same quality in 5.45. Just seen so many posts what's wrong when it doesn't happen or at shop, weapon is crap. No, you are wanting hunting accuracy from a carbine.

[jimdigriz 580]

He stated he was wanting 3" groups at 250 yards.

 

Oops. Well, I didn't take that seriously, given all the rolling-on-the-floor guys in that sentence...

[Ruffian72 548]

Let's just hope for the best. Makes the AK naysayers something to shake heads about. Love at training sessions, when my AK gets hundreds of rounds fired and never fails. Then you see the AR's fouling, especially in crappy weather. Never be used that much in the feild, yet good to know it wont be a problem. :smoke:P.S. I'm just the grumpy, old, bastard, not into tactical cool. Amazing how many youngins quietly ask questions after session. Small, rural dept. Supply our own weapons. Not big city issue weapons, who watch to many movies.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Ruffian72

[paprotective 362]

Thanks Jim and Ruffian...

 

I am SHOOTING for 3" groups at 200 yards or so..

(shoot for the stars land in the clouds theory, aka positive thinking)

 

If I group over 3" I'm not going to cry.. If I go over 6" I may be crying though.

 

I think with a steady hand and my trusty Caldwell 'bag' rest I should be good..

 

Going to be a on the 27th when I go back as I got crap to do the next 2 Saturdays..

 

Some AR guys were there shooting at 100 yards and there 'pretty' equipment..

 

I just want to see what I can 'ring out' of these bad-girls...

 

Anyone else try to get to 250-300 yards with there 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 ??

[FluffRat 1]

If the x39 shoots better than 3MOA (6" @ 200yd.) with Wolf then yay, but they only claim 4MOA as I recall.

[Ruffian72 548]

YWHIC, good to see high hopes, yet realistic. Just we see so many that expect more than weapon designed for, with basic ammo. It's always good to know your weapons limits. And yours. Had days that my weapon had more potential than I was able to utilize, then days made shots that god only knows why. P.S. Dang fun though.

[sh00ter 4]

i got my saiga specifically for sub 300m ranges, however, whilst shooting on an extended military range over here (up to 1100m drop when hit targets) i was consistently knocking down 700m targets with wolf ammo - admittedly very windy so i was aiming at the 3rd cloud on the left kinda thing - either way i was reminded that 99% of the time i am the weak link not the rifle

[paprotective 362]

Fluff.. I'm guessing you mean the 7.62x39 with Wolf ammo in regards to your MOA post..?

 

I'm going for the smaller group over caliber selection..

 

Haven't SCOPED my 7.62x39 yet (other than the non-magnified RD).. I may put the 4x on it and see how it fairs at the 100 yard mark.

 

Going to do the 6x scope on the 5.45x39 as concensus thus far is it (the round) shoots FLATTER.. And I know how that does at 100 yards already..

 

If I can get less than 3" with the 7.62 w/4x then maybe I will push that out to 200 yards also..

 

I wan't some consistency though. The 5.45 I shot EVERY group less than 2 1/2" with 6+ shots each.

 

I like GROUPS but 3 shots aren't a group, thats a TRIO.. 4 or more is a group IMHO. (ever notice the 4th shot jumps over and then you cuss)

 

From what I hear the ARMY basic training course is/was 250 yards onto a Silohette for basic qual..

 

I'm trying to do head (zombie) shots at 200+.

 

Everyoone should push there Saiga abit here IMHO.. You'd be surprised folks..

 

 

[jrmock 7]

Thanks Jim and Ruffian...

 

I am SHOOTING for 3" groups at 200 yards or so..

(shoot for the stars land in the clouds theory, aka positive thinking)

 

If I group over 3" I'm not going to cry.. If I go over 6" I may be crying though.

 

I think with a steady hand and my trusty Caldwell 'bag' rest I should be good..

 

Going to be a on the 27th when I go back as I got crap to do the next 2 Saturdays..

 

Some AR guys were there shooting at 100 yards and there 'pretty' equipment..

 

I just want to see what I can 'ring out' of these bad-girls...

 

Anyone else try to get to 250-300 yards with there 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 ??

 

 

I posted a week or two ago about my rifle's accuracy. With a 4.5X scope, I zeroed my 7.62x39 Saiga to be ~3 inches high at 100 yards (200 yard zero). The best group I got was about an inch across. Then I moved over to 200 yards. It grouped about 3.5-4 inches. Finally I shot at 300 yards. The drop from 200 to 300 is about 15 inches with a 200 yard zero. It was harder to shoot groups so I estimated it to be about 7-8 inches. Of course all of this was done fully rested on a bag with a scope. Weather conditions were nice too. So my rifle is EASILY capable of hitting a man-sized target at 300 yards if the operator can do his part. Past that, the bullet drop starts getting crazy.

 

jrmock

[paprotective 362]

jmrock..

 

I figured 200 max for the 47 (30 cal) and 250-300 max for the 74 (aka 5.45).

[jrmock 7]

jmrock..

 

I figured 200 max for the 47 (30 cal) and 250-300 max for the 74 (aka 5.45).

 

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift

0 2300 -2.8 0 0 1445 0

50 2138 1.08 1 0.07 1248 0

100 1988 3.05 3.91 0.14 1079 0

150 1844 2.81 9.03 0.22 929 0

200 1708 0 16.71 0.31 797 0

250 1580 -5.8 27.39 0.4 682 0

300 1462 -15.09 41.56 0.5 584 0

350 1354 -28.46 59.81 0.6 501 0

400 1259 -46.57 82.8 0.72 433 0

450 1177 -70.17 111.28 0.84 378 0

500 1110 -100.04 146.02 0.97 337 0

 

Here is the ballistic table for a 7.62x39 round (123gr) with a 200 yard zero. From the muzzle to 200 yards it has about 6 inches of vertical travel. That means if you aim right at something it will hit within 6 inches. Then you have to add in the inaccuracy. Say it is 2 MOA. That would mean a vertical travel of 10 inches out to 200 yards. So for man sized targets it is pretty much point and shoot.

 

The 5.45 and 0.223 round are similar in that they are so fast they don't drop much. So if you have a 200 yard zero you only have about 3-4 inches of vertical travel. Then past 200 the drop is less dramatic. So if you won't to do a lot of long range shooting, it will be 'easier' with the flatter shooting rounds.

 

I like using low power variable scopes (1-4X). This lets you turn it down to do some close shooting and then turn it up to help with the long shooting. 4X is plenty magnification out to 300 yards for man-sized targets. A fixed 6X is going to seriously limit any close shooting capability (field of view will stink). You definitely won't be able to hit anything close AND moving with 6X.

 

jrmock

[paprotective 362]

So the 5.45 is similar to the .223 round.. I was looking for a 5.45 Traj/Drop/Ballis chart for it and can't find any.

 

I'll dredge up some 223 ballistic charts and see what type fo drop I'd have.

 

I had ordered a 6x32 scope for TARGETs on paper and if I want to do head-shots on the paper.

 

The scope I bought has a 'kinda-BDC' built in, but until I can RANGE it and see what falls where and at what distance I'll be visually guessing the DROP.

 

On the 7.62x39 I can push 3" up/down and go from 100 to 200 yards. About the same as my MN 91/30 then.

 

Should be in by Saturday I'm hoping and if I'm up for it (and weather permits) I will be heading out Sunday.

 

Prefer to RANGE in both at 100 yards and then up/down the drop's. (got a mil-dot on the top half of the scope lense also).

 

 

[paprotective 362]

Ok. Dug up the Rem .223/.222 charts. (some say 222 is closer to 5.45). Found 52/53 FMJ ammo pushing 3000 fps..

 

+1.4" @ 100 0 @ 200 Yards -7.3 @300 yards. -22.4 @ 400 yards and -49.x @ 500 yards.

 

So maybe I will try to zero at 100 (as best I can) and then go 6" up and try for 300 yards..

and for 200 yards do the 3" UP rule also. It is good to know that the swing (aka flat shooting) for 5.45 is only 6" from 100-300, that would explain why the AK74 is preferred by the German prison guards..

 

(aka... aim at top of the head on the taarget and get the throat area)

 

Have to check my BDC drop 'dots' when doing this to see where I need to repeat..

 

Also read 7N6 5.45x39 ammo in 53gr defeats up to (but not including) Level IV vests..

Edited March 11, 2010 by YWHIC

[paprotective 362]

6X Scope do in today via the brown van person.. Wow..

Mount tonight and compare to the FOV on the 4x, and distance views out the back window here.

 

Dentist to rip molar out tommorrow in the AM .

[jimdigriz 580]

Also read 7N6 5.45x39 ammo in 53gr defeats up to (but not including) Level IV vests..

 

Hey, that's nothing to cry about!

 

Where did you read that? Do you have a link?

[jimdigriz 580]

So the 5.45 is similar to the .223 round.. I was looking for a 5.45 Traj/Drop/Ballis chart for it and can't find any.

 

Here's a basic bit I got from the Suarez forum:

Using Russian 7N10 Ammunition flying at 2887 feet per second

 

I will use the imperial yard system.

If you zero your AK74 at 25 yds your bullet will strike

2.8" high @ 100yds

300 yds @ 4.7" low

[paprotective 362]

No crying... for me.. (I don't mind LEO's as long as there not busting my chops).

 

I just googled 5.45x39 ballistics and up came a VEST Mfg.!! Had all the NJ Std's including V.

[paprotective 362]

So the 5.45 is similar to the .223 round.. I was looking for a 5.45 Traj/Drop/Ballis chart for it and can't find any.

 

Here's a basic bit I got from the Suarez forum:

Using Russian 7N10 Ammunition flying at 2887 feet per second

 

I will use the imperial yard system.

If you zero your AK74 at 25 yds your bullet will strike

2.8" high @ 100yds

300 yds @ 4.7" low

 

So if I split the 2.8" in half and add 4.7", I get about 6.1" for 300 yards.

(I know I do 'funny math')

 

6x Scope came in and I just got it on the mount a few minutes ago.

Definately not for shorter ranges as compared to the 4X I have.

[paprotective 362]

I measured off 150+ yards going out the back door and into the bball field there are 2 garbage cans side by side.

 

In the 4x32 scope they 'measure' only 4 mil-dots side by side (width wise) with the new 6x they are 8 mil-dot wide, now EACH can is 4 dots wide on the new scope.

I can also see the vertical slats on each can also with the 6x

 

But I can see how holding it STEADY at 150 yards+ is going to come into play. Thank god for the bag rest.

 

This aught to be fun if I can get out THIS Sunday to shoot it..

[jimdigriz 580]

Thanks for the continued reports. Still not sure whether I will buy the 4x or the 6x for the (hopefully upcoming) PSL; your reports will help me decide.

 

But I can see how holding it STEADY at 150 yards+ is going to come into play. Thank god for the bag rest.

Would you ever have a bag rest in the field? Do try prone also and let us know how it goes.

[paprotective 362]

I plan on doing it on the rest for accuracy first and then after I get on the target nice and quaint like... I will be standing and shooting to see how I fair on the overall target board which is 19 x 30.

 

I may bring along a modified FBI Q target (aka small coke bottle) if I have time and do the range max which I just learned is 200 yards also.. And I may also pop off the QD rail and blast at it also.

 

 

FBI Q Target Specs:

 

Head width is 5 1/2". Torso width is 12" and the overall Height is 19". 'Com' shots on this target is a 4" wide stripe up the middle..

 

Here is a picture of a 'Q' target as to be used. (obviously will be a new one)

 

[jimdigriz 580]

I plan on doing it on the rest for accuracy first

 

I understand. I'm just trying to figure out how the 6 power scope would work in a more likely scenario.