TacSat 90 Posted April 24, 2010 Report Share Posted April 24, 2010 After the restoration is done. is there any way to improve on accuracy of the weapon. or it is what it is. Sounds like a challenge if possible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alexc.s. 25 Posted April 24, 2010 Report Share Posted April 24, 2010 I think some one is working on something similar to the mini 14 barrel stabilizer. Not sure who but it sounds like a good idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) I know they make a rubber ring that slides up and down the barrel to change harmonics and tighten up groups. I wouldn't want anything "meltable" on a 223 AK barrel though. Not as hot as they can get. Corbin *EDIT* I also remember seeing someone free float a tube style HG on (I think) a Saiga 12. Granted, on a shotgun, that's not really very useful. But if I remember right, he had a 3/4 donut made that slipped onto the barrel back by the receiver and the free float tube attached over it. That'd be work, but it COULD be done. Not sure how much difference it'd make though. Edited April 25, 2010 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted April 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) So the short answer is no.or not done yet. Edited April 25, 2010 by TacSat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lashlarue 1 Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Luck of the draw, my Instruction book , on the last page indicated an 86 mm group, or about 3.5". Barrel whip on stamped receivers is something very hard to overcome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted April 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Barrel whip? what is that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 My .223 is pretty accurate as it is. There may be some gains that could be had by modifying the gun in some way, but probably the most fruitful efforts will focus on the skills of the shooter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zero2epiphany 4 Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 Im a bit curious what kind of accuracy your getting with your rifle, at what range,and with what ammo? Honestly, the best things to do for accuracy with a saiga and simply; 1. the four fundimentals of shooting.....with paricular care with sight picture with an ak platform. I personally shoot like crap with ak sights. 2. ammo selection. When I first took the rifle to the range I sighted in with some 55 grain wolf hollow points i had gotten for cheap. Accuracy was ok, in the 4 inch area at 100 yards using a dot scope. Swithced ammo to federal xm193 stuff and accuracy was cut in half. I love this stuff, just ordered a whole bunch of this ammo. 3. try a scope or a dot sight, Ive given up on ak sights. As far as that back of the manual group size thing, well I wouldn't put much faith in it. Mine says 84mm, with whatever ammo they use and however they do it. my guess is thats its just treated as a functions check and off it goes. Barrel whip: That big ole hunk of tube steal flexes when you fire a round. its not much, but all firearms do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 Forgot to mention.... Polish the hammer/trigger interface and get a smoother trigger pull. I have a dremil disk that's made of rubber impregnated with a fine grit. Works great. I've also seen folks put a shim under the back of the trigger to reduce creep. They used sheet metal shims, pennies or washers. I might make one myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 As others have said the biggest thing is shooting technique. Relevant to that is the sights. I find them limiting. Obviously one can upgrade to better sights or optics. As mentioned above improving the trigger also helps one to be able to shoot more accurately. Next is ammo. To maximize accuracy you need consistent ammo that your gun likes. You can have everything else but if you don't have good ammo you're spinning your wheels. If you are serious about squeezing all the accuracy you can out of weapon then you need to work up loads for it. Some people have reported positive results by recrowning, the benefit of this largely depends on the shape the crown is in before you start. Someone free floated a S308. They had a bunch of other mods so who knows how much of an effect the free floating alone had. One could rebarrel the rifle too I suppose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 As others have said the biggest thing is shooting technique. Relevant to that is the sights. I find them limiting. They make it more difficult to be accurate than peep sights, but with practice, they are quite serviceable. Exactly what kind of accuracy are you trying to achieve with your AK? On the Saigas, they are capable of 4 MOA or better with a good shooter. That's all the practical accuracy one would need for most real world applications, except for competitions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted May 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 thanks for the info. just was nervous switching from ar to ak platform. after taking out to shoot before restoration . hit all targets (bottles plastic) so i see where i hit. at 100yrds with irons, from prone. it was better than i thought. the trigger sucks but that is temporary. easily fixed. Did a search on barrel whip and learned alot. thought you all would like this. did not realize how much the barrel did move.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snuffy Smith 0 Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 (edited) After the restoration is done. is there any way to improve on accuracy of the weapon. or it is what it is. Sounds like a challenge if possible. Evening Tac, After nearly three years of shooting my Saiga 223, I've learned the following: 1) When you convert, you should install a full length handguard instead of a Galil style to reduce barrel whip, which you already know about. The Saiga was modified with two studs at the front sight for the reduction of barrel movement. When I replaced my factory handguard with the shorter style, the accuracy was affected in spades. Now, I'm using a SGM tri-rail, which is full length. 2) You need to shoot dirty. The Saiga, AK, is made to shoot dirty. If I clean the bore spotless, it'll take 40-50 rounds to bring accuracy back to an acceptable level. I clean the bore about every 800-1000 rounds; however, I do run an oily patch thru the bore, and I strip and clean the weapon about every 400 rounds. 3) You'll need to work the trigger, but you already know that, too. 4) In the grunts, we were taught B.R.A.S.S. which is Breath, Relax, Aim, Sight/Stop= stop all movement, Squeeze. When you squeeze the trigger, the actual firing will almost be a surprise to you. If you know or anticipate the firing, you're jerking the trigger. http://pdf.textfiles...0-%20part01.pdf 5) How you hold the pistol grip is of the utmost importance. Each rifle will be somewhat different. You need to place your hand upon the grip so that you keep the trigger finger perpendicular to the trigger at a 90 degree angle, which is usually low instead of high on semi-autos. This will result in an even, smooth backward pull until the trigger breaks. 6) If you're using optics, you need to keep the power to the lowest setting. For 100-150 yards, I use 4x. My scope is 4-12x. This will help with parallax distortion. You'll have a clearer image of the target. 7) If you're shooting from a bag(s), you need to position the forend and butt on the bags consistently, i.e., try to place in the same spot every time. 8) I added a Tapco recoil pad to my T-6 stock. It reduced felt recoil and keeps the butt in place. 9) Dry-Fire: It'll improve your form and function. Since I reload, I use brass w/primer. At times, I'll use spent brass, but I only snap once per case ,1 time. This provides support for the firing pin. I setup my bags and rifle on the dining room table lookin' out the window, after checking the chamber. When the rifle is properly situated on the bags, then I get a good NPA (natural point of aim) with the scope reticle resting effortlessly on the NPA, which is a stump in front of a mound of dirt and hill. Next, I practice breathing; then, I practice lookin' at the reticle clearly, not the target. Finally, I practice squeezing the trigger until a clean break. I want the break to be a complete surprise to me, if possible. Since primers have gone from $1.85 to $4.20 a hundred, it saves money to use spent range brass. IMHO! http://www.personald...get=dryfire.php 10) Call your Shot! Why? It'll enable you to watch the reticle. I know, I know you're saying:"I'm watching it". Nope! You see it, but you're not watching it. When you start calling your shots, you'll learn the difference. 11) Wind: Tail Wind = UP Wind Right to Left = UP Head Wind = Down Wind Left to Right = Down Finally, I'd suggest you learn to reload. Ammunition is critical. Factory ammo is rated on a bell curve, so accuracy depends on its quality. If you reload, then you have absolute control over quality; also, I'd suggest shooting a ladder test for each bullet type/load under consideration: http://www.desertsha.../incredload.pdf PS: Last Words ***M-16 Cleaning Procedure*** Assemble the flexible cleaning rod by putting the slotted tip on one end and the knurled obstruction remover on the other end. This knurled part allows turning the rod for chamber cleaning. Swab Attachment Method 1 Insert the point of the patch into the slotted tip. Center the patch. Method 2 Punch a hole in the center of the swab. This insures that the swab will be tied onto the forged brass tip to prevent it from accidentally lodging in the bore. Place the brass tip into the slot on the swab. Take a pinch on the swab at the corner. Pinch it upward to a point. Feed the tip of the fold through the slot in the brass tip. Pull this tightly as this ties the knot, that will give the efficient scrubbing action. Notice that if tied correctly the swab now forms a symmetrical cone . This will center the tip and provide 360 degree scrubbing action. Always use a new clean surface each time you pull the swab down the bore. This is equivalent to rinsing out a mop and prevents abrasive dirt in the muzzle from getting tracked into the chamber area. The size of the swab can be varied by placing the slot in a different location on the swab. Check to make sure the weapon is unloaded and the magazine is empty. The most important rule of gun cleaning is to always clean from breech to muzzle in the direction of the bullet. There are no exceptions to this rule. If you go in the wrong direction "muzzle to breech" you will bring powder residue and abrasive dirt from the barrel into the chamber and neck. The next bullet down the barrel will drag this dirt and erode the bore. Overview # 1. Pull a patch with solvent through the bore to mop out any loose residue and dirt. # 2. Pull a brush. Turn it to clean the neck and shoulder of the neck chamber. # 3. Pull a new swab to mop the residue the brush loosened. # 4. Repeat this procedure until the swab comes out clean. *** Cleaning procedure for AK-47 *** * Open breech * Piss in chamber It might be inferior, but depending upon the situation, it just might be the right tool for the job. As Ole Snuffy Smith would say: "Times uh wastin'" Gotta go! Edited May 12, 2010 by Snuffy Smith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Coils 2 Posted May 9, 2010 Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 There was someone that did a post on here and another forum about his, he had a 4 or 6X scope on a stock rifle and messed with hand loads and had 5 shots just about touching at 100 yards. So it's possible without a lot of effort. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
diensthunds 0 Posted May 14, 2010 Report Share Posted May 14, 2010 As far as trigger pull goes, a nice trick that I'm sure many have learned and may have forgotten is to put a dime or a penny on the end of your muzzle while you lay in the prone position (helps to have somebody else doing this while you are in shooting position) and squeeze the trigger without knocking the dime off the barrel. We used to do it with the M-16 not sure if it works with the AR or not (haven't picked up my rifle yet). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted May 14, 2010 Report Share Posted May 14, 2010 I vaguely remember reading about someone welding (TIG IIRC) the trunnion to the receiver to reduce barrel whip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted May 18, 2010 Report Share Posted May 18, 2010 11) Wind: Tail Wind = UP Wind Right to Left = UP Head Wind = Down Wind Left to Right = Down I understand how bullet spin can make the round climb or drop depending on wind direction, but for the distances the AK GENERALLY shoots at, do you think you'd notice that much difference? Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snuffy Smith 0 Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) 11) Wind: Tail Wind = UP Wind Right to Left = UP Head Wind = Down Wind Left to Right = Down I understand how bullet spin can make the round climb or drop depending on wind direction, but for the distances the AK GENERALLY shoots at, do you think you'd notice that much difference? Corbin Morning Corbin, Under "normal" conditions, you're right that the wind would be a moot point, but everything is relative in this world. In some parts of the country the wind blows all the time. The month of March is usually a windy month, too. At 100 yrds, a 25 mph wind will move a 55gr bullet 1 inch or more. The "or more" is due to the fact that you'll have some difference because of BC, velocity, etc. If you're shooting FMJ v/s hollow points, you could experience a 1-3 inch drop of bullet at 100 yrds. If you had only one shot, if your life depended on that one shot, It would behoove you to have a limited knowledge/understanding of wind direction. The original question was: "How or could better accuracy be achieved?" Understanding wind affect on a bullet is a free fix. However, I'm glad you posted your question because the rifle twist (i.e. right or left hand) would, also, determine how you read the wind. It's hard to recall every minor point of understanding. Again, thank you! Here's a video by MidwayUSA concerning ammunition: Everything is Relative: When I was a boy, my grandfather said the following, "Boy, I reckon I need some fence staples. Fetch 'em for me from my boot betwix us and the swag. They be in a poke." What? This was perfect, understandable English for my grandfather, but I had no idea what he'd just ask me to do. Not wanting to expose my ignorance, I asked my father what he'd said. He explained that the "swag" was the low ground in the distance, that the "boot" was the trunk of his car and the "poke" was a paper sack. "Betwix" meant between. I just shook my head as I walked towards the swag betwix us and the boot of his car to find the staples in a poke. LOL Edited May 24, 2010 by Snuffy Smith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Snuffy gave some really good dope. Anything to dispel the myth that the Saiga is inaccurate is a plus in my book. I really wish my gun club would finish working on our 600yd rifle range. I've been itching to shoot my .308 that distance since I did the conversion. Coils, that member was AKsarben and he damn near put his 223 rounds in the same hole. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snuffy Smith 0 Posted May 22, 2010 Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 (edited) Snuffy gave some really good dope. Anything to dispel the myth that the Saiga is inaccurate is a plus in my book. I really wish my gun club would finish working on our 600yd rifle range. I've been itching to shoot my .308 that distance since I did the conversion. Coils, that member was AKsarben and he damn near put his 223 rounds in the same hole. Evening Gunny, Semper Fi. And thank you. Yet, I'm still learning and improving my shooting ability of the Saiga rifle. It's a breed apart! And I mean that in a good way. If you've seen the "white elephant", you appreciate its simplicity. Nothing is more disconcerting than to find yourself in a fight with a failed weapon. Every weapons platform has its weak and strong points. The Saiga is simplicity and durability at it's best, but its simplicity is its shortcoming, too. The heavy piston and bolt assembly which is slightly off center has a tendency of recoiling up and right; therefore, a firm press into the shoulder is essential for controlling recoil. Also, your shooting skills must be above and beyond reproach. But you know that since you're shooting a 308 win. If you're familiar with the Sturmgeweher (Storm Rifle), you know that both Stoner and Kalashnikov borrowed heavily from its design. There's nothing new under the sun! What is has been. Edited May 26, 2010 by Snuffy Smith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted May 22, 2010 Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 Semper Fi to you too Snuffy! Yeah, seen the "white elephant", have the CAR to prove it, and the memories of several dead Marines I will miss. I came back with a sour taste for the 5.56 and the Saiga .308 is a damn good fit for me. My M16A2 never failed on me but it was always there in the back of your head...especially if you just spent the last hour riding in a dusty convoy and were now hoofing it. You're not kidding about keeping it tight on the shoulder though. I've shot both the M240G and the M60E3 off hand and they never left bruises like the Saiga does. But both those weapons are heavier and absorb a lot of the recoil. I may be getting over my distaste for the 5.56 though as I seem to be getting the itch to get one to partner up to my .308. Especially when I see that grouping AKSarben was able to get. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted May 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 There are alot of good tips for shooting that have been posted here. but what the original intent was to find a mechanical answer for the weapon. It appears adding comp can help with barrel whip. in the end any rifle is only as good as the shooter, but ever edge the rifle has helps the shooter. not trying to make into tack driver just tweek alittle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted May 22, 2010 Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 Not really sure what more you're looking for tacsat. I think it's been proven that the rifle is a tackdriver post conversion with no further mods other than handloading ammo. Any spread on the target is going to be an ammo or shooter issue, not mechanics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted May 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 my misunderstanding then. I got the sense from all i read here that accuracy was ok. if there was a way to make better it sounded like a good project. im getting Cobra polished fcg then sending out my bolts out next. out of the box i didt think it was to bad at all. there is alot of good info here some i forgot about... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Snuffy Smith 0 Posted May 26, 2010 Report Share Posted May 26, 2010 (edited) Semper Fi to you too Snuffy! Yeah, seen the "white elephant", have the CAR to prove it, and the memories of several dead Marines I will miss. I came back with a sour taste for the 5.56 and the Saiga .308 is a damn good fit for me. My M16A2 never failed on me but it was always there in the back of your head...especially if you just spent the last hour riding in a dusty convoy and were now hoofing it. You're not kidding about keeping it tight on the shoulder though. I've shot both the M240G and the M60E3 off hand and they never left bruises like the Saiga does. But both those weapons are heavier and absorb a lot of the recoil. I may be getting over my distaste for the 5.56 though as I seem to be getting the itch to get one to partner up to my .308. Especially when I see that grouping AKSarben was able to get. You might try the Bulls Bag, Gunny. It could help tame that beast of yours (308 win). I bought the 10 inch field Bulls Bag from Able Ammo, but I wish I'd of bought the X7 system. Mine is a bit heavy at 21 lbs, but I filled it with sand instead of bird seed or rice. The Bulls Bag site doesn't recommend rice as a filler. http://www.bullsbag....ng_Rest_s/6.htm After my new glass is paid off, I'm gettin' the X7. You don't have to buy the complete set; I'll probably get the three bag system. You'll enjoy the Saiga 223. If your bullet selection is right, it'll get the job done in spades. I'm going to list the essentials for reloading, if you're interested. You might already reload, since you've not said. Anyway, it'll bear repeating: LEE Classice Press http://www.midwayusa...ctnumber=317831 Dillion Eliminator Balance Beam Scale http://www.dillonpre...tor__039__Scale Dillion D-Terminator Electronic Scale http://www.dillonpre...lectronic_Scale (Optional) Check Weights http://www.dillonpre...powder_charges_ Lee Pacesetter Die Set, 223 Remington http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=53559 Dillion Caliper Set Digital http://www.dillonpre...Digital_Caliper Dillion Dial (Mechanical) Caliper http://www.dillonpre...l_Dial_Calipers (Back up ) RCBS Trim Die http://www.grafs.com...productId/13142 (Also, you'll need a # 6 fine file) Universal Expander (Flaring ) Die http://factorysales..../xcart/cart.php (Lee Dies at this site) http://www.factorysa...alog/index.html Lee Powder Dipper Set http://www.grafs.com.../productId/7574 Lee Powder Funnel http://www.grafs.com.../productId/7654 Lymann Reloading Manual 49th ed. http://www.grafs.com...productId/10641 (I have edition 48 and I use it more than all others) Rock Tumbler http://www.therocksh...m/tumbler1.html Dillion CV-750 Vibratory Case Cleaner http://www.dillonpre...ry_Case_Cleaner Tumbler/Vibratory Media http://www.bird.com/...-litter/533526/ I use Walnut Bird Litter because it's half the price for standard case media from the shooting supply shops. I add about 10% play sand to 90% Walnut, if I'm using a rock tumbler because it turns much slower than a vibratory system. A rock tumbler will run months without stopping. I have a single 3lb system. If I buy another it'll be dual, so I can tumble rifle and pistol cases in separate tumblers at the same time. Note: If you're reloading pistol cases, you'll need to check for a ghost ring after 5-6 reloads. When the case is ready to fail, you'll see a ring appear around the middle or near the bottom. I've only seen 1 in rifle cases, but it can happen too. The case will separate at this point. Also, if you reload steel cases, you'll need the expander die, since you'll need to open the case mouth .0003 to avoid tearing the jacket of your bullet. I do not trim pistol brass. I use my powder dippers to trickle powder, but you can buy a Redding Powder Trickler for about $45.00. I hope this will guide anyone that's interested. I use a dremel tappered stone to ream (smooth) the inside of the case mouth after trimming instead of a reamer. Also, I polish the inside mouth with 000 sheet steel wool. Home Depot has it in the paint dept. They have the stone, too. It's around $7.00. IMHO it's better and cheaper than a reamer. Your opinion might differ. The Lee Classic Press has a primer tool, which'll save about $25.00 for their hand primer. I never use my hand primer anymore. Oh yeah, you'll need a vibratory case cleaner. I use a rock tumbler instead. It'll last for years. You might have to replace a drum but that's about it. They cost more initially, but you'll save money in the long run. If you're going for the vibratory system...get Dillion. They have the best equipment. IMHO. Later, I'm going to buy a set of Dillion 223 dies. They're not cheap...about $150.00. Lee site for setup and help videos: http://www.leeprecis...deos/video.html Here's a good video on bench rest technique: I use the left hand against my butt stock to help adjust the elevation and NPA as well as keep the butt firm against the shoulder. MCRP 3-1A Marine Corp Marksmanship http://drum-runners.com/Mil%20-%20Rifle%20Marksmanship%20Part%201.pdf Ich hoffe, das hilft dir! I hope this helps! auf Wiedersehen Goodbye Edited May 31, 2010 by Snuffy Smith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I know they make a rubber ring that slides up and down the barrel to change harmonics and tighten up groups. I wouldn't want anything "meltable" on a 223 AK barrel though. Not as hot as they can get. Corbin *EDIT* I also remember seeing someone free float a tube style HG on (I think) a Saiga 12. Granted, on a shotgun, that's not really very useful. But if I remember right, he had a 3/4 donut made that slipped onto the barrel back by the receiver and the free float tube attached over it. That'd be work, but it COULD be done. Not sure how much difference it'd make though. how about this .308? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=28671&st=0&p=255544&hl=floated&fromsearch=1entry255544 or this .223? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=21835&st=0&p=189744&hl=floating&fromsearch=1entry189744 it can be done, I have had a more conventional idea bugging me but haven't had the time to truly play for awhile. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I remember seeing the free floated 308, but the pic in the Tromix thread isn't working, unfortunately. Still a good read though. I suppose it would come to a point where you'd have to ask yourself what the best trade off, weight & cost to accuracy, would be. I suspect there'd be a plateau you'd hit with any given caliber where any increase in accuracy would be very incremental. Apart from caliber capabilities, we are also somewhat restricted in the AK weapons platform in what we can do, obviously. I mean, YEAH..... you COULD remove the gas system and just have a heavy free floated barrel and it'd be a straight pull bolt action, essentially. You could probably get some decent accuracy that way. But at what point does it stop being an AK? For a 223 Saiga, I want something able to put rounds on a paper plate at 300 meters reliably, all day long. Mine will already do that though. Yeah, 600 meters would be nice, and the round is capable, but if I'm going to be carrying it a lot, there will come a point where I'll ask myself if the weight is worth it, when perhaps a few more rounds downrange would probably hit what I need. We're not talking sniper shots here. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I remember somewhere there was a video of an ak with a gap between the barrel and the gas tube as a proof of the ruggedness of the firearm. I was thinking of possible ways to "hang" the handguards and gas system on the reciever with proper clearancing and a seal for the gas tube to the barrel. I'm gonna need a lot of research though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 the pic of tony's .223. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Hey Gunny, What ever became of AKsarben? He used to post great reloading and range reports and it was very helpful. Has anyone heard from him? Frosty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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