More warning signs, pay particular attention to the way homeschoolers and Christians have become marginalized in Europe. The accusations of racism are very reminiscent of the way the left-wing MSM in America tries to portray Conservatives here. We cannot allow the Bill of Rights to be altered in America, it's the only thing that separates US from them.

Not Welcome at Conference on Islamic Radicalism. Thank You, Belgium
By Paul Belien
Created 2007-05-03 09:48

The International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) is holding its Annual International Conference in Brussels from 29 June to 1 July. ICSA is “concerned about psychological manipulation and abusive relationships, especially as they manifest in the interaction of individuals with cults, new religious movements, and related groups.”

Preceding its conference, ICSA was planning a special day on Islamic radicalism. They proposed me as one of the speakers but Henri de Cordes, president of a Belgian government organization, the Information and Advice Center on Harmful Sectarian Organizations (CIAOSN in French, IACHSO in English), vetoed me.

Cordes wrote ICSA the following e-mail:

This guy [Paul Belien] is definitely a right flemish nationalist extremist. His party – or at least his wife’s party, she is a member of the Chamber [of Representatives] – is the Vlaams Belang (Flemish interest), formerly Vlaams Blok (do I need to translate?) which is the second flemish party; most democratic party are doing their best to avoid VB member in their majority. Beside their nationalist views VB has a racist (or rather white suprematist) speech.
Personally, if I were invited to a meeting with this guy on the panel, I would refuse the invitation.
Henri



Cordes’ CIAOSN does not consider Islamic fundamentalism to be problematic. Its list of sects, however, includes several Christian groups.

While Islam is officially recognized as a religion in Belgium, the Scientology Church was refused official recognition by the Belgian authorities. A Mormon girl was prohibited from attending meetings of her church because according to the Belgian authorities the Mormons are a cult.

Other groups of “cultic” organizations on the CIAOSN list are the Venerable Chapel of Our Lady of Antwerp Cathedral (!) [too loyal to the Pope apparently], Opus Dei, Anthroposophy, Jehovah’s Witnesses, various Catholic and Protestant evangelical and pentecostal groups.

In divorce cases Belgian courts often refuse to place children under the care of a parent belonging to an organization which CIAOSN considers to be a sectarian group. According to CIAOSN homeschooling is an indication of belonging to a sect, which makes all Belgian homeschoolers suspect.

In 2003, the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights criticized Belgium because of its lack of religious freedom and tolerance. The IHFHR wrote on page 17 of its report [pdf]:

Groups and members of groups included on the [CIAOSN] list have reportedly been subject to harassment and discrimination both by authorities and by private actors. Victims include, inter alia, members of Adventist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Jehovah’s Witness, Sahaja Yoga, Spiritual Human Yoga, Raelian and Church of Scientology communities.

• Some Belgian municipalities have made it a requirement for civil service positions not to belong to any “harmful sect.” [while civil servants are allowed to belong to radical Islamist groups]

• Religious associations mentioned on the official list of groups suspected of being “harmful sects” are often denied the right to rent public meeting venues.

• In divorce cases, courts sometimes deny child custody to a parent on grounds that he or she is affiliated with a “harmful sect.” In some cases, courts also grant a parent who is a member of a “sect” visitation rights on condition that he or she does not “expose” his or her child/children to the teachings or lifestyle of the religious group in question.

• The tax department has denied the Japanese religious group Sukyo Malikari the right to exemption from property tax for its place of worship because it is included on the list of groups suspected of being “harmful sects.”



In 2004, I wrote a column in a magazine criticizing CIAOSN for its religious intolerance – something which they apparently have not forgiven me and which may explain why this government organisation depicts me as a “white suprematist.”

Wow - lumping Pentecostal Christians in with Jehovah's witnesses and denying them equal rights while accepting Islamic extremism.

I'd say those Pentecostals who are said to "see the devil behind every bush" may be more right than I thought.

"Theres a Devil behind that Bush" I think that was an old Cramps song........

The sad thing is that we are rolling as fast as we can down the same road and nobody seems to care for the most part. I suppose my children will carry on the good fight. This has been getting increasingly depressing lately. Not you guys, just the realization of things I have been not been aware of.

1911

I think BRG3's signature says it well enough

"From this place we will deliver notice to the parliaments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness. And we will hold that line, no matter the cost"

The Buster generation is projected to be less than 4% evangelical by the time they reach 35 years old.

Hey, even a guy like me sees the trouble coming. I know I have more than a few rough edges but I'm back in School to become a pastor...FWIW

better put: not more problematic than others.

and yes, the list does include some christian groupings amongst other things. why? because they were found to be exploitative and abusive.

they're a set list of criteria used here, so don't go 'ooooooooh, this is a political attack on christianity', because really, it isn't. they don't give a rats ass if they're investigating a jewish group, an islamic group or a christian group. CIAOSN uses a set list of criteria.

as such, catholics have for instance been pushing to put Freemasonry (which isn't really comparable with freemasonry in the USA btw) on the list, but that fell through since they don't fit the criteria.

also do note the wording: SOME groups from catholics backgrounds, SOME pentecostal groups, etc are listed as cults. that is far from saying all are abusive...

as for homeschooling, isn't that correct? it's simpler to keep a person in a sect if you don't school them to think for themselves. this of course does not mean that the majority of homeschooling leads to sectist behavior, because it's obvious it does not, but it can bloody well be one of many indications. that's like saying being an arab is not a possible indication of being an arab terrorist... on it's own, it means nothing, but compounded with other factors, it can be an indication.

anyhow, the CIAOSN was created for a purpose. at the moment, the islamic fundamentalism does not fall under their direct supervision. this does not mean that the scope of their responsability will not be broadened in the future, but at the moment, it is rather normal only few islamic organisations figure on their list. (but once again, that doesn't mean that other organisations aren't moving against them)


if an islamic group fits the criteria, it'll be put on the list of harmful sects. but most radical islamic dont fit the criteria used today.

does this mean that radical islam is not dangerous and not being watched? no, it simply means that they don't fall into the criteria of abusive sects and should be combatted through other means.


yeah, so? what's the use of a list if it doesn't get used?

the idea is to boycot and suppress those dangerous cults...


so you prefer we simply let them brainwash the kids? wonderful. this list was created for a reason, ye know...

and that reason isn't to annoy religious people, it is to protect from abuses...


right, we should exempt abusive sects from taxes because ????

help me here, because i don't quite see a reason to.

---------

anyhow, a few facts about Paul Belien (the writer):
- in the past he's been found guilty of attempting to incite violence with racist motives.
- he hopes for the complete destruction of the Belgian nation (in favor of splitting the nation in half).
- has been known for writing very anti-islamic articles (that weren't even directed at fundamentalists or radicals)
- he's married to who once was the greatest female figure of Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang. she got shoved in the closet by her fellow politians for being an utter airhead that didn't fit in with the "play nice"-tactics that they are now using to seem more acceptable to vote for.

it is oh so funny that he talks about freedom of religion, when he himself says islamic females shouldn't be allowed to cover their heads in Belgium. yet jews are excempt from the same rule.

as always, you read what you want and believe what you want to believe, but this thing is nonsense for a (right)centrist belgian like me.

if he was sincere about this, he'd have talked about how it is necessary for broadening the scope of the organisation. instead, he just decended into a quasi-educated rant that looks like he's sincere, but in fact he's just playing his readers for fools.

The operational definition of a harmful sectarian organisation, i.e. a definition to be used by the secretarial staff of the Centre in their daily work, is based on the provisions of the 2 June 1998 law and on the non-exhaustive list of dangerousness criteria drawn up by the parliamentary commission on sects (2). "As the concepts of dangerousness and harmfulness refer to a possible danger or harmfulness, the analysis of the harmful character of a sectarian organisation amounts to a risk assessment. This assessment is founded on real cases of risks and in the absence of real risks on the intrinsic characters of the organisation ". (3)

Harmfulness criteria (4)

The harmfulness criteria selected by the Centre are based on those listed in the Report of the Parliamentary Enquiry Commission:

deceitful or abusive recruitment methods;

use of mental manipulation;

physical or mental (psychological) maltreatments inflicted to followers or their families;

deprivation of followers or of their families from appropriate medical care;

acts of violence, particularly sexual, against followers, their families, third parties or even children;

breaking off the links between the followers and their families, their husbands or wives, their relatives and their friends;
This one is particularly problematic when you consider Luke 12:51-53, "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against mother; mother-in-law against daughter-on-law, and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." Sounds like these self-enshrined protectors of society could outlaw the Bible itself!

kidnapping children or removing them from their parents;

deprivation from the freedom to leave the sect;

disproportionate financial claims, swindle and misappropriation of funds to the detriment of the followers;

abusive exploitation of the work of followers;

breaking off all links with the democratic society presented as evil;

destruction of society for the benefit of the sect;

use of illegal methods to seize power
This one would include much of what our government has done in the last century. Gun control, income tax, no speaking ill of politicians within 90 days of an election, and so on.

and on existing laws which can be applied to new religious movements violating them.

Moreover, the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have been taken into consideration.

The criteria are divided up into categories with regard to violations of individual rights (psychical, physical as well as financial) and violations of the standards and values governing society.

Every criterion has not the same weight. Some criteria refer to more serious offences than others.

For the assessment of a movement, it is not sufficient to add up the various criteria to determine the harmfulness of a group.

The criteria must rather be considered indicators for a global assessment.

This instrument may not be used either to compare different movements.

(1) Centre d'avis et d'information sur les organisations sectaires nuisibles (CIAOSN)

(2) The content of the operational definition was defined at a meeting of the CIAOSN held on 18

The Europeans are brain dead when it comes to dealing with Islam and trampling Christians in the birthplace of Christianity. The abandoned their faith to become multicultural, 'tolerant' and 'liberal' and forgot who they are. When you don't know who you are you will lose to Musalims who know what they are. If Heaven forbid that Hitlery Clinton becomes president she will impose this shit on the American people and go after devout Christians and Jews while letting Muslims run amok. We can also kiss our gun rights goodbye (which includes our Saigas).

trampling Christians in the birthplace of Christianity? would you care to explain that please?

if your religion is the only thing that shapes what you are, than i'd argue you are the one that is most in danger...

you trying to tell me that I -as an atheist- have 'forgotten who i am', but a blind believer in christianity 'knows who he is'? wow... just wow.

PS: being multicultural, tolerant and even liberal doesn't mean you have 'lost your faith' btw. doesn't the bible tell you to be tolerant? doesn't boedhism tell you to accept your neighbours? wasn't Jeruzalem a place where once upon a time christians, jews and muslims lived side by side (they didnt loose their faith, did they?)?

It's pretty obvious from your posts that your atheism doesn't shape what you are.