Shot a Tactical Shotgun Match today, and I found that I'm pretty rusty, I only have a few Pictures, these Saiga Get togethers are great for swapping ideas and discussing all things Saiga! My APG mags ran great.

See ya later!

RonSwin,
How was the side Carbine match?

John,
great to see you and Johnnygun. I found I have to do some "tweaking" of my AGP mags and I aprecieate the tips on what to do. I did not shoot much of the carbine match as my SW-10 was shooting 6 inches high at 35 yds. and I didn't bring the HK sight adjustment tool. Hope to see you and Eric at Blackcreek next Saturday.

I have a family Reunion next weekend I I will be down near Fayetteville,

The BW shirt fit Eric fine, thanks for all that 8mm!!!!!

A little sanding and filing will fix those APG's I only had one minor snag the whole day, and that may be due to the wide varity of ammunition that I used (tried to get rid of the extra left overs I has around the house).

JonnyGun what did you think?

were you guys looking for a mole type mag pouch
or someone else?... anyway i found this and thought of you competitors
it seems like it could hold 8 or 9 with the top open and hold tols in other pouches
Click to view attachment

I use a Russian Assualt Vest, RonSwin uses a Russian (I think) AK chest rig with elastic across the magazine pouches. Unlike most people I have my mags in the Assualt Vest pockets shell up facing forward, it saves having to flip it around to load. Kmoore has hooks on his mags so he can hang them from his belt which I think is a great idea.

What Choke to you guys recommend? I use Full I find that there are always a few steels that refuse to die!

NCRR is different from most matches as it caps your shot size (for others, this is because it backs to a freeway).

Normally, you would run a modified choke for 95% of the time, and use shell selection to handle stubborn steel. Couple of the better shooters on benos.com pretty much glue the mod choke in, and use diff shells to handle odd stuff (spreaders for close, heavy for stubborn).

If you can adjust your choke, then you should choke to make the most difficult shot of the cof, and then you just slow down to make the closer, easier stuff. So if you have 5 steel plates at 30yds and 15 close clays the conventional wisdom is to choke tight for the plates, then slow down on the clays.

For a fixed choke gun, full will allow you to make all shots, but it comes at a cost. Say you have an array of 3 flippers. someone with modified choke will be able to hit all three, then pick the birds off, but with full you'll need to bear down on the flyers and likely shoot them individually. The cost? That's a lot of time! So, it comes down to shooting style, and your philosophy. Shooting on the move, and close arrays of clays is a lot funner/faster with a looser choke. But it sucks not being able to be able to make the tough steel fall

Kenneth,
I see your point, but I just got so used to it at NCRR that I would not know what to do with a wider choke.

Didnt APG show some kind of mag pouch on thier web site?? I cant see it now. My 109 should be here this week and a poly choke and APG mags will be on order Monday. I used my Win SX2 today for a 3 gun match but Im looking fwd to a chance to play with the Saga. I also have a wraithmaker on order. Man thats gonna clean a couple stages!

Tnek,
I predict your SX2 will be occupying a dark corner of your gunsafe once you get your Saiga-12 and have some time to shoot it. Spend some time practicing the mag changes as this is where you will eat the most time while on the clock. It will get to be second nature to you after a few matches and some range time.

Hey all you three gunners!
I've pinned this topic at the top so you guys can always get to it right on the first page. John thanks for starting it and Eric, Ron, Kenneth, Robb, all you guys, keep us up to date on happenings on the competitive circuit. Hopefully one of these days I can show up and do more than just watch...

Cobra,
Thanks for pinning this thread as competition is the best advertisement for the Saiga-12. We definately will be looking for you and your Saiga at NCRR this summer. I plan to use mine this year at the NC Recon, the NC Tactical Invitational, NCRR, Ft. Benning 3-gun and possibly the Area 6 USPSA 3-Gun Championship .
Our motto is "work is for time between 3-gun events"!!

Thanks for making this a subforum.
Now I have a couple more Q's
My gun is shipping to my FFL as I type, I just ordered 4 AGP mags and Polychoke is backordered for about 2 weeks.
What are the next most helpfull parts and at home mods to facilitate 3 gun usage?
I see info on bolt hold open and extened hold opens but not much on who sells them. Same for mag release. I dont want a dot at this point but a nice fibre optic front sight and a ghost ring rear sounds like where I would like to start off.
What is the thing with dremeling the bolt for a full mag?? The stovepipe looking bolt handle?
At this point Id just like to do a few things to facilitate the ease of use for 3 gun and leave the stock config for the moment. Id like to use it a couple months like that and determine if I want to do more then Id send it to Tromix for a more profesional job and finish. For now I just want to get comfortable with it and see where this experiment takes me.
What say you fellow 3 gunners?

What most peole just don't seem to understand is these are imported weapons. You can't just change a part here and part there. You just about HAVE to do the PG conversion or at least change enough parts the first time to be able to use all the available accessories.

About the only things I can think of that you can do to it without playing the 922r game are:

recoil buffer
recoil pad
different sights
optics
extended mag release (Jeric at Warfield Armory)
BHO or LRBHO (Same place)
polishing your FCG to make it smoother
barrel crowning
slings
ventillated handguards/ forearms
paint

ummm...anything else guys?

Soo, does that mean that unless I change the fire control group to the pistol grip type I cant install the extended mag release or BHO?

No I said you CAN do all those things without converting.

I think the only mod that will require 922r compliance is the addition of a pistol grip. Or using a factory (foriegn) 8 round mag. Otherwise, it is still sporting, or in the case of using a 10 round mag it isn't deemed sporting but it also doesn't have a foriegn mag body, floorplate or follower. Same with a drum.

Your sights idea is good, but I don't know which to recommend. I'd also think the G3 sights that Tony adds would be slick!

Here's a note I just posted elsewhere ...

=============================================


I'd shoot it a bunch, then decide what you'd like to tweak.

Area's to work on:

Do you want it converted to a pistol grip?
Get you mags/drums reliable (if they aren't). AGP's 10 rounders are the ticket! Factory 8's are good too, but pricey. 5 round mags have thier place.
Figure out how you want to carry the mags. Vest, belt, etc. This can affect the reload style you settle on.
Find the birdshot that it likes.
Does the choke you have do what you want? Modified is a good all around choice, but getting the gun to take changeable chokes is better.
Find the buckshot that it likes.
Sight it in.
Figure out the gas settings for bird/buck/slugs.
Work on your reloads. Do you want to grind the bolt?
There are several styles of reloading, so find what you like.
Do you want a last round bolt hold open (see Jeric).
Do you want an extended mag release (again, see Jeric).
Find the stock length that works for you.
Do you need a cheek piece to get a proper sight picture?
sights are a big decision. There are a lot of options here.
Do you like VFG?
muzzle brake?
Smooth out the action, polish contact points. Especially between bolt and hammer.


Some of this stuff needs to be worked out to match the kinds of matchs you will shoot. USPSA has the only universal set of rules that I know of. Most other matches have their own thier own brand of rules. This can affect your choice of optics/sights, brakes, shot useage, etc.

Some folks have worked out a magwell, but nothing universal.

I know this isn't much help, but a lot depends on what you want and the matches you shoot.

Good Luck, it's a lot of fun!
================================================

I just posted some pics of the shotfun match in the general S-12 section. I did not know the thread had been moved to this area untill two seconds after I posted it. I thought it was strange that there was no mention of the match in the old thread! John, got a agreat shot of you posted (lefty). My stock AGP mags ran just fine with AA Winchester 7 1/2. Definately need that choke set, the Texas stars were tough!

The match was fun but the best part was getting a chance to look at and handle all the Saigas up close and personal. It gave me a lot of ideas on how I want to proceed with Ivans conversion. I was trying to figure out how to modify Ivans trigger guard and it was interesting to see that each Saiga conversion handeled the challange differently.

kmoore,, the areas to work on are pretty much what I was thinking of. Get the shotty and figure out what feels good. I would like to see some more info on the bolt grind item. I need to search the forum here when I get a moment to do so. Im just getting into the Saiga picture and have a lot to learn and catch up on.

I can't speak for other match rules. But, in USPSA the detachable magazine puts you in Open. So, you might as well think about an optic.

I know but I still dont know if I want a dot. Im not exactly concerned about winning and taking home the Buick, its about the fun factor. Im still going too shoot a SS in L10 pistol but I know Ill still be open overall. If anything gets a dot now it will be my Wilson or a new stainless 45 with a dot. I dont care for the 2011 platforms grip.

40AET,
I agree but I want to get something like what Jammer made or an Ultimak, the thing is I want to keep the optic as low as possible until then I will keep using my irons.

Tnek- You should take a look at the Caspian guns. The grip is very close to a 1911 grip. Hi cap mags are available again and the gun is back in the competition market.

Thanks but Im done. I just got thru buying (and selling) a STI Edge and while I like it I just am a 1911 45 guy at heart.
The way multigun and 3 gun stages are a 45 with 10 round mags IS a disadvantage but there are some stages where its not as big of a difference as in pure pistol matches. I can live with it and for me its all about the fun factor.

I just want to mention to you guys that Tromix will be at the USPSA Nationals in October.

Come down and hang out with the Internet Legend, Tony Rumore, and the Elitist Douchebag, Bob Ash.

Oh yeah and see the latest Tromix offerings.

.....noted ! (Internet Legend & Elitist Douchebag......heh, heh, heh.........)

How do you qualify to be an "Internet Legend" – I want to give it a shot too...

Where is the "USPSA Nationals in October" going to be held? TULSA, OK? I want to hang out with the legends!

Tulsa, Oklahoma..........Oct. 4th through Oct. 7 !!!!

That'd really be cool......a chance to meet Makc !! (A Legend in his own Right!!!!!)

NCRR monthly Shotgun Match is coming up June 16th, Eric will be there this time hope to see Saiga's there in force this month, bring water it's going to be hot!

topmaul, I was spending what little spare time I have getting ready for June's NCRR shotfun match. My wife just reminded me that I a suppose to be washing cars for Jesus that Saturday....and she is right. Youth fund raiser of which i am treasurer and chief hose supplier...so I guess I will have to set this one out. Post some info & pics though. I am setting July 21 aside for my Saiga friends though!



Gun Control Is Hitting What You Aimed At

You bet Max! I'll buy the wodka.

Well guys time for TEAM SAIGA to stoot once more, www.ncrr.net tactical shotgun match it is under the IDPA section of the web site. Eric will be there trying to beat the old man, good luck kid LOL. Ron, Kenneth, Joe hope to see you there!

16 JUNE Tactical Shotgun Match at www.ncrr.net Norfolk County Rifle Rang will have a side pistol caliber carbine match I plan to use my brand new CX4 Strom.

http://ncrr.net/calendar/html/nc06162007.htm

I should check this post more often I wouldve loved to come out today.



Who do I need to talk with about coming out to these meets? I'd like to try something different than shooting paper and clays.

I have considered building up a properly modified Saiga-12 for MMA Competition. If I come up facing a competitor like Chuck Ludell this might be my only chance. Has anyone had experience in this type of competition with a Saiga?

http://ncrr.net/IDPA/matchresults/2007-06-16_SG.htm It's fathers day and I have to brag a bit my son Eric won the match with his Saiga 12, APG mags, BRG3 furniture, and a set of Krebs custom sights!

img]http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/Topmaul/Galatine002.jpg[/img] He whipped the old man I came in a poor 4th behind two tube feeders

Congratulations Eric!!!

I you want to shoot one of these matches just show up about 9:00 on the day of the match. We'll show you the ropes. You could always join the club.

Open class 3 gunners,, tell me your thoughts.
I have been shooting in the tactical class and use a L10 Wilson for my pistol. I use the same pistol for IPSC in L10 pistol only matches. I dont care for the widebody guns and just went thru buying and selling a Dawson STI Edge and all that went with it. Im a SS 1911 45 guy. End of story.
HOWEVER,, the way I see it is if Im gonna have to shoot open cause of the Saiga I might as well try to help my cause in the pistol dept. I dont want a race gun anyway for the previous reasons plus the hassle and risk of DQ using a race holster. SO I figured mounting a Dr or similar sight on a 45 will help but I still get to shoot my SS and use a standard Kydex style holster. I mentioned this while looking for opinions on good out of the box 45 at Enos and man a few of those guys just dont get it. Im doing this for FUN not to win. I dont care what I give up by shooting the handgun I prefer over a comped gun with a dot. I really tried to get thru that it just a game and a hobby and I dont think Im gonna take the nats anytime soon. A couple of them do not seem to be able understand that. Oh well,,
Are there any 3 gunners who switched to Saiga shooting non-open class pistols and or rifles??

Tnek,
I have been shooting 3-gun for several years now and it's definately "for fun". If you don't believe me about fun, just check some of my scores. Yup, open class goes along with having a Saiga-12 and most competitions. I pretty much say "WTF" and shoot anyway and have a good time doing it. USPSA, IPSC and IDPA have their own ideas as to what class the Saiga belongs in (Mags = speedloaders?!!?) so just go with it.
My current 3-gun "competiton" guns:
Saiga-12 modified w/ Ace sidefolder
Para Ord P16-40 Ltd. w/ Blackhawk Serpa holster
Bulgy Arsenal 105 AK-74 clone w/ Tasco 1.1-3.5x22 scope on high mount

Congratulations Eric!
I was lucky enough to hold & aim that Saiga last month. I thought all that wood made her a tad heavy but she felt GOOD and aimed quick! Apparently Eric knows what to do with it! Way to go team Saiga! I was thinking about the shotfun match while I was washing cars for Jesus on Saturday. The fund raiser was almost a little too successful and I was one wipped puppy by the end of the day.

Congrats Eric! You to topmaul happy father's day!
Tnek you have a PM.

One of the San Angelo crowd has been running a Saiga since before Saigas were cool. He doesn't like dot guns either, and just uses his Limited gun (was a Para, now he cowboy'ed up to a STI)...but with a 170mm "big stick" magazine. The dot gains you a little, the comp gains you a little, but not having to reload gains you a lot

The difference between Tactical and Open rifles has slid down to somewhere between slim and very little, with the advent of the sneaky covered illuminated sights, true 1-4 scopes, and those trick swing-away magnifier optics and mounts.

The big difference, beyond using a modern shotgun instead of an antique, is the pistol. Even running a big magazine helps a rather inordinant amount over a regular mag...figure 1.5/2 seconds for a mid-pack reload; saved at least one per stage equals big time reductions over the non-"gamey" guy shooting regular mags. Every little bit helps.

For the record, though, I run a full-up open gun in a modified DOH rig. At the Master and GM level, you have to take each and every little bit you can




Alex

topmaul......are you or Eric using any chokes? If so what are you using...full or modified?

That is if you dont mind sharing your winning secrets! I bought a set of chokes to try and make thoses Texas stars do my bidding! Hope to try them out tomorrow and compair patterns.

Eric has a fixed full choke,

I also use full so I don't have to hear about it when I whoop him maybe I should go to modified

http://www.rrpc.org/members/idpa/weaponsmaster.php

What do you think? Joe, Ron, Kenneth?


Shotgun: Primary targets will be stationary clay birds, steel, and IDPA silhouette targets. I don’t have official word yet, but the following round count should cover the match: 25 bird shot (#6 or snaller shot), 10 00 Buckshot and 5 slugs. 20 gauge or larger is required. No optics or shotgun speedloaders are permitted.
Trophies will be awarded in Pump Action and Semi-Auto Action subdivisions

I recieved an e-mail from the match director he said Saiga's are fine, so lets go!

John don't forget that you will be busy Sunday the 22!!!! at BW. Team saiga will have a very important competiton!
Bye Now
Giulio

I was at Blade-Tech ordering a DOH tek-lok mount to use on a bag from tactical taylor to try and make a mag pouch.
I sent them an email asking if they had any plans to make a mag carrier of some kind for the 10 rounders and I got a reply back this mng that they could but I would have to send them a mag. The guy asked me where to buy one. Sounds like a good sign.
Maybe if a few more shooters here would contact Blade-Tech to encourage the development of a usable pouch.

Blade-Tech has had one of my 12 and one of my 20's since mid-June 2006...


Alex

Thats not good. Why the heck did they want another one??

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/Top...pictures263.jpg



http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/Top...pictures261.jpg


My 3 gun set up