Was Just talking with a friend about this.
Figured it might me a good thing to get some basic info to help anyone who may be interested,
get the ball rolling the right way as far as NFA apps, Trust ect..

Discussion?

We get some good solid stuff together, I'll sticky this thread..

The standard approach for making your own SBS/SBR is: File a Form 1 with the ATF. You need two copies, two sets of passport size photos, and two sets of fingerprints. The form needs to be signed off by your CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer), usually the local sheriff or police chief. Enclose a check or money order for $200. You also need to submit a signed Form 1512-0571 (Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)B to certify US citizenship or proper immigrant status. Experience has shown that ten to twelve weeks is the average waiting time to obtain approval.

There is also some excellent info here which goes into more detail including situations where your CLEO refuses to sign the Form 1. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/...ist/nfa_faq.txt

Who the bloody-hell are you referring to when you say "friend"????!!!!!





...... ...... ...... ..........


Seriously though, I know a long time ago this topic was brought up (arguably several times) and several knowledeable forum members shared what they knew pertaining to this topic. Hell, if I recall correctly, one of our members at the time was a legal attorney and stuff.

Now.... if the bloody "search" option within these forums was worth a tinker's hoot.... instead of being a god-aweful, almost useless piece of fucktard sheeeeiiiiiit, my dear friend Juggelnuts... ( .... .... ..... ) wouldn't have posted this thread on my behalf.


But, ummm.......... I AM ALL EARS!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all well and good, but can a wanker (such as myself), residing in a pinko-tree hugging-liberal state such as Washington State, which has verbotten ALL machinegun, SBR and SBS ownership, can such a wanker still pursue ownership of these type of weapons via the trust route????



Please forgive my insolenct tone.... I didn't get my Starbucks this morning.

It's just one of those topics like compliant parts, AGP and others that come up all the time.
we stickied the 922R info and it seems to have helped with new threads popping up every day.
Just trying to think ahead with this one....

I don't know about a trust, but going with a corporation eliminates the need for a CLEO sign off.
1911

Think you would have to get involved in some type of Class III license, like a dealer's, to get around all the 'verbotenness' cursed upon your state. That is the situation across the river in Illinois. Maybe someone on the forum with knowledge from that state can chime in and enlighten us.

I hate getting up before 10 am and prefer to start the day with some 20 or 30 weight coffee also.

After searching my computer's portable back-up drive, the following info is what I saved from different sources well over a year ago. It pertains to "NFA Revocable Trusts" which allegedly is less complicated when one finds themself NOT able to obtain a CLEO's authorization:
_______________________________________________________________

Special Guest Writer Bob J. Howell
Use of the Revocable Trust to Purchase NFA Items

It is my distinct pleasure to introduce to you a special guest contributor this month. The following article was authored by Mr. Bob J. Howell. Mr. Howell is a practicing attorney in Florida experienced in Trust and Estates Law. He brings his wealth of knowledge and experience in the area to this piece, which examines the use of the revocable trust as a means of purchasing NFA items. Please enjoy Mr. Howell's unique perspective as he explores an important area of Estates and Firearms Law.

"My CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) says he won't sign off on any Form 4s, now what do I do?" This is something that many in the NFA community have heard time and time again. Despite the best efforts of many to explain the true meaning of the signoff provision of the Form 4, there are still many CLEOs who do not understand the meaning of the signoff or do not want to understand for personal or political reasons. For many years, the standard reply to this question as been to advise the potential buyer to set up a corporation. While this method of purchasing NFA items has been in widespread use for many years, there is an alternative: the Revocable Trust.

A Revocable Trust is a legal entity established under state law, like a corporation, and as such, a Trust can hold title to real and personal property. Some are familiar with the use of a Revocable Trust for Estate Planning. However, many are unfamiliar with the use of a Revocable Trust to purchase and own NFA items. The NFA in 27 CFR §479.11 specifically defines a Person (i.e. someone who is authorized to purchase NFA items) to include Trusts as well as Corporations. Therefore, absent a state law in your particular jurisdiction prohibiting same, you may purchase and own NFA items through a Revocable Trust.

Aside from being merely an alternative method of purchasing an NFA item, the Revocable Trust provides many benefits over a Corporation or LLC. In states where a Trust is not required to be registered, a Trust will provide a more private method of ownership. In the author's home state of Florida, there is no requirement to register or record a Revocable Trust. Therefore, the existence and terms of the Trust are known only to those whom you choose to tell. This is generally not the case with a Corporation. In a casual conversation with someone at the range who is new to NFA and has questions about it, you might explain the legalities and process for purchase and ownership as well as how you purchased them through your corporation because the local CLEO refuses to sign. A quick search through the state's Division of Corporations website using your name or the name of the Corporation can yield a wealth of information. Through such sources, a stranger can find out information such as what corporations you are an officer of and the registered address of any such corporations. If you use your home address as the registered address of your corporation, the person performing the search now knows where you live and where you may store your NFA items.

Another area where a Trust may be more desirable is cost. With the cost of initial filing fees and annual corporate fees, your cost for the corporation may exceed the cost of setting up a trust either initially or over time. As an example, an individual in Florida wants to purchase a .22 suppressor from a dealer for $300. As his CLEO will not sign the Form 4, he sets up a Corporation to purchase the suppressor. Filing fees to set up the corporation (absent any cost of legal assistance or cost of a corporate book) were $70. The annual corporate filing fee is $150 and is paid every year the corporation is active. Five years later he still has the suppressor, but with annual fees he has paid $820 in initial filing and annual fees and will continue to pay $150 per year for as long as he wants to keep the suppressor. This is a lot of money for a $300 suppressor. Filing fees and annual fees for Corporations or LLCs may be different in your state, but the point is that once the Trust is established there are generally no further fees to maintain it.

In a typical Revocable Trust where you act as your own Trustee, there is no separate Federal tax return to be filed and any profit or loss incurred by the trust is passed through on your individual tax return. With a Corporation or LLC, you may be required to file state or federal tax returns, depending on your jurisdiction and the activities of the corporation. This too can be an added expense that using a Trust may avoid.

A Trust also has the benefit of being able to manage or distribute the Trust assets upon your death or incapacity. If you own NFA items in a Corporation and die, then your interest in that Corporation, and accordingly the assets held by the Corporation, will likely be subject to Probate. For those not familiar with Probate, it is the court authorized procedure where the assets of a deceased person are collected; their debts are paid, and the remaining assets are distributed to their beneficiaries pursuant to the terms of their will or in absence thereof, pursuant to the terms of state law. The duration and cost of this process may vary from state to state, but it is generally not cheap. By placing NFA items into a Trust, you can direct where those items are to go upon your death without fear of the high cost of probate. Revocable Trusts are a common tool used by estate planning attorneys across the country to help their clients avoid probate. The author has prepared many trusts for individuals, as part of their general estate plan, which they have used for the dual purpose of avoiding probate on their estate as a whole as well as to purchase NFA items.

Like a Corporation, there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer to a Revocable Trust. However, like a corporation, you must submit proof of the existence of the entity (be it a trust or corporation) with your Form 4. While many practitioners will advise the purchaser to simply submit a Certificate of Trust (typically a short one page notarized document confirming the existence of the trust and identifying the Trustee) as proof, the author recommends that you submit a full copy of the trust itself to avoid any questions from ATF as to the legitimacy and existence of the Trust. While some are uneasy about submitting a copy of their Trust with the Form 4, the author has had no issues with this practice. Additionally, as the Form 4 is essentially a tax document, the Form 4 and the documents accompanying it would be deemed private tax information between you and the ATF. The last question the author is often presented with when discussing a Revocable Trust for NFA ownership is the subject of a professionally prepared Trust versus a self-prepared document. Depending upon the complexity of the Trust provisions regarding the management and distributions of the NFA items and whether the Trust is also being used for general estate planning purposes, in many areas the cost can run as little as a few hundred dollars. It has been the author's experience that many of the forms and computer programs available for drafting trusts and other legal documents provide just enough information to be dangerous. Like a wise man has said, you get what you pay for. While doing it yourself may save a few bucks, doing it wrong can cost you quite a bit more in legal fees or even your freedom. The author generally provides a prospective client with two pieces of free advice when asked about do-it-yourself documents. One is that you do not have to use the author, but do yourself a favor and use an attorney with experience in Trust preparation. The other is that if the cost of correctly preparing the documentation scares you, perhaps NFA is not the hobby for you.

Use of the Revocable Trust of NFA purchases is not new but rather is something that many were, until recently, unaware of. The Author has seen an increasing number of questions about its use on various websites along with an increasing number of well intentioned but misleading or incorrect answers. This article is intended to address many of those questions and provide an overview of the general traits and benefits of using a Revocable Trust for NFA ownership. Before proceeding however, you should always seek competent legal advice in your jurisdiction to determine if it is right for you.

Mark Barnes is an attorney with over 20 years experience. He began his career in public policy serving in both the legislative and executive branches of federal government. His firm, Mark Barnes and Associates, is located in Washington, D. C. and has been specializing in all aspects of federal firearms law since 1993. He can be contacted at MarkB17@aol. com. l. 10 No. 6• March 2007.
_________________________________________________________________

Having shared the above, none of it supercedes or allows the "individual" to get around local; state laws and ordinances governing NFAs if they are deemed illegal; not authorized for ownership.l

Therefore, as far as I know.... my "goose is cooked"; I cannot purchase, own, or even transport an MG, SBS, or SBR since I reside in Washington State.

No. It doesn't provide any extra allowances.




So does a trust. I've got a machine gun, SBR, and suppressor. The first as private citizen, the last two under a trust.

Here's what I sent to another member a while back...

I have moved to an area that has already put out that they won't sign so don't bother asking and I was a bit bummed out since there are more things out there that I want and its my right to own them in KY. Then I found this discussion, I suggest you read the whole thing whenever you have time, it spells it out pretty well including some examples. (page 3 and 31 give examples of the Forms, pg 31 also has links to someone's Trust who's already done it using Quicken Willmaker)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&...9942&page=1

I've admittedly read it several times Basically it says that you can form a "revocable living trust" through either a lawyer (big ) or using software (I used Willmaker bought from Ebay) and then whenever you have NFA stuff transfered, you transfer it to the trust. The trust is in your name and you have total control of the trust assets (guns). You have language in there that says where the items in the trust go when you die, you can split it however you want, similar to a Will and just like a Will you can amend it and make changes as needed. In the Trust there is a page called "Schedule A" that lists the trust's assets that you update whenever you buy/sell things.

THE ADVANTAGE is you need no CLEO signature, fingerprints, or photo for transfers. You still have to pay the $200 and the transferee is John Doe Revocable Living Trust or whatever instead of just you. State laws vary though. Everyone needs their trust notorized when they sign it and some states require you to file a copy, my state doesn't. The software knew everything I needed to do and made it super easy. I created my Trust and Certification of Trust (short form saying the trust exists) and had them both norized free at my bank. I've sent in a Form 1 to make a SBR and transferred a suppressor on a Form 4. You just have to include a copy of the Certfication of Trust whenever you send in a form, NOT the whole Trust. Its totally legal and a great alternative for those that can't get CLEO signatures.

Some people recommend forming a Corporation, they say its easy and it gives DUAL POSSESSION, as in you form a corp and make your friends all board members and they get to borrow your NFA stuff. BUT, I decided against this route since you have alot of fees in forming, yearly taxes that must be done by a CPA, annual local fees, and other requirements like minutes from meetings. With a trust, only I'm allowed to possess the guns, but, it only cost very little in setup and no further requiremnts or money. Some people think if you are married and set up a joint trust then you AND you're wife own the NFA stuff, but the ATF says the law makes no allowance for this in a letter dated Sept 9, 1999 stating-

"The National Firearms Act provides
that, for any person legally to receive or possess an NFA firearm,
such firearm must be registered to him in the National Firearms
Registration and Transfer Record... For purposes of these
statutory provisions, the term "person" is defined as "[a]
partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation,
as well as a natural person. See 27 C.F.R. section 179.11. This
definition does not include married couple or, for that matter, any
other dual or multi-party entities with the exception of formally
established partnerships, companies, associations, and
corporations. Indeed, there exists no statutory or regulatory
authority that can be construed to permit the transfer or
registration of an NFA firearm, on a joint basis, to two or more
natural persons, including two natural persons constituting a
married couple. Accordingly, such transfers and registrations
cannot be approved.


Oh, and if this wasn't great enough, transfers to Trusts are FASTER than those to individuals! It takes about 35 days.

THAT'S what I figured. Many thanks KySoldier!

Oh bloody-well? My dream of owning and cherishing a SBS is shot-to-shit.... but I'll get over it.

Gary
Never EVER get over it.

Get POLITICAL!

Gary - We "mere citizens" can't own SBR/SBS or MGs, but AOWs are legal.

Washington State Attorney General Opinion

This means that the Serbu Super Shorty is legal.




Also, it would be possible to buy a "pistol grip SBS", like a Tromix SBS IF it is "a weapon that as originally manufactured is not intended to be fired from the shoulder is neither a shotgun nor a short-barreled shotgun."

I know in Serbus case, they get around this law by purchasing the "shotgun"with pistol grip from the factory, then shortening them.

That'd be awesome if Saigas had the option to be ordered by Class 3s with a pistol grip, then those of us behind enemy lines could line up for semi-auto, short-barreled, smooth-bore, AOW goodness.

It would be nice for those who want to go pistol if there were a USA made reciever. Register the virgin as whatever you want.

Amen G O B!!

A heck of a THANK YOU goes out to busy_squirrel!

I'm always amazed.... but the stuff and information that I ignorantly don't know about. busy_squirrel you've made my day!

~Gary

Hey busy_squirrel - After doing some internet searching, I think I like the below AOW Remington a bit better than the SERBU option. It's the REMINGTON 870LM 12ga Breeching Firearm. Whadda think?

I prefer the Serbu because I've fired 3" magnums outta a eight inch barrel or so before, and got tired of my glove slipping off the front of the gun at the same time an explosion is exiting the barrel.



I like the folding vertical grip idea. The Serbu is 16.5" OAL with a 6.5"bbl but only a 2 + 1 capacity. It's $750 +shipping +WA sales tax +5 AOW stamp



Another option is:

Elite Tactical Systems (in TN) makes this Rem 870 with an OAL of 23.5". It has a 11 7/8 barrel and 4 + 1 cap. It does not come with the Mesa Tactical shell holder though ETS says they will install one for you, if you like, for more money of course. The front strap design has also changed slightly to this:

With Speedfeed "whippet" grip like in the picture it's $550 +shipping +Class 3 fees +5 AOW stamp.
Or you can get it with dual vertical grips, it's $500 +shipping +Class 3 fees +5 AOW stamp.

If you're on a budget, this model seems to be the way to go.




But I hadn't read anything on the 870LM. Got anymore info? OAL? bbl length? capacity? price?

I just got my form1 SBR approval back via the Revocable Trust method. While it is a very easy document to produce with a program such as Willmaker its important to have a lawyer in your state review it. Last thing you want to happen is for the document not to stand up in court if it was ever examined. With the growing popularity of the Trust method the ATF is beginning to look more cloesly at the documents. You must now include a copy of the entire document when you submit the form1.

Also remember you have to name the beneficiary that will get the property upon your death. You must make sure they know the procedure they have to go thru to legally transfer the NFA items.

Here's my two SBRs that I did on a trust. Thanks to KYSoldier for the help he provided. And, here's a great link of how-to for the process (don't worry... it's short and schweet).

EDIT: I tried to post the URL link but I guess it's too long of an address and it won't work. Anyways... just Google the words "arizona nfa trust" and it's the first link that comes up.

After some careful consideration I'm thinking of starting a Revocable Trust. Has anyone in North Carolina done this before, I'm very interested in discussing this with you if so? Please PM me contact info or I can offer mine.

Thanks!

Form 4 & TRUST mailed off today!!!

I'll keep a time line to see how long this takes!!

Good Luck!

Bout time!

Mailed 3/21/08
Check Cashed 3/26/08!!

My Form 4 is now PENDING as of 04/30/08 !!!!!

They are cool...!


I know if I had a prohibited endorsement back home in Canada, I could walk right in to my favorite dealer and just buy it... no NFA crap to deal with...


A bunch of us have been contacting .gov employees in WA state to get the retarded suppressor laws changed so that we can actually USE a suppressor we own on a firearm instead of just having one as a paper weight...

check it out:
Let's Change Washington State's Silencer Laws
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331390

My trust was formed 3/3/8 and the Super Shorty was purchased the same day. Check was cashed mid-March, but still no word. I'll update when I hear something.

I kinda think the problem is a state level one, as WA was not officially recognize AOWs inside of most firearms laws.

Dammit I was going to use my corp. but I know now that the Trust is better, so I ordered Will Maker 2008 so I could get my mac suppressor and SBS saiga. Just put it on the computer and started when I ran into this.

Your Legal Residence
Your legal residence, also called your "domicile," is the state where you live now and intend to keep living.
Your choice here affects many aspects of your living trust, including the ways you can set up management for any trust property that young beneficiaries may inherit and, if you are married, what property belongs to each spouse.
(You may notice that the list of states doesn't include Louisiana. We didn't forget it -- but because Louisiana law is fundamentally different from all other states, you can't use Quicken WillMaker's trust if you live there.)

So I have a new copy of Quicken WillMaker for sale.

Hello new here, I set up a trust with Bob Howell who wrote the article earlier posted on this thread,. I would highly recommend him not only because he is highly intelligent but also he is truly a down to earth guy who loves discussing firearms and is amazingly knowledgeable about firearms. He goes to knob hill every year and knows just about all the who's who in the industry. After he set up my trust he even was able to get me a great deal on a gemtech g5 can by speaking directly to the CEO who is is buddy. I am a real estate attorney in Florida and even with my law degree I felt far more secure with Bob setting up my trust ( and also you save 200 dollars annual with a trust as opposed to other forms of incorporation, no finger prints or sign off by sheriff, Google his name for contact info. Good Luck and do it before the ATF closes this loophole!

WHATS UP PEOPLE. I'M GETTING READY TO BUY MY FIRST CLASS III FIREARM, THE SAIGA 12. THAT WEAPON IS SO COOL. I'M NOT REALLY LIKING THE STOCK VERSION. THE SKELETON STOCK, AND A PICITINNEY RAIL WITH A VERTICAL GRIP, ARE WHAT I'M WANTING TO ADD ON. MY QUESTION IS, CAN THOSE ITEMS BE INSTALLED BY ANYONE OR WILL I NEED TO SEND IT TO A GUNSMITH?

WHATS UP PEOPLE. I'M GETTING READY TO BUY MY FIRST CLASS III FIREARM, THE SAIGA 12. THAT WEAPON IS SO COOL. I'M NOT REALLY LIKING THE STOCK VERSION. THE SKELETON STOCK, AND A PICITINNEY RAIL WITH A VERTICAL GRIP, ARE WHAT I'M WANTING TO ADD ON. MY QUESTION IS, CAN THOSE ITEMS BE INSTALLED BY ANYONE OR WILL I NEED TO SEND IT TO A GUNSMITH?

Any updates on the Form 4?

Well, I have had my HTG Cycle-2 9mm can for a while and absolutly LOVE IT!! My Beretta 92FS sounds like a paint ball gun with an almost empty tank when firing Alabama Ammo's Special K 147gr sub-sonics.

Next up is...

1. NFA Item: Tactical Innovations Quest SS .22lr Suppessor
2. Form Type: Form 4
3. Transferee Type: RLT
4. Paid for Item: 7/22/2008
5. Form 4 Sent: 8/20/2008
6. Delivered: 8/22/08 14:05
7. Check Cashed: 8/26/2008
8. Pending Date: 9/29/2008
9. Approved Date:
10. Forms Received:
11. Picked up from Dealer:
12. Examiner Name: Ted Clutter