Do they exist?

Military caliber weapons are forbidden in Russia (and a lot of other countries).

There aren't enough 5.45x39 civilian rifles in the world to make it worth Izhmash' while to produce a Saiga in 5.45x39

I thought about that, but also thought it might be a good market for them since the choices of 5.45x39 rifles is a lot slimmer. It would seem to me that any country which would consider 5.45x39 a military cartridge & ban it, would also consider 7.62x39 a military cartridge.

The Russian Saigas in 7.62x39 have a weird chamber that stamps each fired casing for later identification. I suspect this has something to with Izhmash and Russian politicians.

5.45x39 is perfectly fine for the european market. as such, Izhmash does make civilian versions, but only few (i suspect they only churn out batches of those very once in a long while) and it's very unlikely that you'll find those in northern america.

I wonder how hard it would be to convert a .223 Saiga over to 5.45x39...the money you would save on ammo could add up quick.

Believe it or not, it's easier converting from a 7.62x39 Saiga. . .

(you're gonna have to change the barrel for any conversion)

double post removed

So what would it take to convert a 7.62x39 Saiga? Is it a simple as removing the rivets for the barrel, pulling the barrel & putting on the barrel/gas block for a 5.45, and riveting it in place? If so that would accomplish several things.
1) Change of caliber.
2) Add the handguard retainers.
3) Add a barrel which is already threaded for a brake.
4) Add the bayonet lug & cleaning rod hardware.

In the long run, if you have the tools in this might actually be cheaper than some of the conversion work we already do on a Saiga.


I know the rims are different sizes, but I have heard a 7.62x39 bolt will work on 5.45. Haven't confirmed it.

the 223 Saiga bolt is essentially a 5.45 bolt with a modified extractor.The 223 Saiga is the one to use not the 7.62x39.

5.45 barrel
5.45 feedramp
5.45 extractor or complete bolt assembly

I have converted a couple of 5.45 AK74s to 223 and this was all I had to change.I can't imagine the reverse process would be any different.

I have a 5.45 bolt and barrel(brand new K-Var) if you are interested in some horse trading send me a PM

I beg to disagree.

Visit some of the other AK forums and read up on this procedure.

I never heard of a 5.45 saiga, but about 5.45 and european market... nah. Some AK countries other than russia did make the switch for 5.45, but there isn't really as much of a surplus ammo market as in the US. An 5.45 rifle in civilian hands is a real curioso in europe, and i have never seen or heard of one, other than deactivated military examples. Nobody is using 5.45 other than certain militaries.

So that explains it. I always wondered how Izhmash got around the "no military caliber" restriction with 7.62x39.

Not knockin' Saigas, but if you want a 5.45x39 why not get a Tantal?

Or even a WASR, they make those in 5.45 too.

don't know about the situation around Hungary, so i wont comment on that Agias, but here in Belgium you can easily get an AK74 (amongst other things) if you have the proper license.

and the belgian distributor also had some 5.45mm saigas.

it's true that the surplus sold for these weapons are not common and supply comes & goes. But Luxemburg usually has more than enough to satisfy your needs, if the belgian stores were to run dry.

Yeah, Bulgaria is one of those countries who made the switch, so i kind of expected you guys to have some. Ukraine also makes a 5.45 AKS-74u clone and there's commercial ammo for it but, not as commonly and cheaply available in most parts of the east and central as 7.62 so they don't seem to be too popular.

Do the Bulgarian laws allow full autos? And did you say the Belgians get 5.45 saigas? That's something i didn't know

i never talked about Bulgarians. Belgium is not Bulgaria.

but yes, belgians can own all manner of AKs, as long as they are converted to semi-auto. calibre doesn't matter. length does. rifles needs to be 60cm overall (with stock folded) and has to have a barrel of 30cm. as such, an AK104 for instance is just within spec if you put the right muzzle brake on it.

with a special collection license you can also own the full autos, BUT you can't shoot them. lol. kinda useless then.

Can you not shoot them at all, or not shoot them in the auto setting? Of course, if you can own them and can own suppressors there might be a way around the problem...

What's the penalty if you legally own one & get caught shooting it?

can't shoot the full-auto ones at all. can't even own ammo in the calibre the full-auto one is in (unless you own another semi-auto one in the same calibre).

loosing all your guns and rights to own guns, i suspect.

but there are ways around it. a gunsmith can legally fire your gun, so basically you take it to the gunsmith, close off the range and stop the video recorder (pretty much all ranges have cameras), then shoot it anyway?

I think I'd want to be a gunsmith then. What's it take to legally be a gunsmith so you can shoot your full auto toys?

Lol, that's cruel. I couldn't stand the temptation. "here, you can own the toy of your dreams but oh, don't use it"

I could stand it. I work for a C3 dealer/range. If I could buy cheap, functional machineguns, I would make sure they were checked out by a gunsmith on a regular basis.

don't really know, but i'm pretty sure it involves showing that you're actually going to run a shop of some kind.

not to mention that the price you'd probably pay for the gunsmithing license would likely be enough to keep all the non-serious people out.

Actually the 7.62x39 caliber isn't the standard military cartridge in Russia anymore so THAT is how they get around the "no military caliber" restriction...because it's not one. The 5.45 on the other hand is and they can't own any of it. The 7.62x39 Saiga has been around a lot longer than the chamber stamps. The newer TIGRs have the chamber stamping too on the rifle cases.




The case on the left was fired by an SVD and the one on the right by a newer TIGR with the case imprinting ring on it's neck just above the shoulder.

We can only hope....

Don't be surprised if some factory 5.45's pop up in the future.........not the near future so don't try to order them......but in "The" future.......nuff said.

This intrigues me Naolith, I've been on a bunch of other forums, but never came across info like this. Can you post a link or at least point me in the right direction?

You can post my PM here, as I seem to have lost it.