I would like to issue a formal Apology to Suarez International, our newest business member, for the poor reception that he has received, after his decision to advertise with us on our forum.

As a Moderator, it has been my duty to uphold the rules of our forum and to recruit new membership into this potentially lucrative environment. I know that I have my own fair share of fun and goofy-ness and I know that I have made some emotionally-charged posts as well, but I do try to conduct myself as a professional when it is needed. Most of us here have been in intense discussions.

I try to do what I think Max would want me to do for his forum. I feel this is a time for formality.

My intentions of bringing you (Gabe) on this board was for the best interests of the SAIGA board itself and the SAIGA shooting community as a whole. You bring a dynamic to the community that we have been sorely lacking in. That being your years of experience, not only as an armed professional but as a tactical trainer as well.

I know that there have been differences in the past between our board and Warrior Talk. As you know I did what I could to smooth that over as well. Apparently there are DEEP rooted issues going on here, beyond what I could have ever comprehended. I feel that this goes beyond my abilities as a humble Moderator to address.

Please know that you do have a large amount of supporters on this board, some of them are leaders in the industry. But along with that comes those with the opposite feelings. However, there is a difference between offering constructive criticism in a tactful manner (versus) an all-out attack meant to try to dis-credit and humiliate you as a professional. There will always be differences in opinions on how training should be approached---but I feel it has gone far beyond that, here.

I know that I actively recruited you thinking that this would be a sound, financial opportunity for you and your business. I HOPE that we can weather this storm and move on!!! If not, please know that I am more than willing to personally refund your investment here on this board. I am embarrassed on how things went down here, and I can only offer my resignation as a Moderator for any inability that I may have had on controlling the issue. I cannot be on the board 24 hours a day! Ultimately I did remove the thread until the forum owner can return and handle it, his way.

Regardless of who it is that I bring on board...... I did extend to you as a professional, an environment for you to conduct business in. I had no comprehension of the level of ugliness that people were willing to go. Digging in the past etc.....As a Moderator, I need to uphold the levels that Max set forth. If that can not be done, it reflects negatively upon me. People need to put personal differences aside. I have been unable to carry out my word to you in this position. The only thing I feel I can do at this point in time is to step down as Moderator and if you decide to leave the SAIGA forum-personally refund your money. More than anything I hope that this has not caused you any personal or professional embarrassment.

I know if we continue to treat new Business Members in such a manner, we will be cutting our OWN throat. NO ONE will want to conduct business here.

God Bless and Semper Fi,
Andrew Toth

Classy post Juggernaut

I don't have a beef with folks on either side of this. I always prefer to listen to opposing views on subjects.
I am hopeful that Gabe sticks with the business membership and finds it beneficial. I also hope our Saiga community will benefit from his views and ideas.

An open forum where a variety of opinions can be expressed is a sign of strength and vitality in an idea/product/movement.
Ive seen many sites where a common belief system becomes so strong among a critical mass of members that they ritually shout down, intimidate, or ridicule anyone who dares post conflicting "heresy"

The cursing and name calling reminds me of middle school kids and makes me want to avoid a site that I enjoy.
I wish folks would just address the technique, idea, etc. that they agree/disagree with and not make personal attacks/remarks that have NO bearing on how we modify, use, or abuse our beloved Saigas!
I think most members would benefit more from posts addressing a specific issue rather than emotional rants about personailties.

Lets have a big tent folks

Cheers, HarvKY

Group hug!

Great post Juggs!

Sorry you had to make it.

And Agias, uh....NOT!

I guessed I missed something. The only thing I saw lately pertaining to Gabe was Jugg's "Welcome" thread.....................and now this.

+1 to Harv's first line!

I leave town for the weekend and ??????????????????

anonymous

We were all a bit bad. Can we come out of time out yet? Juggs is a fine Moderator, even when he is chastising me, I know he is doing his job. There is a United States Supreme Court case which addresses how an Assistant United States Attorney is supposed to behave. It basically said that the AUSA could strike hard blows, just not foul blows. That goes for here, too. If what you say is the truth, fine. That can be considered a hard and fair blow. If it is speculation or purely opinion, yet mean spirited, argumentative and unnecessary to civilized discussion it is likely a foul blow. If this is the case, take your fingers off of the keyboard, call you dog and tell the dog what you wanted to type and resist the urge to type it here. Or, go reload some ammo until you feel better.


Maybe be need an intervention team to help rescue those who just can't resist the foul blows.


WJ

Well if Juggs wants to resign because of all this crap then I'm gone too. It's a shame that someone came into our house slinging insults and asking for a fight (literally) and we, as mods (who's number one job is to look out for the forum and it's members, not rack up as much money as possible) are supposed to just sit back and let that happen. It's a crying shame.
I'm sorry too Gabe, sorry I didn't can that offensive thread just as soon as it turned ugly.

I guess I have to apologize too. We are not F'tards here, we are loyal members. I hope everything straightens out. Mostly for the new members and all the mods.

Like I said, I didn't even see the thread (I don't think so anyway) that people are talking about, but losing Juggs and Cobra seems a bit rash. Even if it is voluntary.

Can those of us not "in the know" get the cliff-notes to what happened, or is it out of line to ask that?

Did shit-slinging start in the original "Welcome, Gabe" thread or what?

Being a small fish in a big pond, I don't have much of a right to say a whole lot on stuff like this but I will say that from what I have seen, Juggernaut is a very good moderator, and I am sorry to see it come to this. I hope things can be worked through and things settle down.

As far as Gabe Suarez, I am not necessarily a follower, my years of trying to be a street fighter are pretty well over, but I do subscribe to his news letter, and have learned things from it. To me that is good, and who says that there is only one way to do things? Different styles or methods can bring the same results, its just a matter of which a person prefers.

I have found it a good thing to read everything, accept and learn the things I feel are beneficial to me and just pass the rest, it may be someone else's cup of tea.

Guys, this is a loose run ship and its good that it is, but sometimes when you push too hard, you rock the boat, which is not good for anyone.

Juggernaut and the Warrior Judge put it very well. I hope others see it that way too.

Juggernaut, without you and Cobra this place would be a madhouse! Don't fall on your sword for someone else's actions.

Dammit Cobra, you posted while I was writing...... not you too! Guys don't deny us good leadership because of someone else's actions. Punish them not us!

EDIT

This appears more complicated than I first thought, I am shutting the fuck up and backing away slowly, with my hands held out in the open in a non agressive manner.

I guess I missed something?

All I can say about Gabe is this;

I have been lucky enough to train with many people, who conscribe to many different systems, and have found the majority of trianers to be seriously set in their ways and in many ways lacking what I was looking for; REALITY based training. You know, the guys that tell you not to use a 9mm because the bigger slower .45 does more damage, but one minute later tell you that the .223 is superior to the 7.62x39?! And the guys that have you draw from a perfectly balanced stance and shoot paper, or the tactical "urban" rifle classes where you shoot 200-400 yard targets in prone. The ones that teach you to manipulate your safety or decocker 20 freeken times in a tactical situation and then tell you when the SHTF you wont be able to perform tasks involving manual deterity?! What about one of the more famous schools that teach you that glocks are dangerous to carry because of a lack of manual safety! We had a local trainer (Chuck Taylor guy), who would tell us that the Reminton 870 is unreliable and to go buy a Mossy, stating that the 870s never finish the class; I guess mine was the first???? And why do they tell you that everyone elses training will get you killed?

As I also started to garner a appreciation for the AK system, it became apparent that Gunsite, luis A, the Chuck Taylor gang, and all the rest really had no knowledge of the AK system; they just taught you to run it like an AR and seemed offended that you brought that "peasant weapon" to thier class.

This is where Gabe filled the void for me. Gabe perfected the use of force-on-force training. When I did my first FOF class with Gabe, I tried the techniques I learned from police instuctors and all of the "popular" gun "gurus" of the day, and I got shot every time! By the end of that class, I was begining to survive most of the scenarios. At first, almost EVERY instructor and school flamed Gabe and his reality based training style - almost every board on the internet was rife with insults about how stupid his training was. Now guess what - THEY ALL USE IT, and many claim to have developed it!! When I told an instructor that I did FOF with Gabe a while back (after he claimed to invent it), he simply said "that guy is a criminal, who would believe him".

Last year I did AK training with Gabe, and was simply amazed. I had been told my whole life that the saftey is one of the main disadvantages of the AK - Gabe teaches that it is actually an advantage and part of the design; you turn safety off when SHTF and back on when the situation is over, during the time in between it sits out of the way. Manipulating the saftey back and forth constanly is something AR gurus teach, Gabe tosed that out. Shooting takes place at short ranges, even point-blank ranges as this is where most situations take place. Gabe runs the AK platform very fluid and helps you realize its full potential.

Gabe completely threw almost all the the old school firearms thought out, and built a program up from scratch. Sure people hated that, but now they all copy him. I saw it at a class I took last month. He even does interviews with real life SHTF survivors (like Katrina and even the Korean store owners during the LA riots that shot thugs from their roofs) and relays what he learned to students - and lets individuals make up their own minds.

Gabe has never insulted another trainer or school in my presence, and encourages you to train at different places. The first thing Gabe says is that if you find a better way to do it, he is more than willing to try, his training is not static and he is not set in his ways. He treats everyone with more respect than any instructor I have ever worked with.

He will not insult you or regress to demeaning you because of you choice of weapon for the class. If you bring an old SKS to his class, he will teach you to fight with it and you will be keeping up with the AKs and ARs by the end of the class. He will teach you to fight with what you have regardless of your financial status.

We all have pasts and thats a fact. Its easy to be judgemental when we are not judgeing ourselves by the same criteria. In my experiences, which is all I have to go by, he is a great guy. All it takes is one stinging bee to get the whole hive into attack mode, I guess thats one of the problems with internet forums.

Damn DD.

Where were you when we needed you earlier?

+1

i always seem to be the last to know. if only they hadnt put that pos web filter in at work!!!

I apologize that there hasnt been a response to the memberships' inquiries as of yet. I am sure it will be forthcoming, in more aspects.

Mr Suarez has become a Business Member of this forum, and was actually attacked in a verbal fashion by several members here upon doing so. This has been addressed by the staff of this forum, and me having dealt with the ongoing issues here for so long, have seen it unfold, and know about the various factors involved.

I would strongly suggest that in the future, that anyone insulting a business member of this forum, or staff member addressing ANY vendor in the firearms community, do so in good taste.


The staff is handling this matter, in a timely and serious fashion, and it is nothing to worry yourselves about, is all I can really say, or know. I also can say that it is a serious and current issue that is being addressed RIGHT NOW, so I thought that I would try to respond in an unoffcial extent, to your inquires. I am sure the staff of this forum can and will address this further. I personally, hope to see more of Mr. Suarez's thoughts on gunfighting posted on this forum, as it applies to the saiga platform, especially in how they apply to the Saiga shotguns, and all of us "peons" that are only there to help when the time may come....


Dont you worry about what happened. I know that the staff here is trying to, and will correct the situation ASAP. I used to lose sleep over things like this, and I can tell that they are discussing it right now. This translates to a good thing in a big way, for all of the rest of us, myself included.

I expect this to be the last "ticket" that I am officially involved in, in any way shape or form, for this forum. I am only stating this now, and above, to try to help people understand that something bad has happened, and that it is in fact being addressed, and worked out with unsaid parties. If I were on staff still, now, I would fire the whole lot, as I have done so in the past. But that is not the case, and as such, I am entitled to my opinions now.....

These guys are restructuring the staff and the duties here at the forums, please give them a break, will ya? I can attest that this place is at LEAST a part time job for some, and a full time job for others, and is vastly unrewarded (or was when I was still on staff, at least).

Patience....have some of it.

All I can say for Gabe? Is hands on, and practical knowledge is a HELL of a thing. You may want to listen to this man's unorthodox techniques. Attitude or not.

Oh, that? I've only see that up to that point. I wouldn't have tought it would evolve into e-drama like this. You guys might be taking this too seriously.

+1

I missed the whole shebang, but c'mon guys, I'm sure a "warrior" like Gabe can take a little forum abuse; no matter who it comes from.

Hmmm...I like this list 'cause it's pretty much down-to-earth, and for the most part, informative and light-hearted at the same time.
I never envisioned this list, or the membership, as being part of a "business machine".
Frankly, although I have not been here nearly as long as some of you, almost without exception during my time here, the "friction" has been because of a "business enterprise" of some sort conflicting with members or moderators or whatever.
Seems to me that a little less emphasis on business $$$ and a little more consideration toward the minions that make this list viable might not be a bad direction.

I'd certainly be willing to increase my donations to the list if I felt it were "our" list as opposed to an advertising vehicle.

JMHO.....

guido2 in Houston

IMHO, this thing has ground along to a point where it's time where everyone should just let it be done..........
There's been bullshit from both sides on this issue, and not just from the members of the S-12 Forum...... We've been called a bunch of monkeys on WarriorTalk within the last week............and there's been a bunch of trashtalking about Gabe on here, too..........

Gabe is now a business member, and like his stuff or not, he's put his money where his mouth is.........If you don't like his stuff, or you don't like him.....just don't participate in his Forum activities. Time will tell how it'll work out, and all the
badmouthing (on both sides) won't accomplish shit. Let's all just move on, and it'll work out as it should.

My $.02

Jeaux

Very well said Guido2. VERY!

WTH?! I just refreshed the page after reading nicklebon's run-down of what happened, and now it's gone.

Juggs and Cobra. I hope both of you remain. This place would lose a vital part of it's heart and soul without you being here. There certainly do appear to be some problems and I hope we can move forward professionally with everyone on board. If there is no way you can get along, the ignore feature is a great one...

Yeah strange. I wonder why it got moderated out... anyways, i've preserved the first three lines for future generations.

'Cause it's time to move on not to dwell on past history...

+1

I haven't been here for too long yet, but i already can't imagine this place without Juggernaut and Cobra.

Please know that everything between Cobra, myself and/or anyone on staff (or staff advisers ) is fine.
We have no quarrel with one another.

Simply, I gave my word as a man about this place.
I kindly asked for hostilities to cease and desist, they did not.
Hence, I am unable to keep my word.
My word is the only thing I truly have to give.
I want it to be of some value....

Basically a good thread gone bad...I moved it...

Juggs, I'm not attacking you as I have no problem with the way you moderate here. But, you know the kind of treatment some of our members here have gotten at Gabe's board, so telling Gabe that there would be no ill will toward him is a little wishful thinking. It'd go a long way if Gabe himself made a post apologizing for the way he treated too many of our members.

Don't carry the burden for a seed you never planted...

Sorry Juggs, long day pressure washing in the hot sun left me incapable of phrasing simple English. I meant to address that to the two sides in the conflict not yourself and Cobra. My apologies for my lack of clarity!

Where did your avatar and signature go?

I am being censored, so I apologize to you all for not sharing what really happened.

surely, still, my metal will be cold and hard, and your money green and thin......and all will be ok

good luck saiga-12.com! yer gonna need it!

I have edited this post

PLUS ONE!

Gabe is the one who should be apologizing (along with a few others who added to the problem). Make no mistake. This is not an attack on a business member, as I have been falsely accused of by some here (and their accusatory posts removed). This is a plea from someone right at the heart of this matter, who's responsibility here, is to protect the sanctity of THIS forum.
I was directly attacked, although not by name, it was very obvious. Other members here were attacked as well. Those who saw it before it was put in the trash can KNOW this is the truth.
How I handled it is not up for discussion.
At least he was not banned, like would have happened on the WT forum.

Now enough is enough! I am going to make the first move here right in front of everyone. How Gabe responds to that may end up dictating how well he does here with his business.

Gabe I am sorry. I allowed others before I posted, to openly express their dislike of you, and after you posted, and I was enraged by what you said and I jumped right in the frey...like I'm supposed to do. You asked for the flaming to begin and it damn sure did. You got what you wished for. If you had kept the beginning and the end parts out of your post, I would never have stepped in at all and things would have gone a lot differently. Anyone who comes here with that kind of attitude can expect to get reamed by half the membership here.
In hindsight, I should have just issued you a warning and sent you a PM. But I had something very important to say and I said it. I notice you became a business member here right after that.

NOW it's time to put it all to bed and MOVE ON.

Now that you have that status here on our forum I expect all negative talk about you here to stop. I will be the first to say it to the folks who tried to stick up for me....thanks guys but enough already....it's time to leave it ALL in the past where it belongs. I can only hope the other side stops their attacks as well. I also expect to see the shit talking about this forum and it's members, come to an END on the WT forum. If you are to be a distinguished member here, then it does not look very professional of you to allow that to carry on any more. BOTH forums are devoted to talk about the AK and Saiga platform of weapons, and their uses. It is stupid and childish for us to be on two different sides of the same damned weapon!

There...you have my apology.

I also want to apologize to Juggs for having to be in the middle of all this while trying to be loyal to two warring factions who happen to both be his friends. It is not the first time that's happened to him. Being a mod here comes with it's own set of challenges and that is one of them. We have talked about all this on the phone tonite and all is good. Before we hung up we discussed how is the best way to get past all this BS and get on with things.



I have just done my part....


Gabe I wish you the best of luck with your ventures here and will defend your right not to be attacked, just like everyone else. Sincerely...welcome aboard.

Dwell on what? Half of the people here have no idea what happened.

Either way, glad to hear from Juggs that everything is good.

Word. Someone should probably lock this thread, just my humble opinion.

It will be locked, and then discarded, once the man of honor comes back to the table.

What is it about this forum that reminds me of a Jerry Springer trailer park scandal?

nice apology cobra

Harharhar...very funny. That will surely help everything.

Just don't forget that this forum full of trailer trash is where you got all those answers you were looking for in your S-12 and Saiga rifle conversions...

No doubt there is an a great amount of good info about Saigas on this forum.
I just do not understand why there is soo much fighting and it never seems
to stop. Its like WWF wresting.

From what i noticed as soon as money is involved it inevitably goes to shit every once in a while.

If i was Gabe i would have just ignored those negative comments, then the whole drama wouldn't have happened.

This Forum is comprised of a great number of very diverse people. It is unique in that there is very little censorship, and a extremely free exchange of ideas and opinions........... (THANK YOU, MAKC !!!)People are free to speak their minds here with no pressure to conform to one mindset. Strange to me that should be a cause to criticise, instead of celebrate....................

As a result of this unorthodox setup here..........there has been major innovation in the Saiga world............More info about Saigas here than anywhere..........

Well if fighting like school yard kiddies makes this place function to improve the
quality of Saiga ideas and advancements then have at it. I will agree that diversity
is good, I just can't see how drama helps. To each his own.

................Helps to just ignore the drama...........

Take what you want from it, and disregard the rest................... It's not that hard to figure what's what, and who's who.
Hang around a bit, and enjoy the show..............

Well just sit back and make some popcorn or something bro. The end is near. I personally am sick to death of the drama around here and it's going to be my number one goal to see that IT STOPS. You are definitely correct, there have been more stupid fights and drama here than just about anywhere else except the jerry springer show. I'm tired of it. The boss is tired of it. All you guys are tired of it. The rest of the gun forums are probably even tired of it, even though it provides them with lots of laughs I'm sure.

That's what I said...
It's high time to button it all up and move on. I'm gonna do my part.

In the future when we have trolls and troublemakers to deal with...we won't argue and fight with them. No...we will let them say what they want and then delete their posts. They will be issued warnings. If they do not heed those warnings they will be shown the exit. No fighting...no drama....just see ya....wouldn't wanna be ya. Come here to start trouble...you're gone, that's it.

People need to learn to show more respect for the staff here and their decisions. Our decisions are final and they are not up for a vote, nor open for discussion. Just like Juggs asked nicely for everyone to stop with the shit talking about Gabe. Nobody listened to him. The only thing I said negative to him after he was announced as a new business member, was a quote from another long time member here. I myself stopped talking to him directly and my only other posts in the thread were addressed to some of the membership here.You people, who want to continually tell us how to do our jobs, are the biggest part of the problems at saiga-12.com. Leave us alone and things will be fine.

HAHAHAH I bet Im gonna get blamed for this somehow!!! It sure sounds like it!!

+1, too much drama around here though it probably IS because there is very little censorship. Little censorship tends to draw a certain crowd...

Well, I'll be happy to blame you... It's gonna take a while to figure out how though...

Well, I saw the beginning of the welcome thread to Gabe Suarez, but missed the "big nasty". I don't know Mr. Suarez personally, have never met him or even talked over the phone, so I can't say what kind of person he is. I haven't spent any time on WT, but I registered tonight after reading so much of this thread, and will see for myself. If I am treated badly over there I will leave, I'm not leaving here for there. I've heard that he is opinionated, and also that he knows his shit. I been hearing that for many years.
I don't know Juggernaut either, I only know what he posts here. He seems to be an upstanding individual from what I've read.
I have pm'd back and forth with Cobra, as well as talked with him over the phone. While I suppose that is not the final measure of any of us, he also seems like an upstanding individual. I hope one day to meet him in person.
I don't know what happened at WT with members from here, and Cobra in particular. Suffice it to say that I understand Cobras feelings on the matter as I take him at his word.

We mostly try to act as adults, having learned that simple insults are merely childish expressions that don't solve anything, and often complicate things. However, in the heat of anger, even the best of us will temporarily lose control and slip to those expressions. The very nature of forums like this is that they attract mostly strong opinioned, "type A" folks, which tend to be the most inclined to go to the mat. The maturity is shown by those willing to stand up and admit their transgression and apologize.

I myself am a moderator on another forum, so I understand fully the difficulty sometimes it brings. I hope Juggernaut and Cobra don't end up quitting their mod status here, as they are both a huge input here, for the good. Juggernaut, while I realize that you are a man of your word, you cannot hold yourself accountable for the actions of others beyond your control. You said you told them to lay off, that's all you can do short of breaking out the mod editor. You do the best you can with what you have, and what you cannot do today, you get another chance tomorrow.


OK, enough rambling. I'm going to shut up now.

I was not going to post this but I felt compelled to do. I have no idea what happened. Not really my business. What is my business is with Drew? He is a good person and the first person that I started side conversations with off the board about just life stuff. Could not ask for anyone nicer. It seems like Juggs has taken one for the team on this. This was one of the only forums I frequently visit because of the lack of snobbery and attacks like other boards. I know that Juggs, Cobra, and other mods know the scope but when they talk about bailing it makes me feel like I have to guard my words if I continue to stay on the board. I know that everyone would agree this is not the purpose of the message board.