http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?f...w&pageId=72906


Investigators searching community for firearm used in murder
Posted: August 21, 2008
1:00 am Eastern

WorldNetDaily

Oklahoma police investigating the shooting deaths of two girls have told area residents with guns to bring them in for a test to determine whether they were used in the attack, sparking concern among those who own guns for hunting and self-defense.

According to reports in the Tulsa World the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation sent letters to members of the community who were registered as owning .40-caliber handguns suggesting they voluntarily bring in their gun or guns for a test.

The individuals who were "invited" to bring their guns in but didn't now will be included in the ongoing investigation, as well as people who were identified by former owners as having purchased that type of weapon recently, authorities said.

"We'll be checking on them," Jessica Brown, a spokeswoman for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, told the newspaper.

The investigation is into the June 8 shooting deaths of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13, who died when they were shot several times on a road about four miles from Weleetka. Authorities say two guns were used in the killings, but they haven't released much information about the weapons until they now confirmed one was a .40-caliber.

They have not yet identified the second type of weapon used.

Authorities said they sent out about 60 letters, and about 40 gun owners voluntarily brought in their weapons to the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah for testing over the weekend.

Brown said those weapons were taken by investigators and test-fired, and the results of those tests now are being evaluated. She said nearly half a dozen former gun owners contacted authorities to identify new owners, and another 15 gun owners did not show up.

Those who participated in a forum on the newspaper website expressed sympathy for the victims and their families, but worried about the maneuver of inspecting privately owned guns without a search warrant or probable cause.

"This is a really sad story. My heart goes out to the families involved," said one participant. "For some reason, though, it bothers me that 60 gun owners were asked to 'voluntarily' relinquish their legally-owned firearms."

Wrote a second, "Since when does Oklahoma have handgun registration? … I seriously hope they catch the vermin responsible for this, but I'm disturbed by the implication that Oklahoma, one of the most free states in the USA, has handgun registration."

Another, identified only as ok sooner and who reported spending time in law enforcement, added, "I would never 'voluntarily submit their weapons for testing.' Get a warrant."

"I'm with ok sooner," said a fourth. "I wouldn’t voluntarily submit my firearms to law enforcement without a warrant, either. This is really starting to bother me. Why ask 60 citizens to do this? Or maybe they're waiting for somebody to refuse to submit 'voluntarily' whereupon they do get a warrant."

On the forums page for the Oklahoma Shooters Association, the readers were even more alarmed.

"Why don't they just test fire all the .40 cal handguns in Oklahoma? Yeah, that's the ticket," said one person. "I hate to perhaps sound callous about the tragedy, that's not my intent at all, but this is some of the goofiest stuff I've ever heard of."

"What the OSBI stupidly did was ensure that, if the real murderer still has the murder weapon and got one of these letters, he will now WITHOUT DOUBT destroy it POST HASTE," said another.

"Human beings can only interact with one another through two methods: reason or force. If at any point, either party chooses force, the other must either submit or respond with force," warned another participant. "I prefer reason. But I am ready to respond with force. Submission is not an option."

"The issue of private control of firearms in the United States has been a hot topic this year in light of the Washington, D.C., dispute over a complete ban on private handguns. In that case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that individuals in the United States do have the right to bear arms, although that right can be regulated.

The District of Columbia city council promptly adopted emergency legislation that would replace its handgun ban with a laundry list of regulations and requirements, including several described by the Gun Owners of America as equally unconstitutional to the ban.

Those include a gun license requirement, a ban on semiautomatics, new ballistics requirements, requirements for trigger locks and requirements to keep guns unloaded.

"It's no wonder that the District is awash with lawlessness. The contempt for the law starts in the city council chambers," said GOA Executive Director Larry Pratt.

The Supreme Court ruling was the first definitive statement on the 2nd Amendment in decades. The court said, in Justice Antonin Scalia's majority opinion, the Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home."

Scalia was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas. Joining Justice John Paul Stevens in dissent were Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter.

The amendment, ratified in 1791, says: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

And phase one of the Dems gun registration goes into effect........

Not to mention that the government now has "submitted" foresnic evdience on those handguns for future harassment of law abiding citizens.

World Net Daily = National Enquirer

Is there a story on this from a reliable source?

Didn't the Enquirer break the Edwards story?

I know, I know, something and a dog's rear end and the sun.

Here, I know they aren't the post or the times.
http://www.edmondsun.com/statenews/local_s..._233112751.html
http://www.news-star.com/statenews/x122299...-to-create-list
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.asp...62&allcom=1
http://newsok.com/gun-tests-may-solve-wele.../?tm=1219122376

reason for edit: posting some article links.

Regardless, it illustrates one of the reasons to resist gun registration.

+1 It all starts with the best of intentions. Who wouldn't want to help solve the murder of two little girls?

not without a warrant and signed impartially witnessed contract to return the gun un altered immediately upon completion of the test firing (not upon completion of analysis)

alternately you can buy the gun from me at replacement cost (including custom upgrades that have been applied) and then keep it as long as you like.

have a nice day.

Now go out there at actually find some clues instead of asking us to bring in our totally unrelated guns.

and bullshit on best intentions......the intention here is to gather data without consent, or warrant, and to make the guilty party look guilty by not showing up.....along wiht anyone who simply objects to this illegal gun grabbing bullshit.

try this with golf clubs....everyone bring in your golf clubs - someone got their brain bashed in by a 5 iron.

That crime happened here in Okla. It was not your normal murder. Those little girls were shot like 7 times each, head, chest, face, one girl was even shot in the pelvic area.

They think two people did it, because there were two calibers used in the shootings. The little girls were just walking down the dirt road from one girls house to the others and came across something that got them killed. Maybe just someone that thought "gee, I can kill these girls and get away with it", I dunno.

I would happily comply if it would catch the sons of bitches that shot them, but I honestly dont think the people that did it are going to bring in the guns and say here, take a sample slug.

If you are at home, or when you get home look at your little daughter, IF those were your daughters that had been slaughterd like these girls had, would you be yelling "Here come the Police Nazis"? or would you want them to be doing EVERYTHING to try and find the sob or sob's that did this to your little girl?

The case is getting cold, and the cops are getting desperate that the killer or killers are going to get away with these horrific crimes if they dont get a break soon.

Not that I could find but I have found ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and most papers to be totally unreliable sources for information. Got any suggestions that aren't slanted to help the libs?

Yeah, well that is a noble sentiment, but here are the problems with the whole thing.

1. The police will retain the information for the investigation of future crimes. Having a list of all of the .40 S&W
pistols is a registration.

2. I think that I can be pretty damn sure if my Glock 27 was used in a murder, or not. Killing 2 little girls in the kind of thing that you would remember.

3. The perpetrator would not be bringing his in, now would he?

Seriously, this is such a stupid idea I doubt that it is real.

According to Muskogee Okla paper, its real.

Like I said, they are going in every direction trying to find something to work with. All they have right now, are the slugs and casings from the weapon/weapons that killed the girls, and a vague description of an Indian looking guy that was seen in the general area in the general time of the crimes. There are a lot of vague Indian looking guys in Oklahoma, so that takes them back to the slugs and casings.

I hope they catch them by the process of elimination with the weapons. Then put them in old sparky and send them straight to hell.

As a general rule the "brass" in LEO organizations are political animals; thus, the results are not nearly so important as the "appearance" of doing something.

EVERYTHING is why virtually all firearms are banned in the UK. Be careful when you let those with power - which was bestowed to them by We The People - do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to sieze more power - even temporarily. Especially if your attitude is that you'll comply if it helps.

No... I don't want the police to do everything... I don't want my governement to do everything. I want them to do everything they can while UPHOLDING THE CONSTITUTION and not infringing on 300 million law-abiding citizens freedoms and liberties.

I am from just down the road from this killing, heard the story on my local news station in Tulsa the other day, bothered me in some ways, and in others it would be good do find out who killed these two girls in such a hiddious crime.

Well said.

If I know I did not commit the murder, and my guns were not used to commit the murders - HOW THE F@CK AM I HELPING THE INVESTIGATION BY TAKING MY GUNS IN!!!!!

This is a terrible tragedy, but people who gave into their bleeding heart tendencies and complied with this are PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!! With this attitude, your beloved free state of OK will be just like my state of California. Yep, it started like that here too; "dont you want to do it for the children?". It started in the LA area and quickly became a state law, to catch those who would harm the children. Trust me, I saw it here, if you let them get away with this it will lead to state legislation. You will say "damm that Desert Dog was right".

And you want to talk about some NAZI sh!t, what about friends and neighbors turning in other gun owners to the state! Looks like you Okies need to keep your arsenal low-profile, just like we do in California.

BTW, I do not think that the title of this thread is a fair one. It implies a forced inspection of the citizenry's firearms, and even the quoted story points out the cooperation is voluntary.

A lot of people read no more of these things then the title and this one says that the worst fears of many, are true.

Happily, that is not the case here, as unworkable as this idea appears to me.

Right or wrong, the title of this article came form the publisher, not me. While true, it is voluntary, it is equally true that if you choose not to participate your name goes on the suspect list.

if the media didnt use slanted titles their garbage wouldnt sell. 1911, i didnt think he was blaming u for the title, i figured it was the media playing sides.

I understand what you guys are saying about give an inch give a mile, but personally I would do anything reasonable to help catch the perps. Would I load up my entire collection and bring them in for inspection? No. But I would be willing to bring in my .40 cal pistol if it would help catch the animals that slaughtered those two girls like dogs in the street. Again, do I think it will work? No, but I am sure the pressure is on the police to do something, and they just dont have a lot to work with right now.

We still have the sour taste in our mouth of a Girl scout camp killing incident here where some girls were killed in a girl scout camp probably 10 years ago and no one was ever caught.

This kind of crap is supposed to happen in Chicago, or New York City, not in rural Oklahoma. No offense to any people from those two great cities.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365618,00.html

I'm sorry but that is just plain f*cknuts stupid.
Bring in all your guns?

What?
Aren't they smart enought osend the bullets to a crime lab and figure out what caliber they are???????

1911 is right, political animals that don't have a lick of police sense.................

Supposedly they do know one weapon used was a .40 S&W Glock

Ok, let me explain, the police here has a strict list of folks within the area that had bought the glocks(yes 40 cal only) in question with the area. They never forced any one to bring their fire arms in, it was strictly up to the owner.

The list was compliled by going to each gun store with in the area and getting the names of the owners of the pistols that way. You as a gun owner have not been forced to do anything against your will, nor would you be, it would take a court order to force a gunowner to submit to testing at this time(remember who you vot for this November, but I am preaching to the choir here)

Thus no one lost any rights or was forced to give evidance in this investigation. Just my two cents, if you feel its the slippery slope write your congressman or women, even if they have alternate views on this subject or firearms in general. Just my two cents. Oklahoma is a pro gun state, there are laws protecting more gunowners rights for sure here too.

I did not realize that till you pointed it out, my apologies!

However, failure to cooperate with a "voluntary" search will not be PC to do anything with.

If I thought for one minute that testing of my hand gun might in any way bring these animals to justice I would not hesitate, but the sad truth is that it will not help one bit. I empathize with the job the police is trying to do they have to be desperate at this point that is why those letters went out.
I pray they cath those sons of bitches and put them down quick, fast and in a hurry.

I am hoping that they find out who it/they is/are and that he/they resist arrest.

Retracted,

Apparently my paranoia is high today. I did spend a weekend in Maryland hearing about gun registration and the no-rifles for hunting (at least in that county) so maybe I just went off on a weird tangent based on recent experiences.

Bottom line is; the murderers arn't bringing in their guns so what good does it do to check out 60+ people who you know arn't murderers? Process of elimination? Everyone in the state except for those 60 are suspects? This is a pointless waste of time that will not get us any closer to finding the killers.

You might consider staying away from talking about the law, you don't know what you are talking about. Not cooperating with a voluntary program is not Probable Cause for a no-knock warrant served by SWAT.

Do you honestly think that making up stuff like this helps anyone?

Actually this kind of crap is not SUPPOSED to happen anywhere!!!! ......it is sad that we "expect it" in some locations more than others.


I understanding doing anything we can to catch the bad guys, but frankly as was stated above. I know myself and my gun did not do in the kids, how does bringing it in do any good. The Cops don't know i have it, otherwise it would not be voluntary, they would be demanding it come in for testing. and even if i did bring it in, this would simply be wasting police time when they could be out there looking for some other sort of clue. Yes i know that they may have nothing to work from at the scene, but someone somewhere knows something.

as long as you are feeling it is ok violate some rights (i know we are talking voluntary right now, but one day it may not be!!!) why don't the cops go and regularly interrogate the heck out of the local priests - confessionals are hot beds of guilt and admissions thereof.... or at least bug the confessional.....

I hope they catch the guys, and if they could be trusted to not store and later abuse the data collected in this process.....maybe....just maybe i would do it without a warrant.

that has got to be the dumbest shit ive ever read. it ranks right up there w/ illiterate inmates.

The Supreme Court decision Illinois v. Gates (1983) lowered the threshold of probable cause by ruling that a "substantial chance" or "fair probability" of criminal activity could establish probable cause. A better-than-even chance is not required.

In United States criminal law, probable cause refers to the standard by which a police officer has the right to make an arrest, conduct a personal or property search, or to obtain a warrant for arrest. It is also used to refer to the standard to which a grand jury believes that a crime has been committed.

Not voluntarily bringing in a gun to be tested is no way probable cause for anything. That would be like thinking you have probable cause to arrest someone for invoking their Miranda Rights and refusing to be interviewed. Trust me, it takes a shitload of information and facts before a search warrant on a house gets signed.

Azrial is correct in this matter. Exercising your legal rights absolutely CANNOT be used by law enforcement to build probable cause against you. This is specifically dealt with in case law. For example, your refusal to give a police officer consent to search your vehicle, when he has no independent probable cause to do so, CANNOT be used by the officer to help establish probable cause to search your vehicle. Similarly, if the police ask you to voluntarily submit any .40 S&W pistols you may have for testing, and you refuse, that refusal does NOTHING to help them establish probable cause to search your house. Since no warrant shall issue without probable cause, the police will not be able to get a search warrant of any kind in such a scenario.

Probable cause exists when the facts and circumstances known on the basis of reasonably trustworthy information are sufficient to warrant a reasonable and prudent person in believing that a particular person has committed a crime, or that evidence pertaining to a crime will be found in a particular place. To establish probable cause, the police must be able to demonstrate "to a reasonable and prudent person" that a given person has MORE LIKELY THAN NOT committed a crime, or that evidence pertaining to a crime will MORE LIKELY THAN NOT be found in a particular place. "Probably" means more likely than not. Illinois v. Gates absolutely did not change that. All it did was to underscore that probable cause is a matter of probability, not certainty. "Fair probability" was simply a phrase used in the decision that, taken in that context, means "more likely than not." A "better than even chance" definitely IS required to establish probable cause.

I definitely would not submit any gun I owned for voluntary testing. As has been said by others above, I would KNOW that my gun was NOT used in any crime, and so allowing the police to run tests with it would do NOTHING to advance their investigation.

And let me add that those of you who think that you have nothing to hide-so why not submit your guns are just putting yourself at the top of the collections list if the liberals ever succeed in doing away with the 2nd amendment!

Amen, preach it Will, i'm sure no serial numbers were taken down for a future date. hmmmm

You have all made great points, and I agree with them all, but there are two sides to every story.

No one has answered my 2 questions.


1)How would you feel if it were your preteen daughters laying shot to pieces in the dirt?

2)What would you expect the local police to do?

deleted for good of all.

voluntary, according to WHOM, exactly? the ones that have the gun in their faces first?



heavily edited by BVamp.

BVamp, unless you are reading something I am not no guns have been put into anyone's face. Unless of course we are speaking of the victims.

Guys the bottom line is the police have as much right to ask people to do something legal as anyone else. I do not agree with what has been requested here, I do not think that it have much chance of clearing this investigation, and it may well do harm.

But the police have done nothing illegal.

I would be devestated, and would want anything done that can be done to find the bastards.

I am not saying that i do not agree with the motives, i am just saying that this to me appears to be a waste of time since the criminals are not going to turn in the guns, the cops will go off on tangents investigating everyone who didn't bring in a gun, which may or may not do any good since the gun used could easily have been stolen or purchased out of state etc.....why draw the line at the local area? why not the whole state, every .40 in the state bring them in!

it is a terrible situation, but i don't think this plan is going to help them in the long run.

+1 Azrial and RangerM9!

I suppose that the police are asking people to bring their .40 cal pistols in for testing in the hope that someone used a friend or relatives' gun (unbeknownst to them) to commit the heinous crimes, and that if said friend or relative brings their gun in for testing some leads may develop. They're clearly grasping at straws, but perhaps you can't fault them for trying. In any event, as Azrial stated, the police have done nothing illegal or oppressive in making the request. People can always decline to bring their guns in. If the police subsequently hassle those people, then they are crossing the line. However, as I noted above, merely declining to voluntarily bring your gun in for testing would not give the police any legal basis for searching your property, arresting you, etc.

Having said that, I still wouldn't bring my gun in for the reasons given in my previous post.

The crime in this case is disturbing to me (as I have a teenage daughter) and the method of execution was particularly gruesome to say the least, however, the fact remains that criminals will not voluntarily bring the murder weapon(s) to be tested by the police. I wonder if the ballistics testing would be done while you wait (yeah, right and the checks in the mail) or you would get the firearm back in oh.. say, after the investigation is over?? One must remember that there are law abiding citizens in New Orleans have yet to get firearms back from the now deemed illegal confiscation of firearms by the NOPD during the post-Katrina days. Cooperation is a two way street!!

I dont think its going to bring any results in either, but I dont want the police to just stick the files in a cold case folder and forget about the girls.

That isnt some big city that has several homicides a day or week, that is a place where this is a major tragic event and has rocked the community.

Bad deal all of the way around.

Damnit, another double post.

Offer a big reward. For enough potential drug money, criminal turd types would turn in their own Mother.