I ask this question because I think there is a fundamental lack of logic in the world. The matter of liberty is a simple one. In this day and age of compromise one matter stands alone; You are either for liberty(meaning the right to do what you will with whom you will wherever and whenever you wish, unless it compromises the rights of another person,) or you are against liberty. Either you are willing to fight, and I mean fight, for liberty, or you will die a slave. When all other methods are exhausted, and the ultimate end of your opponent is to steal that which God gave you, you must fight. We are not there yet, but we may soon be. The Republic is dead gentlemen. Caesar has crossed the Rubicon. I fear that soon our only recourse will be to take back what is ours by birthright. If you do not believe that then you are not fit for duty. Sociallism is the plague which threatens our freedom. I will fight Al Queda on my doorstep if need be, but politicians will steal our freedom through coersion. Terrorism may cause fear, but legislation does something much more evil. It steals liberty throught the excuse of the common good. All free men of the west, must stand for liberty. In the cause of liberty there is neither Reb nor Yank, Hippie or Square. There are only lovers and haters of freedom.

Th plan of the left recently has been to "change" the game of patriotism. Now your a patriot if you "fight" for the environment, or if you act like an idiot and ride in critical mass. Or if you join a mob an break windows in a business district (ala nazi brown shirts) to protest capatalism at a G7 meeting. Or your a patriot if you want to pay higher taxes, or if you want to defend a women's right to have and abortion and destroy her people.

Excellent point Bulldog.

But your only a Patriot in their eyes if your doing what they want you to do. Our Republicants don't represent us anymore gentlemen and lady
We just have to listen to our own hearts and minds.

I am still new here and don't want to step on my crank, but there is a famous quote that says in effect,

"The tree of liberty, from time to time, must be refreshed with the blood of pattiots and tyrants."
-Thomas Jefferson

In church last sunday the preacher was talking about the ancient christians being killed as Jerusalem fell in 70a.d. He spoke of how they where asked to call ceaser Domition "God" and when they refused tehy were killed or at the very least unable to do business, etc.

I told my wife later that day that it was going to be hard to me to die like that, as I would not go quitely into the dark cold night! Neither will I stand by and let America fall and allow my 3 year old and 8 year old suffer the slavery of socialism. While I am not quite ready to take up arms, the tyrants in Washington need to be very careful how they tread.

We survived Carter and Clinton and we can survive Obama, so long as he remains within the confines of the Constitution. Only if they step outside the Constitution could a group of Patriots justify any action other than voting and writing their Congresscritters- local and federal, etc.

Keep your powder dry, watch your six and pray like hell.

Good quote spoonman. Jefferson, while silly and almost anarchistic in later life, was a brilliant man. I apologize if my rant was somewhat seditious, but I am tired of seeing the rights of my statesmen and countrymen trampled by these hypocritical socialists in Washington. There are many good quotes out there, not the least of which being that "eternal vigilance is the price of freedom." I can't wish war on any country, but war is not the worst evil to sweep across this earth. I give it a year and a half before I know truly where this country is bound. We may have survived Carter(whom I can't with good conscience call a fellow Georgian) and Clinton, and even Roosevelt(II), but is this the same country as before they "reigned?" We shall see gents, we shall see.

From what I can see, most Americans are not mad enough to take up arms in defense of our liberties - BUT they are considering the matter!

http://www.usawakeup.org/America_Wake_Up.htm

What do you suppose it will take? I'm unsure of the heart of America at this point. I hope my certainty in my fellow Americans returns quickly.

1911

Nothing has 'happened" yet, other than an election.

If we get to the point that we take up arms just because our candidate lost (or theirs won) then we are no better than any two-bit, third world Banana Republic.

If, however, we see real cause for action, that is a different story.

The bailout is as close as I have seen in my years, but our elected representatives voted for and passed the legislation (my two voted against it). That's how this works...I may not like it, but it is passed.

I am sure we all have "the line", but they probably differ along personal lines.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are sacred and if they try to stamp any of those out, I am sure you will see quite a few "patriots" rise up. Freedom of speech, Religion and the 2A are precious.

I am a Patriot, I love America, but I would have to have a just cause to take up arms against her:

St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia
March 23, 1775.

MR. PRESIDENT: No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do, opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely, and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfil the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offence, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves, and the House? Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these war-like preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled, that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask, gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done, to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free² if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending²if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations; and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable²and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace²but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

-Patrick Henry

These men were engaged in a great battle for freedom and leaders lik ethis one emerged. But the struggle was neither easy nor swift. They fought hard for many years through bitter circumstances and with fellow countrymen who would have rather been enslaved than fight. But they had a just cause!

Spoon,

You have a fine point that any action other than violent action should be taken first. However I think Henry stated it plainly enough when he asked what in the past of the Crown led them to believe the future would be any different. The lesson in this has nothing to do with the Crown in particular, but more to do with the nature of government as a whole. Government is necassary, yes. It is however a necassary evil that must be eternally kept in check. The nature of government as and entity, because it is indeed the most sophisticated form of mob, is to like a mob, grow and grow until that mob destroys something, which in the case of government, is the peoples rights. I think of rights and power much like the law of the conservation of energy. There are only so many rights, and they can neither be destroyed nor created. They simply exist. They can however change hands through force or coersion. That is what government seeks to do, no matter which government, or what country. It is the responsibility of the individual to make certain that government is limited in those rights. The ninth and tenth amendments exist solely for this purpose. Hell the whole Bill of Rights exist to this purpose the but the ninth and tenth amendments were created solely for the purpose of limiting the federal government.

My only point in this matter is that while the federal government slowly eats away at out rights in ways unimaginable to the logical common man, we sit here and say "Not without just cause," when in fact just cause was given thousands of times throughout our unions history. Secession has been threatened hundreds of times by states in the past. Do men still have the stomach for such things? No. Granted thanks to Lincoln and the Radical Republicans secession is now unconstitutional. Americans I fear, in the majority do not recognize freedom because they have never known it. They do not recognize true freedom because it has not existed in their lifetime. I do not wonder about our government because my candidate lost. In fact my candidate was not even in the race. I chose not to vote because I would no longer compromise principles of personal liberty simply for the sake of a guy who kinda went my way on issues. They say compromise is what makes men. In most instances I cannot argue that. However, concerning my liberty and the liberty of my fellow Georgians I can see no great sophistication in compromise. No sir, this I can not do. I do not wish war ever, but I will not give up liberty for the sake of peace. This is the very definition of slavery.

I think we agree more than you know, but I will do all I can to peacebly change things. However, if action is necessary, I'd rather it be on my watch than my kids (or grandkids, if I have any).

We all have a line in the sand, it just differs a little from one to the next. Mine's probably not far from yours.


Spoon

What a great thread!!!!!!!!

Spoon you are probably right. I am not a man of war by nature, and compromise is always preferable to combat. There is a different line for most people. Think of the number of reluctant people during the Revolution of 76. Hell, during the civil war there were riots in the north over the draft, and sons who forsook their fathers wishes and ran off to the north. By the way 1911 I am glad you are enjoying my rants and old spoons reason. It takes reason AND passion to accomplish any goal in life, and that is why we must find common ground on our side of the fight in order to protect our rights. Y'all are all good men if you love liberty which it sounds like you do.

Anyone have any opinions or good quotes? By the way Spoon, it took a hell of a lot of time to type all that Patrick Henry. Cut and paste, or eighty words a minute? I have served this country and seen her military might. It is staggering in contrast to the rest of the world. A Nimitz class carrier with its battle group could make war on a small country. A Stiker Brigade can wage a blitzkrieg to rival the Germans in '39. We have given our government the power and right to make war conventionally on an unimaginable scale, not to mention nuclear. We have convinced the world that it is simply a bad idea to make war on the United States. What happens should we ever have the need to make war on our own governmen? I pray that that day never comes.

Google is your friend, CTRL +C, CTRL, V! LOL. There is a local visitrs attraction here in Alabama called The American Village. It is a circa 1700 thing that is very popular arouns the 4th of July and durig the summer. They have a guy who dresses in period garb and they have built a replica of the church where Patrick Henry made that speech. You sit in the audience as though you were one of the distinguished gentlemen Henry is addressing. If you've never heard it delivered orally, it will knock your socks off!

BTW, you are the first person in history to ever call me to have or posess "reason"! LOL

I spent the day with my adopted family celebrating several late November birthdays and discussing our pending move to our rural location. I don't think we can hide from the inevitable, but it is one more layer of protection in a way.

I think if it ever does come to real civil unrest and action, if it is not a very smooth, coordinated effort, each person who rebels will be singled out, labeled a child porn addict or right wing gun nut and then sumarily dispatched by the PTB.

We have the best equipped, best trained military in the world and I have a lot of respect for those that put in on the line.

AS we were driving home tonight, my 8yo son, who overheard us talking about the Mambia attacks today, asked about someone trying to blow up Alabama. I reassured him by telling him about all the effort our .gov puts into protecting us here and abroad. Now I sit typing about this and shudder at the thought.

Yet the men who took up their muskets in 1776 had it tough as well. They took on and defeated what was at the time the best trained, best equipped army in the world, albeit across an ocean.

It is scary to think in the near future that this thread could jeapordize your and my well being.

IN any event, I will spend Thansgiving giving thanks that I live in the free-est nation on earth, that I can express myself and my distaste for the current crop of statesmen, nay politician, nay publicans? in Washington. On Friday I will join a group of 12-14 shooters and shoot the Tactical Rifle Match here in town and on Saturday we'll play host and run stages for the 50+ competitiors who will come and seek fun, enjoyment and a little skill challenge.

It's really nice knowing I am not alone!

Here's a few more quotes I love:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing"
-(this quote is often xrecited to Edmund Burke-great guy-but he didn;t say it! Still a great quote1)

"A republic, if you can keep it."
-Benjamon Franklin

Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?
-Clint Eatwood as The Outlaw Josey Whales

That last one's just for fun

Happy Thanksgiving

Thanks for the quotes spoon. Take the time to appreciate Thanks Giving man. I won't be home from this overgrown sandbox for a couple more days. They managed to delay our "escape" long enought to miss TG. I will have to check out that thing in Alabama. My inlaws have a second home on the Tallapoosa in Randolph county. In fact they are there now for TG. I live just over the border in GA, though I am a native born and proud Savannian, so we bug out to the river fairly regular. I can't wait to get home and shoot the new saiga .308 I bought online. Anyway, while a lot of my and your comments may be seditious and possibly treasonous as defined by washington, as a Guardsman I ain't too worried. I signed up predominantly for the state anyway. Don't get me wrong, I will defend the liberty of any member of our union, but I will never march into other states and terrorize there people, as it was so well put by Thomas Jackson in his speech to his First Virginia Brigade. Well, happy Thanksgiving, and GO DAWGS!

P.S. That sweet tobacco posey is the rose of Alabammy