hubel458

December 14, 2015

How are Saiga 12 and 20 barrels held in the Saiga actions?

Are they threaded and if so what size and pitch are the threads. Ed

December 10, 2015

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by

a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb

stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed

About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.

It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.

With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.

Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.

One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with

Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,

to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case

that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.

Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.

Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.

Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..

AND LATER DO ONE IN A SAIGA

In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.

By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....

Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.

Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.

On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down

and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of

weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.

Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight

like a compact UTG sight...Ed

November 10, 2015

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double

as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than

the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.

Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE

in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.

Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail

like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.

The scope rail is a piccatiny type.

The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil

block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole

Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the

sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening

is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig

with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old

extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.

When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind

the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.

The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!

Just keep on building...Ed

September 24, 2015

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.

Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.

Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.

Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga

sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in

sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in

sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die

and punch it back out.

And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,

You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.

We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where

we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large

diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.

But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17

type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.

RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control

speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle

powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes

RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available

for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed

as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.

Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,

that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.

I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140

into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed

June 25, 2015

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by

target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,

necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way

before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,

was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long

and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked

down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.

Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as

shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under

a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds

180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base

and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,

and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did

big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but

maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,

if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,

multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,

which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or

falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,

and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,

(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite

gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.

To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,

wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys

with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

April 22, 2015

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the

recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous

game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;

Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up

for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the

first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can

go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos

Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the

style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.

Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a

singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we

adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.

Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is

just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire

forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

February 14, 2015

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH

here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light

bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil

but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about

mach 4 with a top load..

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.

It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow

sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a

bunch of them and so does McGowen.

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.

It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a

hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as

hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would

work in our 12ga sabot..

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they

can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture

of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.

Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a

way to keep them together group wise.Ed

December 19, 2014

Have a site going to change to cover our 585 stuff.No 410 stuff.

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super

sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple

middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,

which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the

sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a

special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.

An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm

PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5

cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases

being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes

like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr

spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using

3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.

Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place

where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where

steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

585-14,5mm.jpg

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the

actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .

Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by

cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on

inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like

Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice

like me can do.....

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr

ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr

to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..

The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,

for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,

and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

October 25, 2014

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets

and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat

or wide hollowpoint. .

Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,

and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve

sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and

315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro

Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually

set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga

size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid

shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses

off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,

to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went

eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short

cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the

577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,

then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"

and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet

of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet

diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns

and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed

and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider

was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all

over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a

24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and

reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And

stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing

the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding

reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.

The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are

about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.

We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,

with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,

break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug

goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.

Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed

to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles

energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel

gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the

actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.

So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.

.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga

and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

September 9, 2014

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an

extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga

one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger

than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one

on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

August 15, 2014

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE

and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture

of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same

bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break

actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds

458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that

was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit

in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,

fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give

good resistance for good ignition.

Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol

bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585

will go about mach 4.

Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber

coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being

too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and

we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

April 23, 2014

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.

Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded

to match 577NE power.

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels

as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys

have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.

It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.

Built by his smith who has a reamer.

Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three

reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

March 13, 2014

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop

the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works

good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut

plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight

fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....

Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on

top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga

and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI

24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great

in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and

wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.

The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with

the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,

drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.

And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single

shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,

even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"

model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it

feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we

made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for

slightly longer stroke.Ed

February 22, 2014

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases

but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than

plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.

And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,

But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits

those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length

backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use

the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.

Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case

and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length

backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads

under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.

The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,

and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum

pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short

case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.

These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than

others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns

to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual

12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to

minimum specs so cases don't over expand.

In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,

and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED

Here is the ytube URL again for our guy

shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a

pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

January 28, 2014

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a

Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.

Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,

so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass

cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE

3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to

540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet

mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that

would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and

turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.

And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep

saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and

slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other

caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and

cheaper if you cast your own.

Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.

Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.

Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...

In back some of the cases and die sets.

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil

reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with

the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,

1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper

to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more on Enfields

and others through the winter. Ed

January 1, 2014

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.

Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our

12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use

577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"

Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use

577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper

than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style

forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.

Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,

and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.

You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more

will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14

that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,

1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly

Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice

walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.

It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

December 8, 2013

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our

sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared

to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun

powder but made it much smaller using much more

of the slower 4759.

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and

other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans

on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get

them or don't cast their own.......

Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com

If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch

our 585 cases imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long

barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to

the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.

Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,

60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.

Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.

Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel

barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit

inside the hollowbase of the bullet....Ed

October 16, 2013

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots

.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of

brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner

Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies

and sometimes you have to use different wads..

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with

12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between

seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down

evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case

I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps

I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.

The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it

in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into

couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,

straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big

run of cases made in a factory.

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi

in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.

Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.

The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length

with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as

they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

September 15, 2013

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with

black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is

an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks

impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt

he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like

the faster powder did for him.

..

Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over

the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.

The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp

180 degree crimp down on top of it.

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but

they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case

1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.

Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.

The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs

We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,

single shots and checking couple lever actions.

Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

August 21, 2013

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in

the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel

and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.

It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.

Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and

the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.

Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using

IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him

go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of

EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,

and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in

sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using

Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if

problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and

wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of

sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface

of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The

4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed

with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of

way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into

the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the

good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems

across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just

the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for

wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun

building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon

a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

July 18, 2013

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that

you can get molds for from Lyman,

Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,

the best size for the 12ga sabots.

A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,

650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure

Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left

straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all

the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

July 5, 2013

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.

Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US

and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet

of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585

with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy

of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.

Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list

and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier

1500------5

1600------5.7

1700------6.42

1800------7.2

1900------8

2000------9

2100------9.8

2200------10.75

2300------11.75

2400------12.8

2500------13.9

2600------15

2700------16.2

2800------17.4

2900------18.7

3000------20

June 22, 2013

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..

20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,

but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our

sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing

145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like

having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the

puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.

Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,

to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.

TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

May 26, 2013

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.

First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot

bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting

barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if

base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real

tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.

On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand

which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball

flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different

styles of Minies.

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize

12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use

for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about

where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.

They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

May 7, 2013

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,

next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder

as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..

Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and

the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the

top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases

at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case

mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling

impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel

straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that

we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that

will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

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Posts posted by hubel458