hubel458

April 30, 2013

The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got to
money back out of them right way, and seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will try
selling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get these
moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

April 9, 2013

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......

First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip

Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as

the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel

headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal

slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,

But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum

cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a

base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of

Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.

Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left

fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel

For 400gr max of 57gr Steel

For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.

For 510gr max of 49gr Steel

For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a

bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.

Many of you need to get in on the fun.

Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is

perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light

barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra

springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made

for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on

the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock

for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so

in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next

to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.

Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..

Whoppee.....Ed

April 4, 2013

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr

58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to

get them and get loads working.

A little levity in this process.Ed

March 30, 2013

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.

Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt

solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.

2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft

1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie

Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale

on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.

Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.

If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two

hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr

and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with

white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.

I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in

smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.

To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.

You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the

sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps

will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .

More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.

Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher

velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.

For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier

for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.

Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences

and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"

I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using

480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks

and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"

Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.

Or $20 for 50 postage included..

.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus

WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..

We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed

March 29, 2013

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch

of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr

Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is

perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all

stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower

powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.

Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded

only a little, and those cases are soft ones.

We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.

With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.

Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the

bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom

is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many

other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the

sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.

Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.

Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under

slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the

curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),

that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.

It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many

shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,

miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228

THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.

Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,

with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.

to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

March 17, 2013

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in

the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we

get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed

these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length

as 3' plastic crimped little long.

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall

10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit

VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.

Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in

a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used

in wads as opposed to fullbore.

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE

cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE

guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to

make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire

in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about

4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.

And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed

for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the

newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be

possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.

Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light

barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.

Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of

what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load

.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the

Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get

85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi

instead of 65,000...Ed

February 26, 2013

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up

and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead

roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on

bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with

screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube

with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4

ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.

Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie

slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going

about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,

and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as

the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

January 31, 2013

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to

be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller

45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.

This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into

them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500

they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same

combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on

right is factory SPW.

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this

12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of

Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.

That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug

in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly

short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.

Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585

barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the

back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up

24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use

reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load

say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card

and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about

airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you

can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real

speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

January 14, 2013

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW

wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.

We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just

shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.

Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..

We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it

in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman

12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a

SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make

bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE

case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one

on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed

the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the

unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving

room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going

to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder

and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,

Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,

and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.

As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga

card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.

There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can

stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that

was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.

It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers

like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .

It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn

deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter

cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super

heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging

peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in

BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".

And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

January 2, 2013

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load

various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've

seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we

are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.

You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.

And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.

CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo

that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal

muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the

volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.

And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.

. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not

needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.

It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.

Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.

There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is

54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum

jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety

of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough

to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in

CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.

Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.

Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong

singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,

and the Magtech 199 shown above.

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.

We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with

the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads

with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

December 29, 2012

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish

on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have

12ga barrel for it..

Next is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander

shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.

Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.

Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,

Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.

Last picture, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,

with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

December 25, 2012

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots

soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..

We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run

for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch

this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info

if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums

and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and

58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug

load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and

also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of

commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"

470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.

That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth

super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.

Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a

heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..

I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just

to show all the uses the case has.

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.

It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.

I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in

a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar

It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,

with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE

cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.

They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.

He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000

with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first

shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,

so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.

Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,

Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.

Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.

Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here

is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,

we just got done.

I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,

etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real

tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we

fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted

ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,

and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..

Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp

what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,

they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are

in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,

which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..

The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.

He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads

that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing

these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime

we get money built up for an order..Ed

August 9, 2012

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a

two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a

little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.

Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled

barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round

balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.

Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,

muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x

seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,

and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and

added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel

16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.

He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run

as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on

first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to

me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,

no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain

compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved

enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.

My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres

make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.

We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US

due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............

.

July 12, 2012

With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch

barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie

in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate

5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,

10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.

A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with

58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..

And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.

Bertram getting ready to make the last die;

done later this month and will be doing cases then.

Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.

He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as

I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship

by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had

a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a

real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.

I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.

I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,

to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get

100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.

I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets

and get it to me and I send them on to him.

I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to

the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.

Want to make the run as big as possible. Got

money ready to go for over 700.

Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

June 25, 2012

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.

The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in

36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like

butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip

in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.

This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug

More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.

For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with

deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end

heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..

Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush

down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of

the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.

Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would

allow it to tip or go off center.

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and

700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to

50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the

stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

June 7, 2012

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two

in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding

58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform

to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help

for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.

We are working on it.

Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a

thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first

load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows

great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better

in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP

guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way

they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many

others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist

and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting

the accuracy.

On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long

case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea

I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

May 21, 2012

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want

to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,

with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.

In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead

alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on

exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through

a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be

gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.

They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.

I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in

2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range

from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them

down to 350 gr and less.

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out

of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,

and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on

to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how

it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have

here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style

gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most

all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.

Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom

lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.

Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one

in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put

on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula

for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--

all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.

The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.

The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.

The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.

The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.

Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder

it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,

heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder

at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.

Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

May 6, 2012

I think we found good overall sabot design that will

be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals

and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.

It is same simple design as the ones pictured above

but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact

for more room for our slow powder loads, and when

using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning

which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges

of slower powder, better velocity with less case

expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots

for penetration until now.. They did very well,

two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried

timber, pushing out some wood on the back.

Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great

for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.

Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is

nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked

that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.

Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,

and cast harder for any need.And compared to other

way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once

we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing

bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel

leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs

compared to short fullbore ones....

Here are pictures of molds that can make cast

58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working

on.There are many makers and brands and styles

of molds and weights available.

Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase

lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore

I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base

bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.

The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold

like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the

diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.

Great looking gun..Ed

April 18, 2012

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.

In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder

and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is

shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed

you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important

wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as

straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best

velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift

which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the

slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom

of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed

sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight

fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals

with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore

with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the

"Lethal" and the "destructor".

5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled

barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed

April 6, 2012

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well

and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.

The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.

The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.

We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these

style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the

aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some

due the economy.

Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.

Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.

And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we

want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot

gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.

It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern

20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

March 25, 2012

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different

58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of

sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie

Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.

Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading

slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")

Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs

Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.

Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.

And they are all good slugs at a saving especially

when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading

suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a

quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

From the research on sabot patents and testing by various

of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy

at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how

to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases

for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need

to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not

fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in

regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,

they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't

have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs

for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover

a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing

their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive

factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much

more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,

one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from

a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.

Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of

different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting

friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making

the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.

Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than

modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action

we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like

the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,

an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,

to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have

setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,

and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.

Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like

all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels

and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the

extra weight.

March 10, 2012

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been

looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that

can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.

If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as

high as others who have to set up complete machines.

We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones

made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to

have similiar design as the ones pictured below

but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots

with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show

what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.

With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal

Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.

We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5

58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,

as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for

58cal cast slugs, by different companies.

The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs

and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.

40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr

Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my

585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how

fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in

my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.

They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.

Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style

break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style

break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on

actions like this and great value for no more

than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.

We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can

use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are

working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield

type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier

smooth barrels.

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,

a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.

2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express

on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job

on nice looking slug gun.Ed

February 25, 2012

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are

like ones we want to get made for reloading.

They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.

I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled

barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.

Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.

The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow

base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they

have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should

make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two

different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart

I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.

All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always

near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal

cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore

test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and

the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect

system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show

and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent

weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that

sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.

That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.

Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger

percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no

cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion

disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.

The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot

both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up

with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)

around the net. We are very happy with the response and help

we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help

to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into

the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,

reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.

All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.

And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being

being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go

over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,

third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate

Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

February 22, 2012

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,

with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot

section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the

slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower

powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier

so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs

isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore

accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.

This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original

setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried

it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup

seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..

Slug is .629" diameter.

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with

the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving

nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.

Man what nice old guns.

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for

close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which

might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of

sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

February 13, 2012

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.

First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.

They look like Berdan primed. Run from

36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

Second is a paper case clad with

thin brass nearly to the top.

Third is picture of paper case crimped into

the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one

pictured above with a Dixie slug.

Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea

that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.

A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal

slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones

that have been available, for reloading guys. That

the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy

at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in

most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much

more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have

had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase

Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from

heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at

30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.

Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.

Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder

than witches ---, and no time.

I am trying to find who makes these.There are

about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed

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