s2thalayer
-
Content Count
142 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Blogs
Calendar
Store
Posts posted by s2thalayer
-
-
Shoot, you guys are right. Rivets are not as complicated as they're made out to be. I just crushed my center support, and honestly, I just used a regular ol claw hammer without a set. Just put the rivet head down on the tool desk, and hit it like a nail. It wasn't a clean, pretty crush by any means, but it's secure. I'll shape it with a dremel, but the crushed end is on the side with the selector so you won't see it anyway. It bent going in, but i'll grind part of it off. I don't see an incredible amount of stress being put on that particular rivet, so I'm not worried. Like I said, nothing is loose. The other side of the rivet and receiver looks great.
My only real issue with the build so far was that when I used my punch drilling the holes, I bent the receiver inwards. It's all a learning experience, figured I'd make some mistakes on the first one. But, I stuck to the K.I.S.S. method since it's an ak and just used the claw from the hamer to pry it outwards, and now it's just about perfect. grinded the top rails down to .19 by hand with a dremel, worried about how that would look, but it turned out great.
Even though the rivets are simple, I had our local welder that I sub work out to often heat treat my receiver and ejector rail. After he did that, he's been excited about seeing how it turns out. He's never done anything like this before. So I mentioned the welding ideas and the concerns I have heard. His reply was "Bring that thing down here and when I'm done TIGing it, you'll be able to run it over with a train and it'll be fine for your grandkids." Told me to just make sure I drill the holes oversized...he said he'd prefer the size of the trigger pin holes, 7mm. I had heard that mentioned several times for a better surface area already, so was prepared. I'll at least try the welds on this one. If it works out well, I'll weld the other two. If not, I'll get to riveting.
I'm going to just screw the trigger guard and mag catch. Saigas use screws for the trigger guard, so why not? Neither of those areas have any real stress going on either.
I also didn't use reemers for the holes. I drilled them out with small bits and worked up to the precise sizes...then dremeled off the excess sheet metal.
So far this build is turning out beautiful, much better than I imagined it would go. I appreciate all the help you guys have offerred. Building this thing with the makeshift tools of a carpenter is looking simple. The hardest part has been drilling out the rivets, which was a bitch and ruined wayyy to many bits and sets, and since we were in the middle of a snow storm, had to drive through the mess to get new ones.
Today I will put the guide rails on and drill my trunnion holes. Looking forward to documenting all this on the next build for others lacking the propper tools.
-
Pics when your done! do a build thread! document the process for others.
I am absolutely going to do that. Already planned on making a video. When I did my first Saiga, there were so many precise videos on how to do everything, it was all made easy, and taught me a lot about the rifles.
This on the other hand, if you don't have a press or knowledge on jigs and how they work, a thread like this is the best you can do. I searched AR15.com, these forums, akfiles, google, everything for solutions, but all I found were specific issues from different people.
Since I have 3 builds, I'll likely take my time on the first and get the hang of everything. The second I will make a video about, and if I pursue a Magal on the third like I plan to do, will DEFINITELY document that.
-
Nevermind. I believe i have everything I need now.
Going to just bolt the guide rails rather than weld, since a lot of people are saying that it gives me a little more of a margin for error. Though that does make me wonder if I should heat treat the guide rails before or after they are bolted in place.
My welder said he could get all the spots I need treated cherry red, and he could bend a flat I have if I mark it for him. So looks like I'm ready to go.
Thanks for all your help.
-
I would not weld on the trunnion at all, you may fuck the heat treatment on one of the only high stress areas of the AK design. The great thing about rivets, is that when driven they not only contract in length; they expand in diameter, which takes up any slack in the holes. Within reason, of course. You will never get that sort of fit with a screw build, and welding it you will never be sure what you have gotten, not only because if heat treatment issues, but also because you can't inspect the back of the weld. Unless you pull the barrel, in which case you should be using rivets anyway.
Right. So basically, if the welding isn't done professionally, don't do it at all...and even if it is done professionally, you'll never really be sure if it's going to break on the next round.
Does anyone rivet or screw their guide rails? Or is welding really the only method there? If I have to, I'll just get a welding shop to spot weld that, because I'm not buying a welder just to weld on 3 or 4 sets of rails. May even consider screwing or riveting them.
-
What are the bolts for? can it be done with the barrel still attached?
The bolts are used as bucking bars. I use an aircraft 3x rivet gun (a fancy air hammer with a more controllable trigger) with an AN430 rivet set (available from US Tool for a few bucks) on the outer, round head of the rivets. The inner (aka the "shop" head) head of the rivet is what is actually formed when riveting, against the bolt clamped in a vise to give backing to the whole process. Grind bolt heads as needed in order to reach what you need to. I will try to remember to post pictures of my bolts in a couple of days. The trigger guard rivets are kind of a booger. I use a jig in my press, which works sort of OK, but others use the air hammer with a special modified rivet set that is ground on one side for clearance, which seems to work as well or better. I may do that instead, next time around.
Be advised that the air hammer method takes some practice and still. I'm an aircraft mechanic, and the rivet hammer is one of the tools of my trade, so I know how to use it. You will want to get plenty of extra rivets, and practice riveting scrap steel together first. No matter what method you use.
You still need to pull the barrel. I use my press, but others have used ball joint pullers, etc. with success. Hardest part of the process is often getting the barrel pin out first. Anybody who says you can rivet the front trunnion with the barrel in place is recommending a substandard practice. You have no way of knowing that the inner head of the rivet was formed correctly, and there are plenty of ways it can go wrong. And it's a lot easier to locate and drill the holes in the receiver in the first place, with the barrel removed.
Getting the barrel back in is more difficult. The best way is with a press and a special jig that supports the trunnion (do not try to use the receiver as support, you will screw it up). In the past, I have been known to screw a thread protector (blank firing device, etc) in place on the end of the barrel, and beat it in with a big lead hammer. I made the hammer by pouring an empty soda can full of lead, drilling a hole through the middle, and installing a handle. Fit of the barrel to the trunnion is more important using this method; a press can usually horse it back in, but using the hammer method, I've sometimes had to hone the trunnion slightly for a better fit, and it's still sometimes a struggle. Don't hone too much.
Thanks, I think I understand the concept of riveting pretty well now. You're actually putting force on the side of the rivet that DOESNT originally have the head if I've got it right.
I think I'm pretty certain on just using screws for the trigger guard, as that's what is used on a Saiga, and I would guess if it's acceptable there, it's acceptable for this as well. If they are fine there, I would also guess they are probably fine for the mag catch. If they aren't I can always fix it later, as those two things are not dangerous like the trunnions could be. I am fairly certain I will only rivet the trunnions.
Also, do you think a welding job could be a success if JUST plug welding the front trunnion, and riveting the rear? Or maybe something makeshift like welding in the rivets? I'm really dreading barrel removal, but I'll do it if all the other ways are irrational.
Thanks for the pics, I'll definitely use these as a reference tomorrow when I make these tools.
-
Augh..... Google "pokie rivet tool"
Go to harbor frieght and buy a 24" bolt cutter and grind the jaws to make a rivet crusher..... Simple, easy and will last you through all your builds.
removing the barrel from the trunion I use a ball joint puller. cheap tool for reinstalling the barrel is a piece of all thread, washers and nuts.
so removing the barrel is something anyone could do with a couple cheap tools? No need for a press or a lathe?
-
I think what red 308 is describing is making a depression in one bolt to fit the round head that is already on one end of the rivet. This will be on the outside of the receiver and the angle away from the hole is a chamfer on the diameter to prevent the bolt from leaving a mark on the outside of the receiver. This bolt is often clamped in a vice with the rivet in the receiver resting on top, then the other bolt is used as a punch to mash the part of the rivet extending inside the receiver. If you are goping to this extent you might also want to consider having the gun blasted and refinished.
AH! I get it now! Haha. Trying to visualize all this without having any rivets or parts in my hands. I get exactly what you guys are saying now. The only rivets you can't get to from both sides of the receiver are going to be the front trunnion, which is where the bolt cutters come in, which would require barrel removal. If I have to do that, I guess I'll just have to, but would just plug welding that be an option? Most of the welding complaints I hear have to do with the rear trunnion, not the front. As for refinishing, the receiver is a blank, not heat treated or anything...so it's gotta be finished anyway.
Does anyone have any issues with what red308 was saying about smashing rivets against the barrel that is already pressed? That wouldn't cause headspacing issues or any significant change in accuracy?
Thank you guys so much for the help. At this point I'm fairly certain I'm going to rivet most of the rifle if not all of it.
Something else I was thinking about earlier...does everyone weld their guide rails, or do some rivet those as well? Could something like that or the mag catch/trigger guard use soft rivets rather than steel? I can't imagine they would be under nearly the stress the others would be. That's more of just a curious question.
-
to use bolts and a hammer to rivet is simple. you find a large bolt or steel rod about a 1/2 inch across or bigger then take one of the rivets and match a drill bit to the same size as the rivet head then drill the end of the bolt/rod. then i use a dremmel to shape the hole so when you rivet it turns out nice and round. you don't want the whole rivet head to disappear into the hole you drilled you want just a little bit of the head showing.then what i do is grind the bottom of the bolt at an angle away from the rivet head hole i drilled.then i use steel plates that i set under the receiver that have holes in them just like the bolt.i use the plate and bolt for the rear trunnion/support rivet and trigger guard.you could probably use this setup for riveting some of the front trunnion with the barrel installed but the to back rivets on the front trunnion have to be crushed with a modified bolt cutter/rivet tool.any way you do it it will most likely work fine.
Ah, so you're using the bolt as a makeshift punch. Figured that. What's the angle grinded on the bottom for? You're saying to drill an angle away from the concave spot you modified for the rivet head? Then the steel plate under it, you need some clearance for the rivet to crush though, right? The way I understood it was the rivet head needed to be flush with the receiver when crushing the rivets. Is that not so with a hammer? Thanks a lot for your help.
Also, I'm looking on the HF site, and wondering what would be better for this...an impact hammer with chisels, or a "1/4 inch air hydraulic riveter"
-
this is a S-12 thread, but addresses a lot of the issues you may want to look into.
For example Pauley explaining the trunnion and receiver metals are different.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66017-i-cracked-my-s12-recieverpics/
I would read that and form a opinion after.
So from what I read there, make sure the heat treating is done right, and do my research about how different metals react and make sure I'm not getting anything too hot. If I'm not confident in that, take it to a pro, which is likely. haha.
Also maybe considering at least riveting the rear trunnion, if nothing else. If I can figure out how to rivet everything without removing the barrel or using a press, after reading that post, I'd really rather go that route. After doing a lot of googling for about a month though, I'm still not all the keen on how riveting works. I get that you are putting enough pressure on the rivet to make the head flush with the receiver, and the other side crush flush with the other side of the receiver. Simple enough. But using a hammer or air hammer to flatten the rivets...what makes the other side crush flush? I can't imagine you put a piece of metal on the other side, because then the head of the rivet would just bend like a nail. How do you manage that? And if I go with that, each rivet CAN be done with a hammer and a modified punch...even with the barrel on?
-
I've done my research, and if you're not telling me I can rivet without a press or a jig and can just use a vice and a hammer, I've heard it before.
I use a vise, a hammer (an air hammer), and a couple of ground down bolts.
What are the bolts for? can it be done with the barrel still attached?
-
I saw some "Khyber Pass" AK's in combat........
Weld away my Son....weld away......it's just an AK!
Indeed, I only digress as we have had people come back with cracked receivers from welding trunnions. some areas on the gun were made to have a little bit of flex or wiggle.
Well, we are talking a rifle here that will never see full auto, and out of the 10 or so rifles I have, I can't say I believe any of them have hit 1000 rounds yet. Probably only a couple are past 500.
Don't know if that makes a difference.
-
i can take some pictures of the crude tools i made to hammer the rivets i can put them up tomorrow . i did make a bolt cutter rivet tool for the front trunnion but since the barrel is already installed i have read on many different sites that you can hammer the rivets in until they smash against the barrel when its already installed in the trunnion.I know allot of people don't believe in building them like this but think about it these guns weren't made very precise to begin with that's the point of them.buy the way if you felt like three kits were to much you could sell me one!
Sounds good man. Haha, will do. I think I can probably handle the three of em, but if not, they'll definitely hit the classifieds. haha.
First off i would NOT suggest welding on your receiver if you do not have experience welding already. I have a Lincoln flux core wire welder and it does produce a LOT of spatter. The best solution is to cover as much of the areas around where you are welding with pieces of metal, and WD-40 helps to keep the spatter from sticking a little. The cheaper ones like harbor freight have inferior wire feeders that do not run at real constant speed, they tend to surge making it more difficult to get a good weld. Honestly I did not weld mine even though I have welded a lot I used a Tromix DIY trigger guard and plugs in the rear holes. If you are not an experienced welder and you want it welded I would take it to someone preferably with a TIG welder.Well, the difference here like I said is I have welder friends, and worst comes to worst I can take it to some of guys I sub welding out to pretty often and probably get a good deal. Rivets on the other hand, I'd be on my own other than forum advice. There are no reputable machine shops around here if any at all, so I wouldn't have a backup plan either.
I have heard about the splattering issue, and strangely enough, someone told me to spray "Pam" on the receiver...yeah...the cooking spray. And that that keeps the splatter from sticking. But I suspect it's the same as what you're saying.
Actually, I think I'll take your advice. Might head out to my welder and ask him to quote it. I'm thinking it would be, what, about 6 welds a piece to get the trunnions right? I can't imagine 18 plug welds being expensive to get a professional to do. Any idea if welders typically have an issue working on rifles? I always thought liability would come into play.
-
Ordered 3 kits when the panic happened. A Bulgarian AK74, Hungarian AMD65, and an Egyptian Maadi.
The kits and three polish blank receivers are supposed to arrive this week at my door. I have already decided they will all three be weld builds, it's just down to finding the right welder.
But anyway, I've never been one for traditional, nor repetitive builds. I have a long barrel Saiga .308.
Then I've got a 7.62 more traditional with the tapco T6 set.
So now my plan is to make one of the kits into a Magal, one of the kits into a DMR, and one kit into a traditional wooden furniture AK.
So far I've been thinking of turning the AMD65 into the Magal, the 74 into a DMR, and the Maadi into a traditional AK.
Anybody have any other suggestions for interesting builds? Also, the choices I made I based on accuracy. I figured the 5.45 rounds would be a better DMR round than x39s. Also thought the AMD65 having the shorter barrel (even though I extended it to 16") and the folding stock would make it more easily for the Magal. The Egyptian, being so close to a real Russian, I figured would be a good choice for the traditional AK...and is probably the most accurate of the three.
-
Would love to hear more in detail how you managed to rivet like that. If it can be done and look right and efficiently, I have 3 kits to do that I would like to put out quickly, so that would definitely work.
-
Yes, I've used to search function a million times and have been researching.
After all the researching I have done, I'm fairly certain I've settled on welding. I simply do not have the knowledge, nor the tools to rivet. I have no access to a press, nor anyone around who does any gunsmithing at all to help me out. I have no jigs, and would have to do some heavy researching to understand the principle of them. I also am very low on money as I bought 3 kits, a Bulgy 74, Hungarian AMD 65, and an Egyptian Maadi, and 3 blank receivers. I have been working Construction since about age 15 though, so I have a lot of tools and knowledge on building things all around. I've done several Saigas also, so I get how an AK works and what needs to be done. I could modify bolt cutters, but I bought the kits with barrels installed, and that would be another thing I would have to learn how to do as far as removing and installing a barrel.
So, from what I have seen, welding will be the quickest, cheapest, and in my opinion the best cosmetic looking rifle. One problem: I have never welded before ever. I do have a lot of friends around that DO weld, so that's the one thing that I could possibly get help with. I found a 90 amp flux welder for under $100 at Harbor Freight that has great reviews. But I can't get a straight answer from anyone about whether I should/could use that to weld this build. Of course, I would need to practice a lot before application, but I have a lot of scraps around I can work with. My friend says that basically it might not look pretty, and i'll get splatter but it should work. But I'm counting on a file and some dremeling could pretty up a weld...it's going to be filed down flat and painted anyway.
So, the question, can I use a flux welder and have a safe rifle? I hear it's also a good all around welder that I can use for other things as well. I can get a MIG for a little more. My friend told me a TIG isn't necessary. Also, does anyone know of any good sort of welding tutorials for plug welding an AK together? Once again, I've already searched, just want to know if anyone with real knowledge knows what a good tutorial is that people might tend to use. Please don't recommend screws or rivets. I've done my research, and if you're not telling me I can rivet without a press or a jig and can just use a vice and a hammer, I've heard it before. I do wonder though, would welding a rivet in place without crushing it be helpful...or just plug welding it be acceptable? I know nothing about welding, so be easy. haha.
Thanks for your help in advance.
-
With the ridiculous unavailablity of firearms right now, I'm scraping up what I can find, also. So I found some AK74 and AK47 blank receivers. Parts kits for the two are about as scarce as everything else. So could I use Saiga parts as an option? And if so, could I use them interchangably for BOTH variants, the 74 AND 47?
Also, does this include the receiver block used on Saiga conversions for collapsible stocks?
-
put me next in line if it falls through.
-
Last time I was at my local shop (a week or so ago), they had an S12 for $500. After shipping and FFL transfer costs, that might save you $100.. if you're tight on funds and interested. For the $100, I'd probably just jump on the one you have local and have instant gratification. The one at my shop as the "velcro patch" .. if yours doesn't it might be worth it to you for the looks.
Super awesome guys though.. they don't gouge. Ever. Heck, when I had them order my 5.45 they quoted me $450 and wrote it on the receipt for my down payment. When I called back a few days later to see if it came in, they said no - their normal distributor ended up not having it in stock.. but they got me one for $385.. they could have just as easily pocketed a few extra bucks, and I wouldn't have been the wiser. I already decided they are going to get that few bucks anyhow.. I'm buying some FAL mags.
At $500, I thought about picking up a second S12. I'll probably regret not getting it.. but I have other guns I want to get. Besides.. I don't know how my lovely Russian mistress would feel about having competition in the house.
So how would we go about doing that? Could i just order directly from your FFL? Seems if i paid them shipping directly and they ship to my FFL it would probably just be simpler.
-
If you don't already know, some (most probably) CAN be less than reliable right out of the box, these are affectionately known as "vodka specials". This can be frustrating for someone who has heard how freaking cool the saiga 12 is but hasn't read anything about it. They are freaking cool, just be prepared to put some work and money in to it to make it reliable.
if its anything like its .308 counterpart, i know EXACTLY what you mean.
-
Never shot a shotgun??
i know, i know....
ive got 9 black rifles, but no shotgun. also no pistols. shot plenty though...come onnnnn 21st bday in 1 month!
-
When you go back better hope its not already sold
They have 4. They told me when they heard about the ATF they ordered all they could, but they cant get anymore. Told me they should have some no problem tomorrow, to get my money together and come get it.
This would be my first shotgun, ive never even fired one. Been firing weapons since i was probably too young to, but never a shotgun. Ive had questions about my needs for one, but everyone seems to be so crazy about them and ive always said that IF i was to get a shotgun it would definitely be a Saiga 12. Lately the MKA 1919 has come up, as has the Keltec KSG and of course the 870 and mossberg 500. However, none seem to compare to the Saiga...and they all cost more, at least before the conversion. I think my other 2 saigas will have another friend tomorrow. This thing better be all you guys crack it up to be! haha.
-
Im sure threads like this are annoying as hell about people who can't make their own decisions....
But, im really on the fence here. There's a Saiga 12 locally. It's $650. That's the best i've seen in days of late online or not. I remember when they were in the 400's and all so its still weird to call 650 a deal.
I know everybody is running their mouths about how they might never get imported again and all that panic and good stuff. One day im going to want a shotgun, that day wasnt necessarily today, but now i feel like if i want a 12 i need to get it. I wouldn't say im financially ready for a conversion, but i wouldnt exactly be in impending trouble if i made the purchase. So should i pull the trigger?
-
I have been looking around and i was just wondering where i can find a saiga 20 for a decent price. 12's are going for 650, .410's are going in the 300's, so i was a significant difference from the 12 if im going to get it, because if its within a hundred dollars or so, im just going to get a 12.
Thanks.
-
I've got a 5.7 upper for an AR. its a 12" barrel. Goes for higher than the price you have listed here. Interested in a trade?
My first AK build...questions. (welding)
in Tech Section
Posted
So I've got some "middle of the build" questions.
Trunnions are both installed, turned out great. Barrel is installed.
I've got the rails clamped now. So my first question:
The rail with the round inset, not the ejector. Should the trigger pin pass through that in the dead center, or could my hole be drilled a little off? Because mine is a little off.
The only other issue, the 7mm end of the trigger pin is slightly too low, I can tell by looking down the receiver from the back...and by looking at one of my Saigas. We're talking slight, as in....maybe a 16th. Should I weld it up and redrill, or is it not a big deal being off that much?
Also, I had the holes treated, but ended up reaming one out just a bit more because the pin was too tight...does it need to be re-treated?
Thanks for any help you can give.