TX-Zen
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Posts posted by TX-Zen
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I ordered the new PSOP 6-42
PSOP 4-24 and it's a super good scope,
You're doing it again
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and if I can ever find a 107UR for the right price, get one of those, SBR'd, set up with the wood handguards and triangle stock. THAT would be tits.
They are
(or were, I sold mine to NinerRider when I consolidated to 5.45 only. Everyone is much happier now)
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Dinzag older weld-on rear sight/gasblock mod with Izzy S12 front sight tower. I believe Dinzag does a bolt on RSB/GB now and if I needed another I'd definitely get it, the one I have has been the best thing I've done to my S12.
Welcome to the forum
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Other options for railed HG's are the LHV47 polymer lower though I can't remember for sure if this works with Dinzags HG retainer. While it doesn't have a heatshield I and others have found to be pretty resilient to heat. I also don't recommend dumping a drum on any HG but I've run 4-5 mags through the LHV in quick succession and it seemed to hold up ok.
The Russian company STK tactical makes a nice railed lower HG that does have a heat shield but it's also the heaviest one I've seen and one of the most expensive. Not sure it's worth the weight but the polymer seems to be really high quality, tougher than Izhmash or KVar from what I can see.
LHV47 on the left and STK on the right
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None on mine, never cared for BHO on AK's. Makes a little more sense on the S12 because it can be hard to insert a mag on a closed bolt, but on AK's I don't see the point. It's not doing anything that a spent shell casing can't do.
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All I'm pointing out here is that people that know nothing are usually the loudest ones saying Legions are the same as everything else. They could be, but some sharp people in the biz seem to think differently and to me that's worth considering.
My comments about grades of steel or more precise barrel forming methods have to do with reasoning about the whether the Legion barrels will last longer or shoot more precisely than sporter barrels. If mil spec only matters in barrel dimensions including proper notching grooves and markings, then the difference is insignificant as far as overall durability or precision.
I'm not saying there is no difference, but just that to matter in the areas that result in durability and precision this involves more than authentic Russian arsenal markings or proper retainer notches. Markings and notches do not make a barrel more durable or accurate. All I am saying is that until someone presents some solid evidence that Izmash uses better steel or more refined methods in making the mil spec barrels or Legion barrels versus the sporter barrels that I won't believe it.
A similar thread could have been started suggesting that Izmash mil spec receivers (select fire third hole) last 10 times what a sporter receiver lasts because the mil spec receivers are made of a much higher grade tool steel that is hammered 3 times as long and heat treated over 3 days. Someone's friend heard this from a cousin that is dating Kalishnakov's great granddaughter. Without any real way to confirm this, it just becomes a rumor or worse an internet myth. Bear in mind I own an SGL21 and absolutely love it, but could not in good conscience determine that it will outlast a sporter saiga in service life or that it will shoot significantly more precisely.
I guess it all depends on how much credibility you give to the person that's seen it first hand. If you can't accept a persons credentials nor what they have apparently seen with their own eyes then yes, this is absolutely a he said she said debate with no provable point other than heresay. All I'm saying is what people who are respected in the business have relayed to me. You guys are welcome to take it or leave it. As for me, I'm generally very critical of what people say and do even if I don't say much about it. Even when I respect someone I don't take their word for granted, I will usually try and find some kind of corroboration. In this case the same kind of information has come from multiple sources who either have been to Izhmash or have contacts that they can rely on, so it all seems to match up.
Anyway as I said take it for what it is, I'm not trying to insist or be antagonistic just relaying things that make sense the way it was explained to me.
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Probably for the same reason that a lot of strange things happen. It is Izhmash....if they are running short on sporter barrels but have a surplus of military barrels to me it makes sense they would use what they had.
I'm not saying that there is an entirely different barrel manufacturing plant for each type of Saiga, SGL or AK manufactured at Izhmash (and if it sounds that way I apologize), what I'm saying is that when they make barrels, FSB's, top covers etc they are probably doing it in batches intended for one type of rifle or the other. After the parts are built they are sent to where ever they are needed and finished up from there. In the case of sporter barrels they don't bother with HG retainers etc, in the case of SGL's they do.
If they made 500 parts to build sporters and 500 parts to build SGL's or other AK's they'd end up with a stock pile of both. Hypothetically if the military decided on 400 AK74M's and US importers asked for 600 sporters to me it makes sense they might take from the already finished military pile for the barrels they need on the sporter sale rather than build another 100 sporter barrels which will then leave 100 military barrels sitting there doing nothing. Izhmash isn't a multi billion dollar corp with money to burn, they have a tendency not to pay their people, run up huge debt and then restructure to get it sorted out. To me it wouldn't make sense to have tons of excess sitting around because that all costs money to build in the first place...but this IS Izhmash we're talking about so anything could be happening for all we know.
So like I said I haven't been there and won't say this is the gospel, but this is the way it has been explained to me to by a few people, and I'm trying to explain it back.
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Thanks for the answers guys. Does anyone have a picture or 2 of a saiga12 with a shortened barrel and a brake adding up to the 18" OAL? I'd like to see some.
18.5" just to be on the safe side
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The way it was explained to me by people who have been to Izhmash and seen first hand is that Legion uses parts built on the military assembly line including barrels. Saiga sporters are built in a different part of Izhmash on the civilian assembly line.
At Izhmash nothing is milspec until the rifle has been accepted for service in a military order, when it is random testing has to prove it's built to specs and is GTG. In order to be able to pass random testing all the parts naturally have to be what we would consider milspec. Sporters OTOH do not get the same QC applied to them because they will not be going into military service...they aren't rejects, they just aren't held to the standard that the military would accept. Since Legions are built on the military side of the house it stands to reason they would have higher quality parts than the sporters.
Personally I haven't been there to see for myself and can't say for sure. However guys like Chris Butler are well respected in the AK industry, he's one of the top builders and is in a very select few that can do perfect clones of the AK103. There are a number of different people that have told me the same thing...some Russians that are well connected and have been there, some Americans that are well connected and been there too and guys like Chris Butler who make a living on knowing the details of these rifles. Again I haven't seen for myself but I have to think the quality on a Legion is more than Arsenal marketing hype, the people that have seen this stuff first hand aren't the kind of people that need to feel good about the money they spent on their precious SGL, they are the kind of people that have to have the exact match to what Izhmash builds.
So in this case where I haven't been there to see it first hand I have to consider the information I do know. People that have excellent credibility have told me there is more to the Legion than marketing hype, I tend to think that makes sense rather than the purely cynical view that Arsenal is just trying to sell more guns. The argument is tricky...it boils down to people who know absolutely nothing about guys like Chris Butler, Legion or Izhmash and who insist that SGL's are just converted Saiga's without having any solid facts. The same people also use the argument that people who buy SGL's are just trying to justify the stupid price they paid for them. The other side of the argument is a number of people in the business that seem to know what's going on the inside of Izhmash and have been there to see in person.
As for me, in general I tend to side with people that have some first hand knowledge vs those who have none. In this case I'm still on the fence on a final decision...I tend to believe there is more to the Legion than just a converted sporter but I won't say it's fact until I personally know for sure. All I'm pointing out here is that people that know nothing are usually the loudest ones saying Legions are the same as everything else. They could be, but some sharp people in the biz seem to think differently and to me that's worth considering.
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Well that's mighty kind of you JP, thanks!
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I haven't found anyone to translate the manual yet but the range finder is based on the width of the target not the height like PSO type optics. 1P78 Kashtan uses the width also but it's definitely a rarity in combloc optics, at least the ones I've seen that have range finders.
Here's a better pic I stole off the net:
It's very light even though it looks huge, it's also well balanced and doesn't adversely affect the rifle when mounted. I need to get out to the range and get it zeroed but I have used a friend's and had a great time at 300 yards with his.
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The saiga 7.62x39 is essentially an AK74 but really a 100 series type which happens to be in the caliber 7.62x39.
Just to clarify
AK74M = 5.45x39
AK100 series = AK74M in other calibers
AK101 = 5.56
AK103 = 7.62
So the 7.62 Saiga isn't a 100 series that happens to be 7.62x39, it IS a 100 series because's it a 74M pattern in 7.62
You're correct, you just need to tidy it up a bit.
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The SLR107 series is GTG, just try and inspect it if you can.
During the 2007-2009 era the SLR107's got hit by a bunch of QC issues at Arsenal and damaged what had been a really fantastic reputation before that. There were very common problems with canted sights and other minor (and occasionally major) factory defects. Arsenal's now legendary reputation for being a-holes about customer service reared it's ugly head in this period also.
That being said most of the complaints were based on owners expecting a flawless rifle due to the high price tag and being shocked that a company as famous as Arsenal was kicking out those kinds of problems for that kind of money. The majority of them were fixable IIRC and really it seemed to me that most rifles were ok but there was a tendency for some people to be extremely vocal and raise hell. I don't necessarily blame them either, the rifles weren't cheap and Arsenal was always touted as deserving a premium because of quality which at that time wasn't being delivered. It was also a mix of rational complaints and guys that did nothing but hit every forum screaming bloody murder with an axe to grind. Not a good time for Arsenal and they handled it poorly overall.
Because of Arsenal's prior reputation and my estimate on the probability of actually getting a lemon (plus my experience with my SLR105), I bought a 107UR sight unseen and it was perfect. Other people I know bought different 107's and had no issues.
Factory finish is Bulgarian black ink and will run from most any harsh cleaner, stick to CLP and you'll be fine. It's very different than the Izhmash finish and people still get them mixed up but the Izhmash finish is much tougher than the Bulgarian Arsenal finish. Still not tough enough for harsh cleaners but much more durable overall.
The SLR107FR is similar to an eighties era AKS74 rifle but in 7.62... so it's not the same as the modern SGL21 which is an AK103 pattern rifle. Functionally they should perform the same though, both use high quality combloc chrome lined barrels and are factory built guns. The 107 also uses 4.5mm hardware for the folding trunnion instead of the AK74M/AK100 series which uses 5.5mm hardware. Triangle and poly folders are made in both sizes you just have to know what to look for.
If I were into 7.62 I'd already have a few of them. A friend recently bought a 107CR and combined with my opinion of the 107UR I think they are some of the best factory rifles built. Like I said just try and inspect it if you can or be ready to fix a canted FSB or a similar kind of issue. Other than that I think they are a good purchase and a decent value because they come with the folder already installed...cheaper in the end because you won't be paying $300 for the hardware, $300 for the install and $150 for the refinish job.
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Tx, don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion, look up to your expertise, and bow to your collection. But it is not a shambala 030, it IS a saiga 12 after all. I would like to see how the trunnion is different. I am not saying the gun is not worth it. I said I dunno.
I would imagine they are based mostly off of the same design as the base saiga 12 with factory upgrades. Not impossible to replicate. There are many versions made at izhmash of the saiga 12.
The rumors of preapproval are kind of unsubstantiated too right? Is there any proof of this? My point here is being if they were already approved then the wait time should have/would have not been so long. How long have they been reportedly approved?
Id like to see them come in......and yea, I'm jelly!
I'm not saying you're wrong either because you're not. Like I said value is a relative thing.
Only thing I'm saying is that the 030 really isn't an S12 simply because it looks similar...there are significant design differences and most of the parts are not interchangeable.
For example you can easily say that an AKSU, a Draco and an M92 are Krink's and it's more or less a correct term for them all, at least in common usage. They are all short barrelled AK's and function nearly identically...to many people that's the end of that, a Krink is a Krink. But if you know the details you know that all 3 are quite different. That's what I'm getting at with the 030.
You know I respect your opinion too and I'm not trying to bust your balls...just trying to explain my perspective on this. I've been in the grey market and dealt with people who buy direct from Izhmash and overseas dealers myself for a long time now and it's just a different world than the ultra reliable S12 market we have in the states. If Izhmash was as fast and courteous as Tromix or CSS they'd be trillionaires in no time.
Also the pre approval is legit and real. The ATF have authorized these 200 to come in and authorized them a while ago. It's Izhmash being Izhmash when it comes to the delays. And though the S12 study did delay the 030 import, they've been approved for long enough that's not the issue. Remember Izhmash is global, catering to the US market in less than thousands of guns at a time probably isn't a priority for them...like I said it's Russia
Cheers though, it's all good
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You just made my point. Aside from the gas system, and mentioning all the extras you need to buy and still put work into the gun, you could get real close at having one already instead of waiting three years to find out it might have been a scam. I understand the collector value and rarity. But that doesn't mean shit if they never come.
I like the gun don't get me wrong, and the price point seems about right. But I like to DIY, and innovation can go a long way. Seems to me one could get really close long before these ever see the American soil we stand on for roughly the same price.
Not sure what to say here to be honest.
It hasn't been 3 years, it's been one. If you aren't familiar with how the Russian market works then you're not familiar with how the Russian market works...short explanation is things take time. It took about a year to get the SV98's here also. Same guy, same deal and same dealing with Izhmash. SV98's are in the country. Highly likely the 030's will be too.
Yes there is always some level of risk because you're dealing with Russia. But this isn't the grey market either where you're dealing with some guy who shuffles through warehouses and sneaks stuff past Russian or Ukranian customs, this is an ATF approved import direct from Izhmash. There's months of paperwork involved on both sides to get it moving. Izhmash is never in a hurry...ask anyone who deals with them. I'm surprised it's only been a year.
But like I said no matter what you do to a Saiga 12 it isn't a version 030 and never will be. It doesn't get any simpler than that no matter how you dress it up because virtually everything is different...barrel, receiver, trunnion, gas system, piston etc. For some people a look alike is fine, for others it isn't. It's a matter of personal prefence and the cost/value is subjective.
So really there is no point to prove. Either you know what they are and they'r worth it to you, or they look like every other S12 out there and they're not.
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You can swap the base on the POSP optics yes and you are right there are 4 screws that need to be removed. Often there are two pins and some loc-tite like substance or glue that seals the base to the optic but some gentle tapping with a mallet to break the seal is all that's needed.
Kalinka typically carries the BelOMO/Zenit/LEMT manufactured MTK83 AK style mount. It's probably going to be black and may not match your 8x42 but it should work.
Here's an LPS/TIP2 that has the romanian SVD mount removed and replaced with the MTK83 Kalinka AK mount:
And an example of the AK mount on an 8x42
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I dunno, for the price of all the needed extras in addition, one could be assembled for cheaper from a plane jane saiga 12. I mean half the gun still needs to be worked on to have proper. The only thing unreasonable might be the gas system.
Not even....
What about the sights, the hinged dust cover, Russian magwell with two mags, LRBHO, ability to swap the HGs with other AK HGs, all the rest of the original Russian parts, and the fact that it's an original, not a knock off made up to look like the real thing. These will do more than just hold their value, especially given the very limited number that were approved for import. The price isn't really all that high considering what you actually get with these. It's not hard at all to drop 1500 bucks on a regular S-12 conversion if you use good parts. I spent close to that on my first S-12 by the time it was finished, and I fabricated my own parts to make it look like I wanted, didn't just go out and buy 'bolt on' parts, not that I could have...
+1 Cobra
I have a regular ol IZ109 and have over 2K in parts in it right now. Love mine but even with all the Russian parts it doesn't have an auto adjusting gas system or hinged top cover not to mention under gasblock rail or HG's as you said. Basically I spent more than an entire version 030 just to get close to what a version 030 has from the get-go...actually the version 030 was the role model for my conversion and I'm still not there.
I think debating whether it's worth the money is probably silly though. Collectors know what it is and why it's such an interesting investment. Guys like that just like to shoot 12G may not see the same thing in the 030 and there's no harm in that, but there's a big difference in what that $1500 gets you vs a plain jane IZ109. Basically the point being that an IZ109 is a different shotgun than the 030. You can't make an S12 into a 030 without an assload of talent like SaigaTech...AND you'll almost certainly need $1500+ to get it done.
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Thanks from me also, I appreciate you taking the time to post. Even better that Brian contacted you so quickly.
Since theakforum.net has locked his subforum I posted your comments over there so people would have an idea of what's going on.
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Personally I love the PK-AS and have used it for a long time on several 74's. I used it for a while on my S12 too but unfortunately the S12 beat it up pretty good.
Kalinka's description is excellent and in practice the optic works pretty darn well. Actually up until last year the PK-AS was my favorite combloc red dot by far.
But these days the 1P76 Rakurs does everything the PK-AS does and more...think of it as an improved version that has eliminated the few disadvantages of the PK-AS. For example Rakurs is centered over the bore and relatively low...easier for Western shooters to get used to it. PK-AS is actually good in a dynamic situation partly because of the left offset but most people can't get past how far left it is. They get turned off and don't spend the time to get to know it. Other people can't get over the higher position for the model that's centered over the bore. There is eye relief on the PK-AS and you must train to get used to it, Rakurs has none.
While I love the always on black dot (and the ring too) it does need batteries for low light. Not really a show stopper IMO but again Rakurs needs none at all. No optic that I know of has the FOV of the PK-AS when used with both eyes open, the body is so thin it effectively disappears during shooting and all you see is the dot and ring. 1P63 Obzor is close, but even Rakurs isn't that good, though that doesn't override the other features of the Rakurs, to me anyway.
PK-AS is a little lighter than Rakurs. It's hard to say which is tougher or more durable but I'm leaning toward Rakurs just because the scope body is massive compared to the glass and it's a little more shrouded than the PK-AS. Rakurs has a different clamping mechanism which in my subjective observation allows it to mount to a wider variety of rail tolerances. The PK-AS is a universal mount but the design is less adjustable compared to the NPZ universal AK based we see on many optics.
Zeroing the PK-AS is tricky and can be difficult. This is also a turn off to first time users. Rakurs is really simple, a dime or a screw driver is all you need. Both have proven to me to have repeatable and dependable return to zero, something I think is generally true of most combloc optics. You sometimes have to be aware that different builders or factory runs may not have the rails done correctly 100% of the time but in my experience it's relatively rare and not a show stopper. For your SHTF rifle you'd want to have trained with your optic way before D Day, the problem if any will be obvious long before it's too late to fix it.
I've had 10-12 different AK's and currently 19 different optics. Only one optic had a problem with the mount. My PSL had a canted rail that affected zero (reticule at the very top of the LPS field of view) and one of my two SGL31's has a canted rail which doesn't affect any optic zero, it's just different from the other SGL.
Anyway not to drag on but while the PK-AS is a really good optic, 1P76 Rakurs is the same concept but improved on. I think the Rakurs is the evolutionary improvement based experience with the PK-AS.
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I apologize for not being able to zero you in exactly what you should do, I'm just not comfortable telling people what optic they should use for a real SHTF situation. I know what I'd do but I have a really different persepective on SHTF than many people. I'm also ex military with a corresponding healthy appreciation for sh*t breaks all the time, I don't believe in chasing endless what-if's or running down every detail to account for all scenarios. And I don't believe in the often narrow view that the best gear is going to make the difference, I believe it's the training first and foremost.
My PM wasn't meant as a refusal to help...I'm happy to answer any technical questions on how the Russian optics work. But I'm not the guy who wants you to make serious decisions that affect your family based on my subjective opinion...because mine is based on what I would do. I can only share my technical experience, I'm not in the position to tell you what you the best choice is because there are too many variables.
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Basically it's two things, the Bulgarian TG is squared off under the PG while the Izzy is rounded.
Additionally the Izzy has a clover edge with a square plate underneath (circled in red). The Bulgarian is normally square and has no clover but someone has apparently dremelled the TG into a clover...along with the square plate underneath. It looks like this is done after the TG is riveted in place.
There was a discussion on this over at theakforum.net, it seems the Russians for sure have a clover on the TG but not the plate underneath. The Bulgarians don't use a clover at all....so if it's both the TG and the plate it seems likely to be a cosmetic dremel job.
Also check http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/variants.html a ways down, they show the 3 main types of trigger guards. Remember Bulgarian basically means Russian but the Bulgarians never modernized their original AK74 machinery, unlike the Russians who did. What that means is that more or less in the eighties they had very similar AK74's, but definitely in the early 90's the Russians had condensed a lot of changes into the AK74M which makes it much easier to tell them apart.
The Bulgarian TG appears to be a type B and the AK74M or SGL31 trigger guard should be the type C. The pics aren't great on the site but the debate was interesting and helped me form the base of what I've been saying in this thread.
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perhaps. time will tell. I may end up a fool out of his $ or I might end up with two rare shotguns. At this point I care but not that much anymore. Sure I worked hard for the $ but whats complaining going to get me. If those who put all thier money in including me get screwed over, then we wont make that mistake again will we. Im going to stay positive and have faith in the man. Still have no reason to doubt him. Hes mentioned numerous times that its taking this long due to red tape and such. I see how long it takes oleg to get parts in and how much he gets delayed on his shipments so Ive come to expect long wait periods for stuff like this. OMV.
AZG
+1 and well said
Despite theakforum.net locking his subforum and pretending to be shocked they didn't know he was selling 030's (after they gave him vendor status to do just that), I still have faith this will get done.
I get worried now and then because no one likes the thought of losing money, but I've said before this isn't the first time I've had to wait this long on stuff that was more expensive than a paid in full 030. Occasional nerves and inevitable delays pretty much characterize these kinds of deals with rare Russian gear. Ivan running around with your money is unfortunately part of the game.
Lastly, theakforum.net's stance on this adds unnecessary fire and IMO is a poor and transparent excuse for whatever the real reason is they locked it down.
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Gun shops never give good trades. The used car comparison was spot on. I always sell mine locally. No tax for the buyer and you get what your gun is worth, or at least more than a gun store trade in. I'd say with what you have you could get $700-$800 on the private market. The 8x scope is worth $200 by itself.
I agree with this. In effect the gun store is offering you about $225 for your rifle. Screw em and sell it on the EE you'll get much closer to Ice's estimate.
AAR - Dragunov long range marksmanship class - Behind The Lines Winter
in General Discussion - Any topic is welcome here!!!
Posted
Back from the depths, the new class is on for January 28-29 2012
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