czech 7.62x25 ammo, in a yugo m57 tokarev.

[psl sniper 963]

so ive read alot of back and forth between the strength of the cz 52 vs the t33 design. a gentlemen by the name of clark magnuson posted some interesting results using hot handloads. in his tests he shows where the cz's chamber is actually thinner than the t33 design. in his tests the cz failed at loads the t33 could handle. but on the flip side ive herad stories of the t33 chamber holding up fine but the barrel splitting. i recently came across 2 boxes of the czech ammo.

1 group says the t33 is stronger.

the other says the cz is stronger.

ive actually seen the damaged czs, but not one pic of a damaged tokarev.

 

so basicly my question is does anyone actualy have proof that the t33 design cant handle the hotter ammo? pics of dammaged barrels?

or.. has anyone actually tried some hot czech loads in any of the t33 designs? i know the yugo is supposed to be one of the stronger of the tokarevs. any input would be great.

[kresk 10,063]

I've been told, by a master gunsmith trained at the Brno factory, that the CZ was built to withstand the hot ammo originally designed for machine guns. Have also heard that the TT's can handle that ammo and are/were used by the Russian Mafia to defeat light armor.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

[psl sniper 963]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

thanks for the info. i actually sat down and did some research. come to find out the t33 design is actually supposed to be stronger than the cz. who knew? a gentleman named clark magnuson did some experiments with the 2. he proceeded to load hotter and hotter loads, to see what was stronger. turns out that the cz rolling lock design makes a weak point in the chamber.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

thanks for the info. i actually sat down and did some research. come to find out the t33 design is actually supposed to be stronger than the cz. who knew? a gentleman named clark magnuson did some experiments with the 2. he proceeded to load hotter and hotter loads, to see what was stronger. turns out that the cz rolling lock design makes a weak point in the chamber.

 

A lot of it probably has to do with the relative feel of each pistol. The TT-33 has looser tolerances, definitely has a lot of rattle to it, and doesn't weigh very much. The CZ-52 is heavier, has very little rattle to it, and just sort of looks and feels beefy. Could be the myth is a simple case of reading a book by its cover.

[Azrial 1,091]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

thanks for the info. i actually sat down and did some research. come to find out the t33 design is actually supposed to be stronger than the cz. who knew? a gentleman named clark magnuson did some experiments with the 2. he proceeded to load hotter and hotter loads, to see what was stronger. turns out that the cz rolling lock design makes a weak point in the chamber.

Could be, it could also be that Clark Magnuson's study is the only one that I have found that seems to suggest this. I have shot a TT33 quite a bit and own a CZ VZ52. I will not pretend that this is a "test" but I will say the same thing about the Magnuson opinion. There is a lot more to which pistol is stronger then which has the thickest chamber. My money is on the CZ! I just wish its sights were better!

 

BTW, I just ordered another 5M rounds.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

thanks for the info. i actually sat down and did some research. come to find out the t33 design is actually supposed to be stronger than the cz. who knew? a gentleman named clark magnuson did some experiments with the 2. he proceeded to load hotter and hotter loads, to see what was stronger. turns out that the cz rolling lock design makes a weak point in the chamber.

Could be, it could also be that Clark Magnuson's study is the only one that I have found that seems to suggest this. I have shot a TT33 quite a bit and own a CZ VZ52. I will not pretend that this is a "test" but I will say the same thing about the Magnuson opinion. There is a lot more to which pistol is stronger then which has the thickest chamber. My money is on the CZ! I just wish its sights were better!

 

BTW, I just ordered another 5M rounds.

 

5M or 5K?

 

I've never exploded either weapon, or seen one exploded. I've heard plenty of stories of Hungarian ammo blowing up either kind of gun, but didn't experience any greater muzzle flash or recoil with the batch my guns ate.

[psl sniper 963]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

thanks for the info. i actually sat down and did some research. come to find out the t33 design is actually supposed to be stronger than the cz. who knew? a gentleman named clark magnuson did some experiments with the 2. he proceeded to load hotter and hotter loads, to see what was stronger. turns out that the cz rolling lock design makes a weak point in the chamber.

 

A lot of it probably has to do with the relative feel of each pistol. The TT-33 has looser tolerances, definitely has a lot of rattle to it, and doesn't weigh very much. The CZ-52 is heavier, has very little rattle to it, and just sort of looks and feels beefy. Could be the myth is a simple case of reading a book by its cover.

 

well my yugo m57 does not rattle. the lock up is very tight.

[psl sniper 963]

I bought a bunch of Czech 7.62x25 a while back - the stuff in 40 rounds boxes on 8-round stripper clips, clearly intended for use with the CZ 24/26 SMGs. It's all headstamped '52 and '53. I've fired plenty of it through my CZ 52s, and through my Chinese type 54 (TT-33 clone). I haven't had any problems with any of the pistols. Felt recoil and muzzle flash is only a little greater with the Czech ammo vs. Polish, Romanian, and modern brass-cased, boxer-primed stuff.

thanks for the info. i actually sat down and did some research. come to find out the t33 design is actually supposed to be stronger than the cz. who knew? a gentleman named clark magnuson did some experiments with the 2. he proceeded to load hotter and hotter loads, to see what was stronger. turns out that the cz rolling lock design makes a weak point in the chamber.

Could be, it could also be that Clark Magnuson's study is the only one that I have found that seems to suggest this. I have shot a TT33 quite a bit and own a CZ VZ52. I will not pretend that this is a "test" but I will say the same thing about the Magnuson opinion. There is a lot more to which pistol is stronger then which has the thickest chamber. My money is on the CZ! I just wish its sights were better!

 

BTW, I just ordered another 5M rounds.

hate to say this, but where is the evidence? ive seen cz 52s blown out, have yet to see a tt33 blown.

[tktm 13]

The CZ "strength" compared to the tokarev is hype and marketing. Based on velocities, CZ-52 ammo is no "hotter" than standard Tokarev ammo. Moreover, you won't find a CZ52 chambered in .38 super, a tok yes. The other thing I have noticed is that the new old stock CZ52s tend to break right out of the box, I have personally seen this numerous times. If you want a CZ52, its best to get the ones that were arsenal repaired.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

And I've experienced it. One of my CZ-52 pistols broke a firing pin after a few magazines (I did not dry fire the pistol, although it's possible the previous owner did). The other one actually lost the pin that retains the extractor claw and spring, while I was firing the pistol. Now they're both up and running, and I've had no more issues, thanks in part to the wide availability of parts for these guns.

[Azrial 1,091]

Well you have to wonder why the 1950's era Czechoslovakia Communists have been so busy marketing their surplus pistol for modern American use.. but the roller locking system of the CZ52 is a good bit stronger then the comparatively crude TT33.

 

The only study that contradicts this is Clark Magnuson's and that is the single point that TT33 owners have used to promote their pistols every since. One of the flaws in the TT33 is most you will see in this country have been re-engineered to have a thumb mounted safety. I have seen one cracked there.

 

Do not get me wrong, I like the TT33 and would not mind having one as well. I believe that either will hold up well under any normal load. As I have stated I took some precautions with mine and put in a 2 LBs heaver Wolfe Recoil Spring and a pair of improved rollers. These firing pins were made of sistered steel and were not intended for dry firing so I have also upgraded the firing pin to a machined steel unit. This also helps correct the heavy trigger pull.

 

I also think that the "Super hot Czech Machine Gun Only" ammo was just a mis-loaded batch. Typical Communist quality control. It was not a feature, it was a flaw.

 

Yes, I bought over 5M of this caliber. "M" is 1000 in Roman numerals and "K" is not a number under the Roman System.

 

I am thinking of ordering more and would encourage folks here to consider one of these pistols while the ammo is very cheap. They make great training pistols and the only real flaw I see in my CZ is the diminutive sights! I am still looking for a cost effective solution for that!

 

I have fired mine at about 130 Yards and managed to keep them on a man sized silo without much effort. They are very flat shooting and fun, but due to the small caliber, I would not recommend them for self-defense. Unless of course, that is all you had.

[tktm 13]

Well you have to wonder why the 1950's era Czechoslovakia Communists have been so busy marketing their surplus pistol for modern American use.. but the roller locking system of the CZ52 is a good bit stronger then the comparatively crude TT33.

 

The only study that contradicts this is Clark Magnuson's and that is the single point that TT33 owners have used to promote their pistols every since. One of the flaws in the TT33 is most you will see in this country have been re-engineered to have a thumb mounted safety. I have seen one cracked there.

.......

 

I also think that the "Super hot Czech Machine Gun Only" ammo was just a mis-loaded batch. Typical Communist quality control. It was not a feature, it was a flaw.

 

 

You made my point for me. AFAIK the commies never indicated the CZ52 was some how supposed to handle ammo that was hotter than the Tok was designed for; that is a more recent claim put out about the time Century started importing the CZ52. As you yourself point out, the Czech ammo isn't any hotter, so the commies would have never made claims about the CZ52 being designed for hotter ammo. I think the first mention anyone ever made about CZ being stronger to handle hotter ammo was from Peter Kokalis way back when. Someone just put together the incorrect information of "hotter" ammo and their knowledge of HK using the rolling locker design in their 308 and just assumed that the CZ52 was designed to handle hotter ammo.

 

There is a reason why you won't find a .38 super barrel for the CZ, where as you can find them for the TOK. The TOK can handle hotter loads than the CZ; but, the hotter loads will result in faster wear of the tok's barrel locking lugs. The CZ's also break more readily than the Toks. Tokarevs are near indestructible, but they do have a higher potential for ND's related to mishandling. I just wish someone made a Glock in 7.62x25

[psl sniper 963]

Well you have to wonder why the 1950's era Czechoslovakia Communists have been so busy marketing their surplus pistol for modern American use.. but the roller locking system of the CZ52 is a good bit stronger then the comparatively crude TT33.

 

The only study that contradicts this is Clark Magnuson's and that is the single point that TT33 owners have used to promote their pistols every since. One of the flaws in the TT33 is most you will see in this country have been re-engineered to have a thumb mounted safety. I have seen one cracked there.

.......

 

I also think that the "Super hot Czech Machine Gun Only" ammo was just a mis-loaded batch. Typical Communist quality control. It was not a feature, it was a flaw.

 

 

You made my point for me. AFAIK the commies never indicated the CZ52 was some how supposed to handle ammo that was hotter than the Tok was designed for; that is a more recent claim put out about the time Century started importing the CZ52. As you yourself point out, the Czech ammo isn't any hotter, so the commies would have never made claims about the CZ52 being designed for hotter ammo. I think the first mention anyone ever made about CZ being stronger to handle hotter ammo was from Peter Kokalis way back when. Someone just put together the incorrect information of "hotter" ammo and their knowledge of HK using the rolling locker design in their 308 and just assumed that the CZ52 was designed to handle hotter ammo.

 

There is a reason why you won't find a .38 super barrel for the CZ, where as you can find them for the TOK. The TOK can handle hotter loads than the CZ; but, the hotter loads will result in faster wear of the tok's barrel locking lugs. The CZ's also break more readily than the Toks. Tokarevs are near indestructible, but they do have a higher potential for ND's related to mishandling. I just wish someone made a Glock in 7.62x25

jg sales just released a kit for converting a 1911 to 7.62x25.

[psl sniper 963]

well i went and tried some of the czech ammo out, one mag of the brass cased stuff, and another mag of the supposed hotter laquered cased ammo. ...............

 

 

i am rather disapointed. i guess i was expecting something more. i noticed ABSOLUTELY no difference. recoil was actually milder than the polish stuff ive been shooting. my yugo is still in one piece. so, yeah guess ill lay this one to rest.

[Azrial 1,091]

You made my point for me. AFAIK the commies never indicated the CZ52 was some how supposed to handle ammo that was hotter than the Tok was designed for; that is a more recent claim put out about the time Century started importing the CZ52. As you yourself point out, the Czech ammo isn't any hotter, so the commies would have never made claims about the CZ52 being designed for hotter ammo. I think the first mention anyone ever made about CZ being stronger to handle hotter ammo was from Peter Kokalis way back when. Someone just put together the incorrect information of "hotter" ammo and their knowledge of HK using the rolling locker design in their 308 and just assumed that the CZ52 was designed to handle hotter ammo.

 

There is a reason why you won't find a .38 super barrel for the CZ, where as you can find them for the TOK. The TOK can handle hotter loads than the CZ; but, the hotter loads will result in faster wear of the tok's barrel locking lugs. The CZ's also break more readily than the Toks. Tokarevs are near indestructible, but they do have a higher potential for ND's related to mishandling. I just wish someone made a Glock in 7.62x25

 

No I made my own point, you just now agree that there was no deliberate intent to make a pistol that was designed to take a deliberately hotter version of the same round.

 

There is a 9x23mm barrel for the CZ52, I had no idea that there was one made for the TT33. I will wager that like the CZ52 barrel it is intended for the dimensionally similar, 9x23mm, yet lower pressure 9mm Largo! Not the .38 Super.

 

Besides, how could and aftermarket barre,l made years later, in any way effect the strength of any pistol? This whole "CZ52's are not as strong as Toks" is just your opinion. You are welcome to it, just don't confuse it with a fact. Mine is an opinion as well, it is just the majority view, with you and Magnuson dissenting.

[Azrial 1,091]

jg sales just released a kit for converting a 1911 to 7.62x25.

This is true! However keep in mind that this conversion only works with the 9mm and .38 Super model 1911s and that you can load no more then 5-6 rounds per mag from what I have read. You would be better off with a Tok or a CZ!

[tktm 13]

You made my point for me. AFAIK the commies never indicated the CZ52 was some how supposed to handle ammo that was hotter than the Tok was designed for; that is a more recent claim put out about the time Century started importing the CZ52. As you yourself point out, the Czech ammo isn't any hotter, so the commies would have never made claims about the CZ52 being designed for hotter ammo. I think the first mention anyone ever made about CZ being stronger to handle hotter ammo was from Peter Kokalis way back when. Someone just put together the incorrect information of "hotter" ammo and their knowledge of HK using the rolling locker design in their 308 and just assumed that the CZ52 was designed to handle hotter ammo.

 

There is a reason why you won't find a .38 super barrel for the CZ, where as you can find them for the TOK. The TOK can handle hotter loads than the CZ; but, the hotter loads will result in faster wear of the tok's barrel locking lugs. The CZ's also break more readily than the Toks. Tokarevs are near indestructible, but they do have a higher potential for ND's related to mishandling. I just wish someone made a Glock in 7.62x25

 

No I made my own point, you just now agree that there was no deliberate intent to make a pistol that was designed to take a deliberately hotter version of the same round.

 

There is a 9x23mm barrel for the CZ52, I had no idea that there was one made for the TT33. I will wager that like the CZ52 barrel it is intended for the dimensionally similar, 9x23mm, yet lower pressure 9mm Largo! Not the .38 Super.

 

Besides, how could and aftermarket barre,l made years later, in any way effect the strength of any pistol? This whole "CZ52's are not as strong as Toks" is just your opinion. You are welcome to it, just don't confuse it with a fact. Mine is an opinion as well, it is just the majority view, with you and Magnuson dissenting.

 

sounds like we are close to violent agreement :-)

Norinco did release tok in the USA with 7.62x25, 9mm and .38 super. barrels.

The marketing to sell CZs occurred in the USA via the importers

 

[Azrial 1,091]

sounds like we are close to violent agreement :-)

Norinco did release tok in the USA with 7.62x25, 9mm and .38 super. barrels.

The marketing to sell CZs occurred in the USA via the importers

 

We are certainly getting there! But I will point out that the Chinese at Norinco did not design the TT33, just slavishly copied it.

 

Also, the Chinese have also been known to put diethylene glycol antifreeze in toothpaste, so I would be a little uncomfortable in citing them as a paragon in the area of consumer safety...

 

For what it is worth, the CZ52 did not like the .38 Super for long term use. It was unsafe. However I would love to find one of these barrels as 9mm Largo is one of the last cheap pistol ammos, next to 7.62x25mm Tok!

 

I have read that the Norinco was available as a double stack varient in 9mmP, but have never been able to find a live example of this. If so, I would love to take a stab at building the holy grail of 7.62x25mm shooters, a double stack pistol in that caliber!

[tktm 13]

I have seen the double stack 9mm at gun shows; and within the last few years one of the bigger sellers (CDNN maybe) was selling the double stack mags. I took a quick look at one once, and I have a faint memory that the mag well was designed as 9mm.

[Azrial 1,091]

I have seen the double stack 9mm at gun shows; and within the last few years one of the bigger sellers (CDNN maybe) was selling the double stack mags. I took a quick look at one once, and I have a faint memory that the mag well was designed as 9mm.

That is true, it may well be too short for the 7.62x25...

[psl sniper 963]

wonder if the 38 super barrel would work with the 9mm largo. id like to get a complete set of barrels for my yugo.

[psl sniper 963]

sounds like we are close to violent agreement :-)

Norinco did release tok in the USA with 7.62x25, 9mm and .38 super. barrels.

The marketing to sell CZs occurred in the USA via the importers

 

We are certainly getting there! But I will point out that the Chinese at Norinco did not design the TT33, just slavishly copied it.

 

Also, the Chinese have also been known to put diethylene glycol antifreeze in toothpaste, so I would be a little uncomfortable in citing them as a paragon in the area of consumer safety...

 

For what it is worth, the CZ52 did not like the .38 Super for long term use. It was unsafe. However I would love to find one of these barrels as 9mm Largo is one of the last cheap pistol ammos, next to 7.62x25mm Tok!

 

I have read that the Norinco was available as a double stack varient in 9mmP, but have never been able to find a live example of this. If so, I would love to take a stab at building the holy grail of 7.62x25mm shooters, a double stack pistol in that caliber!

where are you finding the 9mm largo cheap? might be fun to stock up on.

[Azrial 1,091]

I think that J&G had it, it is almost the same as round as the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard and 9mm Bayard Long, all 9x23mm and of roughly similar pressure. Its price fluctuates and right now the only people I know of for sure that have it are Long Mountain Outfitters, LLC, and their price is 15 cent a round when bought in lots of 1000 (M) at $204.50, plus shipping. It is old Spanish 1961-66 127gr FMJ and not as good a deal, right now as the 7.62x25mm Tok. However, I have seen it fairly recently as low as $80/M!

 

I used to shoot this stuff by the case in an old .38 Super Colt Commander I had!

 

I would like a 9x23mm barrel for my CZ52, if the price was right...

Edited February 27, 2011 by Azrial