frick
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Posts posted by frick
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SP, ask him if he could buy a modded, short barrel, Saiga, from the USA, and have it shipped to him in Russia, my point was more that some of the most common things we take for granted, most other countries people wish for.
My brother in law's cousin from Italy, came to the USA, and wanted to shoot a Beretta M9. He served in the Italian Military, and never once fired a pistol, or, for that matter, any type of long arm. He trained with them but was never issued ammo, or allowed to actually fire a weapon.
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No, its STILL in hunting condition, don't EVER FORGET that its a SPORTING WEAPON!
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Just wondering where Bob Ash of TROMIX would place my opinion?
Am I tin foil hat? Perhaps ignorant opinion? I think probably "armchair gunsmith" because I have advocated double thinking the permanent conversion process from the beginning.
You wanna see EAT YOUR OWN?
Look at Olympic Arms, they have NEVER regained their stature after the whole steel core ammo fiasco, and, why should they, a bad BUSINESS decision, to chamber four test pistols in 7.62 x 39 cost a whole lot of other BUSINESSES, millions, no, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, in lost ammo sales.
IF, and as I have STATED IF, the ATF comes down on the Saiga platform, there are gonna be a whole lot of folks, who remember the MD20 drum in the initial report. Is it unfair, I dunno, ask Olympic Arms, it was a business decision, they are familiar with the ramifications.
And as for Tromix, I am sure that you can find an overseas market for scary looking door breachers, and 4" barreled, fully automatic Saigas, much like the current owner of the Striker12 has done.
Or, wait, no he hasn't because no other country allows its people to freely own such scary looking, compact, fast firing, weapons, not even the country of origin of the Saiga.
So, Bob Ash of TROMIX, the number one name in saiga conversions, other than betting the platform has a future, you wanna put forth the behind the scene info, to us tin hatters, and ingorant opinioners, as to why, WE should be betting on the positive future of the Saiga right now?
I mean, it would be a good investment in future business to assure us as to why we should pack up our Saigas and ship them to TROMIX for a permanent conversion, wouldn't it?
To be clear, I am a true supporter of the 2nd Amendment, TRULY, yeah, I WANT TO BUY ANY WEAPON I WISH TO OWN, without ANY form of interference from the Government.
BUT, I am also SMART ENOUGH to realize that we as gun owners STILL EXIST in a poor policital climate, that could turn against gun ownership at any time.
Oh, they wont come and take them, Heller pretty much guaranteed at least that.
BUT, you still have "Reasonable restrictions" and the "Sporting Clause" hanging around to bust our NUTS for the conceivable future.
Do I think Tromix should not sell anything legal? NO, its well within their rights to sell any legal product, do I think Tromix has been selling products that on their face value endanger the Saiga Platform, YES, I do.
Frankly, I seen no real need for a twelve pound, eight sided, spiked door breaching, flash supressing, muzzle breaking, abdomination, of the type they sell.
But thats just me, and MY opinion, but, if that device is used, in part by the ATF to justify the demise of the whole platform, then, we can all decide how smart of a "Business Decision" it was, to create their line of products.
The first rule for a physician, is "to do know harm".
And, I think alot of folks have not considered whether their "Business Decisions" have done harm to the whole Saiga community at large.
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As a welder I detest JB Weld, as it just takes more time to prep for a proper weld.
However, if you slotted the back of the mag, and fit in a new metal tab, and epoxied it into the slot, and rebuilt the top angle with JB weld, you may be able to do a decent patch.
I prefer other epoxies to JB weld, PC7 for example, it has a nice long work time.
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Seeing that the rear tab is pretty much gone, yeah, I think you took off a bit too much.
I didn't think that you needed to take any off the rear? I never did with any of mine.
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5 rounds aren't enough for a little piggy?
MOUNT A BAYONET!!!!!
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"What I really think is scare mongers like you drive the price of the guns up. Sure they'll come back down, once the study is complete. But you'll most likely never see them sell for under $450.00 again, and that's being optimistic."
NOTE TO SELF: Contact my brother in law in charge at the ATF tomorrow morning, and tell him to leak to the press that the Ban has already been approved for all S-12's, and then capitalize by selling my one saiga 12, and then retiring on the profits.
Yeah right.
And guess what dipshit, when the first Saigas were selling for under 450, it was because NOBODY knew WTF they were, there were no aftermarket mags, let alone accessories, and nobody really WANTED THEM!
Then, damn near a decade later, after they have been transformed into complete, and successful weapons platform, with plenty of accessories, and a LIMITED SUPPLY, with STRONG DEMAND, you, note, YOU, find it heartbreaking that they will never be under 450 bucks anymore.
Well, jump on the "Wahh Wahhhhh Wagon" bud, because their ain't gonna be any more Colt Ar15's for 500 bucks, and no more Norinco AK double underfolders for 400 bucks, and no more cheap steel cored chinese 762 x 39 ammo for 60 bucks a thousand.
Yet, you come here, and offer nothing but a crap opinion, and a cheapskate offer for our guns.
The day the AWB sunsetted, the contents of my gunsafe were worth one hell of a lot less, and I stood up and CHEERED!
You miss the point, that at least I, and some others are making, and thats get what you can now, at a reasonable cost, because chances are, based on PRIOR FACTUAL ACTIONS BY THE ATF, the Saiga weapons system is a BUG under a MAGNIFYING GLASS with the ATF ready to stick a BIG PIN in it, and YES, you may end up with stuff you overpaid for, or you MAY end up with stuff that you can NO LONGER BUY.
But, at the very least, get your head out of your ass, and weigh the facts, and the potential outcome of this study/probably come something worse.
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But Duuuuuuude, their like awesoooooomely TACTICOOOOOOOOOOOOL.......
And, they are inversely proportional in size to the owners penis length.
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Sure, you offered 400 correct? If thats your opinion of their future value, I'll take yours for that price.
Cmon, if you feel the gun is going to be worthless, I'll honor your opinion.
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LOL @ you. You honestly don't think they won't ban these? When they are way more "destructive" in the eyes of the ATF than the sweeper and stryker?
You're either VERY ignorant or a troll.
Ever heard the phrase, "Put your money where your mouth is"? It's similar to, "Put up or shut up". Which is a derivative of, "Money talks and BS walks". I think you get where I'm going with this.
Sorry, I still don't get it? You want to pay up or not???
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"I say no one is "Banning" the current S-12.
Anyone want to bet?
Come on. One of you SCARETASTIC nimrods must feel strongly enough about your convictions to assign a dollar value.
ANYONE?!?!"
Sure, I assigned a dollar value way back, you just keep ignoring my asking price. Its simple, if they are banned, I estimate they will approximately double in value, once the frenzy settled down.
I see Striker 12's at about 1200 bucks, double what they retailed for.
You can have all of my stuff you want, at double the current value, so, since we have reports of NIB Saigas with retail prices of about 1000.00, I figure mine as it sits is worth about 2800.00.
Cash of course, I'd have to add up all the factory mags, lo cap and high cap, US made mags, drums etc, but, I figure all at double the retail value, probably pushing 6,000.00 or a bit more.
You got the cash smart ass????
OR better yet, go troll the BATF past rulings, concerning firearms of this type, and give us some factual evidence of what their past actions have been? Or at least some other data to support your insistence that nothing will happen.
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Nice summary Kliegl.
I love when I get to the point in a debate where the liberal asks the inevitable question..........
"SO, IF YOU CAN OWN A MACHINE GUN, YOU PROBABLY THINK YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO OWN ARTILLERY, OR AN ATOMIC BOMB?????" (Caps added, because by this point, after countering everyone of their liberal playbook arguments with fact, they ARE SHOUTING at me)
I answer them.
"Yes, technically, I should be able to."
Then, I go into how difficult it would be for an individual to acquire the components, and material for an atomic bomb, not to mention expense, and technical expertise to make it. Or, how the same factors apply to modern artillery, helicopters, jets, etc.
And, they usually walk away at this point, because they have no arguments left.
How do you control guns so that people don't get hurt? Or Killed?
You don't. Just like ultimately, you can't stop a car driver from drinking, or falling asleep, or intentionally driving into a crowd, or, for someone to pick up a rock, or a stick, and do harm on another.
You can attempt to do it, and when it fails, as any system does, then the cries come out for more control, more laws, on top of thousands that already are not working, and never will.
No one can regulate MORALITY, or STUPIDITY, the two primary factors in most matters of life and death, NO ONE CAN...
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Its good to see bridis and zombie slayer both are getting a good education at elementary schools that provide free internet and laptops.
But go ahead and feel free to come at me with some FACTS anytime you wish, till then, you open your mouth to speak, and only shit comes out..
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The minute you fire, or booger with a factory gun, you have killed its collector value, but don't trust me, go buy a NIB Polytech legend, and swap out the factory wood, for some US made plastic stuff, put a few hundred rounds through it, and Kryloflage it, then see what you get on resale.
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In researching some other stuff, I came across this from the ATF's pamphlet for NFA dealers and such, I don't know if it has been posted, but, pay attention to the bold, and substitute Saiga 12 for USAS 12, and you will get the point I have made for years.
26 U.S.C. § 5845(f)(2): DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE (Nonsporting shotgun having a bore of more
than one-half inch in diameter)
The USAS-12 shotgun has a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter and is not generally
recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. Therefore, it is classified as a destructive
device for purposes of the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53.
ATF Rul. 94-1
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has examined a firearm identified as the USAS-12
shotgun to determine whether it is a destructive device as that term is used in the National Firearms Act
(NFA), 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53.
The USAS-12 is a 12 gauge, gas-operated, autoloading semiautomatic shotgun which is chambered for
12 gauge 2 ¾-inch ammunition. It has an 18 ¼-inch barrel, is approximately 38 inches long, and weighs
12.4 pounds unloaded and approximately 15 pounds with a loaded magazine, depending on the capacity
of the magazine. The USAS-12 is equipped with a 12 round detachable box magazine, but a 28 round
detachable drum magazine is also available. The shotgun is approximately 11 inches deep with a box
magazine. There is an integral carrying handle on top of the receiver which houses a rifle –type aperture
rear and adjustable post-type front sight. The USAS-12 has a separate combat-style pistol grip located
on the bottom of the receiver, forward of the buttstock. An optional telescopic sight may be attached to
the carrying handle. The barrel is located below the operating mechanism in such fashion that the barrel
is in a straight line with the center of the buttstock.
Section 5845(f), Title 26 U.S.C., classifies certain weapons as “destructive devices” which are subject to
the registration and tax provisions of the NFA. Section 5845(f)(2) provides the following:
(f) Destructive Device – The term “destructive device” means* * *
(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to,
expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a
bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell the Secretary or his
delegate finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.
A “sporting purpose” test which is almost identical to that in section 5845(f)(2) appears in 18 U.S.C. §
925(d)(3). This provision of the Gun Control Act of 21968 (GCA) provides that the Secretary shall
authorize a firearm to be imported into the United States if the firearm is “generally recognized as
particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” With the exception of the “readily
adaptable” language, this provision is identical to the sporting shotgun exception to the destructive
device definition. The definition of “destructive device” in the GCA (18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(4)) is identical
to that in the NFA.
In determining whether shotguns with a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter are
“generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes” and thus are not destructive devices
under the NFA, we believe it is appropriate to use the same criteria used for evaluating shotguns under
the “sporting purposes” test of section 925(d)(3). Congress used virtually identical language in
describing the weapons subject to the two statutory schemes, and the language was added to the GCA
and the NFA at the same time.
In connection with the determination of importability, ATF determined that the USAS-12 shotgun was
not eligible for importation under the sporting purposes test in section 925(d)(3). In reaching this
determination, ATF evaluated the weight, size, bulk, designed magazine capacity, configuration, and
other characteristics of the USAS-12. It was determined that the weight of the USAS-12, 12.4 pounds,
made it much heavier than traditional 12 gauge sporting shotguns, which made it awkward to carry for
extended periods, as in hunting, and cumbersome to fire at multiple small moving targets, as in skeet and
trap shooting. The width of the USAS-12 with drum magazine, approximately 6 inches, and the depth
with box magazine, in excess of 11 inches, far exceed that of traditional sporting shotguns, which do not
exceed 3 inches in width and 4 inches in depth. The large size and bulk of the USAS-12 made it
extremely difficult to maneuver quickly enough to engage moving targets as is necessary in hunting,
skeet, and trap shooting. The detachable box magazine with 12 cartridge capacity and the detachable
drum magazine with 28 cartridge capacity were or a larger capacity than traditional repeating sporting
shotguns, which generally contain tubular magazines with a capacity of 3 – 5 cartridges. Additionally,
detachable magazines permit more rapid reloading than do tubular magazines. Finally, the combat-style
pistol grip, the barrel-to-buttstock configuration, the bayonet lug, and the overall appearance and general
shape of the weapon were radically different from traditional sporting shotguns and strikingly similar to
shotguns designed specifically for or modified for combat and law enforcement use.
Section 7805(
, title 26 U.S.C., provides that the Secretary may prescribe the extent, if any, to whichany ruling relating to the internal revenue laws shall be applied without retroactive effect. Accordingly,
all rulings issued under the Internal Revenue Code are applied retroactively unless they specifically
provide otherwise. Pursuant to section 7805(
, the Director, as the delegate of the Secretary, mayprescribe the extent to which any ruling will apply without retroactive effect.
Held: TheUSAS-12 is a shotgun with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter which is not
particularly suitable for sporting purposes. The weight, size, bulk, designed magazine capacity,
configuration, and other factors indicate that the USAS-12 is a semiautomatic version of a military type
assault shotgun. Accordingly, the USAS-12 is a destructive device as that term is used in 26 U.S.C. §
5845(f)(2). Pursuant to section 7805(
, this ruling is applied prospectively effective March 1, 1994,with respect to the making, transfer, and special (occupational) taxes imposed by the NFA. All other
provisions of the NFA apply retroactively effective March 1, 1994.
26 U.S.C. § 5845(f)(2): DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE (Non-sporting shotgun
Now, as IMPORTED, the Saiga does NOT meet the above criteria, but the minute you put a pistol grip on it, and insert a 12 round stick, or 20 round mag, you have a USAS 12, with two exceptions, a carry handle, and a bayonet lug, neither of which is going to be enough to save it from a non sporting declaration.
The ONLY hope, is that they find a sporting use.
And, a "Report" is only going to be used for two reasons, to do something, or to not do something, and when you look at the past record of the ATF, how many times have they found in favor of gun owners, and not in favor of the ban, registration or destruction of an item??????
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I waded in here with an open mind, but frankly, the whole Bazooka thing was completely uncalled for, and never should have been shown.
I mean, why not just put into the light, just what you need to do, to project a few ounces of "POWDER" a few hundred yards away?
Can you say ANTHRAX, or the scare of it, when your estes powered terror device lands in the middle of a stadiums playing field? How about a few dozen, or hundreds of people trampled, and maybe dead?
Seriously, I model rocketed for years, and the first rule is do no harm, don't point it at people, don't use explosives in it, etc, if the manufacturers of the engines knew they were going to be pointed at people, or equipment, on purpose, there is no way in hell they would approve of their use.
Add in the explosive warhead, and it goes quadruple.
And, just from a liability standpoint, making a man portable, rocket launcher, and selling it to the general public a freaking liability nightmare, how could it NOT be declared a destructive device, when a spud gun has already been hit with that designation if its used as a weapon?
Not mention, if it malfunctions and doesn't fly as intended, and someone gets hit.
A grand a pop, and 50 per rocket? You better be carrying about 10 million in insurance, IF, and thats a big IF, any insurance vendor would cover rocket newbies, making half assed projectiles and firing mechanisms.
The ATF totally tightened up what you can buy now, after 911, in the hobby rocket market, and it will only take one bad press, public nightmare event, to go further.
It was plain and simple, irresponsible television, at best.
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I don't know how fantastic of an opportunity it is.
No high cap mags being imported, so you have to go the route of ordering from Europe, and hoping you get them, if you can, and frankly, the whole idea of changing to a new set of magazines when I am invested in the standard ones seems stupid.
IF it had a standard magwell, MAYBE, as it is, I have no interest.
BTW, 12 seconds to google search and find the needed link, you can't close Pandora's box once its been opened.
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ROFL that is too funny, love this forum
Yeah, at least I admit up front I can be an asshole, others just gotta prove it, again, and again, and again.
But, it just goes to show you, how much some people detest others being successful, or famous, or both.
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I wanna know who gets 200 bucks to silver solder a job like that?
Seriously, one low temp silver solder "Kit" has lasted me 10 or more years, and you could do DOZENS of jobs like that, about a buck each in solder/flux material cost.
You could easily heat sink the rest of the barrel down lower, with a good tightly wrapped damp rag, and do the entire job in less than 10 minutes.
If I could get 25 bucks per gun, I would be a happy welder.
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Can you say 7N6 for in it?
I just happen to have a few thousand set aside for just THAT beast.
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What remodel said, but ad this.
If the chamber is cut rough, the wrinkling of the steel case after firing, makes extraction even worse, because it forms out into an even rougher surface that on a smooth chamber, magnifying the drag on extraction.
Perhaps some very fine polishing compound to the chamber?
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IF you are really worried, get a can of the temporary heat sink schmuck you pack around the weld site, and use it as well.
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"i bought my AR15 from a LEO he even gave me 3 mags and 4 20 round boxes of .223 lol"
Probably came from the evidence room...I hear its a helluva profit maker.
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Jeff Knox opinion piece on this topic.
Sounds like he has been reading my posts.....
ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!
in Saiga-12
Posted
You take it the wrong way, Bob Ash from Tromix, I LOVE the evil features, I just don't think the time is right now, or ever has been to transform a "Sporting" weapon, into an "evil" weapons platform that was, and is one "Decision" away from being either stopped from importation, and/or regulated if it goes the way of the USAS 12, or more secondarily, the Street Sweeper, Striker 12 type of shotguns.
I guess it was living through that whole 10 plus year, "Assault Weapons" ban thingy, as well as the prior USAS/Striker bans, that make be a bit cautious about where the future of our collective gun rights was, and is heading, given the wrong actions by a few individuals, coupled with the right political anti gun climate.
I mean, Bob Ash from Tromix, you probably realize that if it wasn't for the Republican minority, managing to get a "Sunset" provision put into the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, the whole Saiga market that exists now, NEVER would have come to pass? Take away the high caps, and nothing else, and you seriously crimp the whole value of the Saiga system.
All that being said, short of a permanent conversion, I have jumped in and embraced whats happened in the Saiga market, mags, drums, accessories etc, hell YEAH, I love the stuff, and own as much as I can afford,(with the exception of the "BLING"), probably too much in fact, but, it hasn't been with a bit of guilt on my own part, because as the guns themselves, and the evil accessories, have become more affordable, and available, its opened up the whole shebang to alot more people, hence, the bad attention it now has from the ATF.
The only good thing about this, after the study, and the ATF's actions, or non actions, especially under a terribly anti gun presidency, is, that we all will have a damn good idea about where the future of mag fed, semi auto shotgun systems, is going to go. If the Saiga falls, we will probably never see a replacement, until its manufactured domestically, and then, only if its not neutered into a non pistol grip, locap version that I am sure the ATF wants to give us.
AS per Tromix opening my eyes up to the Saiga, not the case, having been a gun fiend from the time I was a small child, the Saiga had caught my eye early on, I want to say the Shotgun News, but it may have been a trade circular for the FFL's, I'm not sure which, and I actually saw the first "Live" one at a Dunhams, of all places.
And, thank you for being good capitalists, making money and paying taxes, no matter what turns out, if somebody didn't push the envelope, we wouldn't get anywhere, of course, we may lose it all, but, it has been, and still is fun, I just hope we get to have some more.
IF it doesn't turn out that way, I'll be the first to say "I told you so", and if it does turn out for the good, I will gladly admit I was wrong, as I have said early on.
Bridis you quote:
Off to watch Sons of Guns.
You are a fucking tool, do you really think if you suck enough industry dick they are going to send you gift cards or what??