frick
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Posts posted by frick
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"Your tone never offended me, it was your superiority complex"
Read my sig lines if you need further clarification... Besides if you are right, its not a complex.
And, before you go bashing somebody next time, remember it goes against the rules of etiquette if you call them an "A$hole" in your initial personal attack.(Don't trust me, email Miss Manners)
I for one prefer being called a good old fashioned "Asshole", but not on the first date, you gotta be a gentlemen for at least the first two, then I don't mind if you call me one.
As for life, enjoy whats left of yours, I wouldn't make a habit of taking that tone with people older than you in real life, because the older you get, the less time starts to matter to you, especially as far as sentencing guidelines go.....
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"l would like to point out that you still havent owned up to, or explained the fact that you say "I can't wait to see you guys facing registration, destruction, or burial of your permanently converted guns." and still consider yourself a god in the saiga community"
Well, in a way, I kind of can't wait, because thats exactly what I have said all along, keep your options open, failing to do so, some may face those exact same consequences I saw people go through with the registration of the Striker12/StreetSweepers, some places do not allow posession of class three items, so cut it up, or sell it, some won't register them, and some will, depending on how much you fear Uncle Salty coming to get them, vs. being illegal and being able to have them, if needed.
IF you don't keep your own options open, you sir, are as stupid as anyone else who doesn't have the foresight to see ahead, and the memory to see what happened in the past, and how it shapes the future in front of you.
AS for my tone, it was exactly as respectful as your post asking me the questions I answered, so what did you expect?
Bridis, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about, I have never put forth registration will make anything less valuable if registered, it will, in fact make it worth more, offering to buy my guns at a ridiculous price is just plain stupid, however, I do know a few predatory types, who were out there offering people nothing for their Streetsweepers in the last few weeks before they had to be registered, only because the owners were afraid of losing them to the BATF for some reason, or because they didn't want their name on the list.
IF thats what you want, go for it, smells of scumbag-ism to me though.
I also recall a moderator requesting that this thread stay on track. Hopefully you've said your piece and fell comfortable enough to move on.
So do I, but I tend not to like letting PERSONAL attacks go without a response.
As for the mods, why don't you split this thread and put it in the private place, so we go at this with gloves off?
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Ok Newb, I'll give you a reply, though by rights, you haven't been here long enough to deserve one.
Getting satisfaction at the fact that responsible gun owners are losing the ability to convert their guns as they see fit SICKENS me worse than this study.
Oh, I have no satisfaction is seeing anyone lose the right to anything that they wish, grow your weed, make machine guns, don't hurt anybody else, and I don't care what you do, but DON'T include in that list, doing something stupid, that brings attention to the gun community in a bad light, or worse, hurts ALL of us gun owners.
You are one smug A$hole to to be touting that "l told you so" attitude when our liberties are on the verge of being abused AGAIN by the ATF.
And this is news? Seems I have lived through multiple bans, machine gun, chinese ammo,chinese guns, all assault weapons, two sets of DD regulations, USAS12, and the SS/Striker12, been a lifelong gun owner and lifetime NRA member, own more guns than you will probably ever own, and as a dealer, have put many guys into guns at my cost JUST to get people into the shooting hobbies.
Yeah Newb, I have been around long enough to have learned a bit, and, have a bit of "Smugness" as you call it, confidence in my words is what I see it as.
Why do you think your opinion is so God Damned important, as to be invigorated when the shit is hitting the fan for our FELLOW gun owners?
Are you a lifetime NRA member? If not, don't even say one word more to me about why my opinion is so important, and list your qualification on why yours is any better. Till then, screw you and your opinions.
Tell me what makes you better than the rest of the people on here? And better than anyone who had their guns converted as they saw fit, and within compliance of the law at the time?
It goes back a few years, so I can't fault you on not knowing, but, from the beginning, there was an ongoing argument here about "Converting" saigas, in terms of legality, I have opined that when any type of folding stock/pistol grip is put on a Saiga, it is no longer "Sporting" and in terms of the law, only kosher if done to 922R regs., I also at the time warned that conversions should be easily made retro, or sporting again, as any conversion, permanent, or bolt on, could draw attention from the ATF in the future, just as had happened to the USAS12/SS/Striker12, some poo pood that, arguing that time would never come, then, the high caps rolled out, the drums rolled out, and, yes, the unwanted attention, is now upon us from the ATF.
Did you notice the pistol grip Saiga, and drum in the ATF report??????????
Are you saying it is the fault of the people who modified their guns to their preference that the ATF is hot on our heels, and thus that you are an innocent lamb in regards to possible ATF policy changes?
IN part, yes they are responsible, so are the drum manufacturers, so am I for buying conversion stocks, and mags, drums, and doing my part to make the whole system functional, I didn't buy that much, but, yes anyone in the community that has made this system popular, is at some fault, because it all adds up to make this put the Saiga shotguns, on the radar of the ATF.
But, there are some who do bear a heavier responsibility, in giving the community bad PR, making the saiga appear to be a trivial lead tossing death machine, or even things as small as their board handles, Zombie what? I know zombie shooting is a recognized sport and all, but, cmon, grow the fuck up already, and act like an adult.
Or that you are just smarter than everyone? If not, just tell me WTF you meant by the above statement,
Smarter, probably more than some, of course, not as smart as others. I advised that people consider the fact that the Saiga could face registration, and to keep the gun in a state, that it could be made sporting if needed, and that was as easy, as retaining the original parts, and not permanently welding up the two pin holes left after a trigger group conversion, again, some said that day where you needed to do that would never occur, and, it appears that the day where it will be necessary, has come closer.
and how you feel it was justified.
That day will come, when you have people scrambling for the original stocks, original FCG's, and for someone to redrill the sporting configuration FCG holes, and when it happens, they are gonna pay, and alot more than what those "Useless" parts sold for, when they did their permanent conversions.
Or even better, when the day came to register every "Bad" saiga, there would be NONE to go on the list, and that would REALLY piss the ATF off.
Pandora's box HAS been opened spud, and its never going to close, the best we can do now is to present the Saiga shotgun system in as good a light as possible, to all write nice letters to the BATF telling them how our saigas have saved modern society from the downfall that will occur if its restricted, etc.
Do I hope that the report, and inevitable conclusions then rulings are bad, HELL NO, I hope they clarify forever that a Saiga thats permanently converted is fine, that we can all buy Striker12's and USAS12's, and machine guns, all of them.
Do I expect that to happen? No, what I expect is registration of non sporting Saiga's, and some way to ban, or make illegal the use of a high cap, or drum, in any Saiga shotgun, or at least the attempt to get both of the above.
Hey, If they end up tossing the whole sporting regs, from the GCA of 68, I'll join you in dancing in the streets, and I'll toss my saiga factory stock on the bonfire, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong, till then, don't hold your breath.
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I would venture that if you polled a thousand people, 80% would have no idea what a 3 gun competition is, and 15% would know that its a shooting sport, and 5% would actually know what it was.
Its not the competition, its how the gun looks during the competition, with high cap mags, being a key word right now, showing how fast you can change them, isn't going to impress more people, than its going to scare.
And seriously, the 20 rounder, its like the 55 to 100 round AK stick mags, that look like an Uber Chaut Chaut magazine, they both scream "LOOK AT ME, I AM NOT OWNED BY SANE PEOPLE"
This is America, I will die for your right to own 20 round Saiga mags, and 100 round AK stick mags, thats what makes us a free country.
But, wars are not won on the ground in this country anymore, they are won on the airwaves, cable TV, and the internet, and the wars end when "Public Perception" sways to the side getting or giving the best press against the other side.
You talk about the "Fudds" that have a Saiga in their safe, and how mad they are gonna get if their one "bad" weapon is banned?
They are middle of the road "Moderates", and nothing short of life and limb is going to get them off their asses to get angry enough to do anything, and probably a large percentage of them would willingly turn in the Saiga, to feel safe about keeping their "Hunting" guns, that grandpa used to use, in the good ol' days, when people still hunted.
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"As of today you can send comments on the study to shotgunstudy@atf.gov. Read the study and make some thoughtfull comments, but please don't rant. I just sent my first one and plan to send more. "
IF, you gotta rant, do it here, and not to them, as they are sure to publicly read every "Bubba" post as those being most representative of gun owners, you can forget about the thousands of good letters, it they get one bad one.
And that includes the Molon Labe shit, the "we need them to overthrow the guvmint" stuff, and anything in a vein like that.
This is going to be a battle fought publicly, don't fuck it up for all involved, by showing the extreme end of the spectrum, right when they want everybody to see it.
Right now, all of us have more in common with the nutzo/scumbag congressional shooter in Arizona, than we do with a large portion of the US public, we legally own guns, just as he did.
Let them perceive, NOTE, PERCEIVE that we are also mentally unstable, or at least, we appear that way, and you are doing double damage in the eyes of a large part of the people in this country.
Never let a great tragedy go to waste, thats their words, don't help prove the point.
BTW R & R, that above utube vid would look great being shown at the ATF after study Report being shown to congress, especially love the use of "Problem Child" along with completely insane looking 20 round donkey dick mags fired as fast as you can pull the trigger.
It really shows to the general public exactly how "Sporting" the Saiga is.
Seriously, I find self censorship, and the NEED to do it, fucking reprehensible, but you, we, all of us, better start thinking about what face we want to put on the SAIGA community right now.
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"PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE."
I just don't think he can read.
IF they become DD's they aren't going to be taken away, they are going to be registered, and future production will be illegal.
They took a worthless(IMHO)shotgun system, the Streetsweeper/Striker12, and made a 400 dollar shotgun a 1200 dollar shotgun, only because of scarcity.
For those not familiar, the above guns had triggers that were beyond terrible, and they had a propensity to crack the frame/receiver, if used with magnum ammo.
In other words, crap from the beginning.
Unlike the USAS 12, which was one hell of an innovative system, much like the Saiga.
The trade off is that you get a weapon thats going to be worth more, that can't be easily resold.
I'll sell you my 12ga Saiga, with its "Fricked" up conversion, which, should be worth MORE, because of its ease of becoming "Sporting" again.
Price adjusted for DD inflation.
3 grand, and you can bury it where you wish, as of course, DD means, Uncle Salty know where you, and your gun, be.
And, I'll toss in an MD-20 drum if you take it in the next 10 minutes....CALL NOW 1 800 MY PUPPY.
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"The reason they don't consider IPSC a sport is because if they did, it would nullify the entire law."
Not just nullify the law, but completely make the "Sporting" component of the 1968 GCA moot.
Its only use foreseen was to keep cheap foreign pistols out, and then it was turned against more gun owners by using the "Non Sporting" clause to classify items completely legal, and exempt from other legislation, as DD's and make them basically impossible for people to get.
As long as the Director of the BATF can classify any firearm as non sporting, without judicial or congressional oversight, any firearm is able to be removed from general ownership.
The report is good in part, because it notes this, and recognizes that even if they come up with a more lenient interpretation, they ATF does not have to abide by it, if the director so chooses.
THAT is what our congressman need to see, that we have a potential dictator, deciding on his whim, what we as Americans, can, or cannot own.
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"Seriously, you're telling people to stop taking video of shooting guns fast. And you think they're going to "ruin it for the rest of us" by doing so?"
That was my thought the first time I went to a gun show, and they were turning away people with camo clothing on, unless they were active duty military.
"By that logic you might as well blame AGP for making 10 round mags or Mike Davidson for making 20 round drums. Oh wait, some people started saying that crap back when AGP first announced it was going to make them. Ditto for MD. I have no doubt that alot of ethical infants still believe such."
Unfortunately, that logic is correct, Pandora's box cannot be unopened.
And, its not the first time, Olympic Arms chambering an AR pistol in 7.62 x 39 made all the steel core AK ammo "Armor Piercing" and billions of rounds of cheap ammo, was no longer importable, ever again.
And, I am not agreeing with the logic, however, the fact is, MD's drum, is prominently featured in that report, for SOME reason.
"Newsflash: Your fellow gun owners aren't trying to infringe upon your rights. The government is. I suggest we all quit falling for the divide and conquer crap and focus our energies on writing our congressman and friendly media sources. "
I agree, and as distasteful as I found it, I had to agree with the gun shows ban on Camo, you don't NEED reporters standing around, with spoon fed "Bubba gun nuts" easily put on camera.
The system IS what it IS, either we work within it, or feed the system what it needs to strangle us.
There will come a time of reckoning, and it may be brought on by the Chinese calling in all their debt, or from within, I don't know which will happen first, but, just as the GCA of 68 was put in place to keep uppity niggers unarmed and in their place(Thats the thoughts of the Democratic Senators who devised it), the further attacks have been to keep the "Militias"(Clinton Administration), and now, recently declared "Individual Rights" by Heller, in theirs.
The next level of attacks are going to be like this.
1) Keep any new guns out of the country, further regulate them to death within.
2) Push the "Reasonable Regulation" Of all firearms to new levels, IE, DC retaining any semi auto pistol, with a magazine a "Machine Gun", FFL reporting requirement, IE, 2 assault rifle per week reports(Already asked for by the ATF in 4 border states), 1000 foot safe distance laws for elected officials, etc.
3) Limit domestic production, by stifling innovation at every level, IE, constantly ruling machine guns that aren't, as, that IE, Akins Accelarator, and by making now legal items, not, IE, Shotgun drums, or, through regulation by other agencys, IE, Infrared lasers are technically legal, however, the FDA prevents them from being sold in the US because they may cause eye damage.
Heller did not end the war against firearm ownership, it only moved it in a less blatant direction.
Youze all better thank your asses that "W" was able to put the critical 5th vote on the court, because without it, Feinstein would have called them all in, if Heller was not found to be an individual right.
And that is the truth.
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1) The value of SS's, Strikers, etc, has not risen appreciably after becoming DD's, that said, the worst thing is registration, if thats the case, and the inherent problems with future transfer. So value shouldn't be an issue, future availability is, and that WILL drive prices up, not down.
Whats to bet on.
2 and 3, far less likely, I'm sure you could find somewhere in Vegas if you feel like pursuing it.
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The us made versions of the SS and Striker 12 were declared DD's regardless of whether they were imported or not. But the first step was denying importation of the design.
There is also mention of weapons based upon machine guns, in regards to AW's. Its on page 4.
Technically the Saiga is derived from the AK, take it from there.
Also, bayo lugs on the imported 1897's are going to be gone.
Edit after 5th reading.
Slow absorbtion with age, but heres what I glean.
1)Past history justifying all aspects of "Sporting" restrictions.
2)Why AW's were what they are, and why they shouldn't be imported.
3)A new list of items(10) that make guns non sporting.
4)Round capacity, exhibit 2, showing state laws that prevent use of 5 rounds or more in a hunting gun.
5)Whole buncha a pics that make a gun bad, lights, mounts, foregrips, and drum mags specifically featuring the SAIGA.
Conclusion?
Guns are bad.
Guns that look bad are bad.
Guns that look like bad military guns are bad.
Guns that look like bad military guns, with big military magazines are bad.
Saigas are guns that look like bad military guns, with big military magazines, and no matter how sporting they are when they come in, they are still bad.
My apologies to Mr. Mackey, I already know Drugs are Bad, Mmmmkay.
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"There's no evidence of anything approaching this in the study. "
Nope, sure isnt.
And there was no instant registration of the StreetSweeper or Striker 12s after the import ban on the USAS12.
IF the case can be made for non importation, as was done first to all of those above guns, then the case to declare them a DD is a much easier step, as WAS done above with all three of the guns eventually.
The camels nose under the tent...typical anti strategy.
And, a good step towards a complete ban on high cap mags altogether, as they clearly mention the previous study focused only on rifles and how bad high caps were with them.
As I read it, for the third time.
They are basically repeating the import rules as they stand now, why such a dedicated report just to reiterate what we already know?
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I have just read the entire thing again, and I have a 2nd take.
Start on page 10 and closely read 4)in reference to magazines.
They make a particular point of building a case that high cap mags have no hunting purpose, no sporting purpose, and of no use, except for Po PO and the Military.
This may be all about the end to domestic production of high cap mags for non sporting shotguns.
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Sporting is sporting, only if there are no options to make it non sporting after importation, how much of a leap is needed if one action, IE, insertion of a mag, makes said sporting shotgun a no no.
A pistol grip Saiga, with a 20 round drum is the same gun as a USAS 12, why they haven't been declared a DD by now, is beyond me, the proliferation of even more evil items, such as high cap drums ARE going to add to the cry to do so, why do think it was so prominently featured in the report.
And, this is all about timing.
Shooting in AR, high cap mag, brain dead politician(from the shooting, and those not shot included as well), and there is going to be a sacrificial lamb, in this case, its going to be evil imported shotguns.
Unlike most BATF reports, which end with, "So, a shoestring IS a machinegun", and are less than a page, this one surprised me at how in depth it went into the history of how and why, cheap guns, and scary guns, have no sporting use.
Well chronicled for a reason?
Either they are getting a whole lot more thorough, or they are taking the time to build a case to make a whole buncha stuff non sporting.
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You folks better start thinking like bureaucratic Nazis.
Because if the writing on the wall for a ban on convertable Saigas isn't in there, I don't know what else is.
Hell, In my reading of this, insertion of a 6 round magazine makes the shotgun non sporting, let alone every other US made product intended for a Saiga, front grips with rail mounts, light mounts, pistol grips, altered parts for the fire control group, etc.
Hence, a Saiga imported that can no longer accept US made magazines, or factory High Caps, as in the Saiga Rifles that have no feed ramp built in, and require a special low cap mags, or worse, no mags at all, if they are too easily unsporterized.
I remember when some of you fuckers got on my ass for "Fricked" up conversions, that do not move the trigger group, and my MAIN response was that WHEN they made non sporting Saigas illegal, or registerable, ten minutes, and a 5 round mag and I was compliant.
That TIME is going to COME, and I can't wait to see you guys facing registration, destruction, or burial of your permanently converted guns. I hope you kept your original parts, and didn't weld up the pin holes.
If you haven't figured it out yet, the BATF is only there to seperate YOU from YOUR GUNS, using "Reasonable" gun control laws, and never, NEVER, EVER there to expand the horizons of guns available to people that aren't SOLDIERS or COPS!
Welcome to the world of second class citizens, too stupid to take care of themselves, or to own things that they deem as too dangerous.
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Thats disgusting.....I mean the fact that we can't see if you hit anything in the video's.....
Anyone else notice some rounds had huge fireballs, others almost nothing?
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Noted on their site, they also have a modified BHO kit, to work with the above crook, so, I don't know for sure if either part is standalone.
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Interesting link Caged, I basically tear the shepherds crook out of my AK's and replace them with plates when I swap FCG's during MAK conversions, or when I have to work on one.
The crook is just TOO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE ASS, its worth the $$$ to go to these, I noticed the add didn't mention BHO clearance, is that just assumed?
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3" is not that big of concern for me. We don't have many zombies in Western PA, they have all left for warmer, non union states, with better brain eating prospects, so, 2 3/4" shells with reduced pellet loads should be more than fine.
On a 2nd note, I have tried to keep my reviews "BASH FREE", and on topic, as to what observations, and characteristics whatever it is, just that.
Not saying one product is better than the other, or, that one product is best for all, no one, or any one for that matter.
Use this if it helps, print it and wipe your ass with it if it doesn't, it is, what it is....
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If you aren't getting full penetration with your MIG, you need more heat, and copper makes a far better backer than aluminum, you wont end up with "AlumaSteel" gunk on the back of the weld, though AL is usable.
Tig is superior for filling, but, a longer weld time, more heat poured into the area, possibly softening the receiver more.
Enough heat with the MIG, a quick "SPUT" of a weld, and you are done, in less than half a second, grinding wise, are you using a mini grinder? Even a dremel? A radial flap wheel should buff that tiny spot clean in about 10 seconds, even on a small mini grinder.
I am considering a full conversion, and I really think I am going to leave the original FCG holes intact, and plugged, rather than welding them up. Why? Because in a relatively small amount of time, you could easily return it to a sporting configuration.
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Too shitty out to test one yet, but.....
1) Snapped in without fitting, even a bit loose compared to an MD 20.
2) Size. Plain and simple a quarter the size of the MD20, comes down to about the center point of the 20 round drum in depth from the bottom of the gun.
3) Havent shot it yet, but, if it functions, there is no way, I would consider the bigger 20, any 20 round drum BTW, superior to this, except in shear firepower. The immense size of the 20 rounders is just too much, too unwieldy, especially, if you had to use it in a tight environment, especially a vehicle.
4) Compared to even 8 round factory mags, this thing is small, let alone the US 10 and especially 12 round stick mags.
Got them for 66 bucks each, with shipping, not as dollar savvy as an MD per round, but, gotta weigh the usability factor, and I like the metal insert in the front hook/tab where it fits in the receiver. Seems like a simple fix, for a potential problem with any non metal reinforced mag.
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Sigh, just thinking of walking out of Dans Guns and Ammo, with one on each finger, used Bulgys, with a little finish wear for 90 bucks each. Could have bought a factory arsenal shipping container with 50, brand new with spare mag, holster, and cleaning rod for 5000 bucks.
If I only had more money.....
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It was in a 45 holster, more than likely to conceal the fact it was a capture weapon.
It was widely known to grunts, that officers of higher rank, would appropriate non issue weapons, or else.
Lugers were especially prized, as were P38's compared to lots of other weapons that officers bought to use on their own dime during the war, for every Luger, you see three P38's and whole bunch of other 32's, etc. that came back in greater numbers, because nobody found them as desireable.
Also, don't forget a lot of guns came back post war, as the US kept soldiers in Germany there for years.
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Emailed Keltec, trying to ship out about 100 of these per week, my distribs claim they are "Alotted" to certain salesmen, and never see the light of day to everybody else.
IOW, know someone at the distributors level, and you get to fuck people out of a bunch of money while the goodtimes last.
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I like investment purposes as well, as it gives some meat to a denial, IE, his decision is going to threaten me financially.
However, we had a case to go the PA supremes, and ultimately they ruled that no Sheriff, must sign anything pertaining to the guys asking for clearance to get a few MG's, as he was worried about liability for himself.
In other words, there is no legal compulsion for them to sign, if they don't want to.
ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!
in Saiga-12
Posted
"I'm late on this, but what R and R targets is doing is EXACTLY what we need. I'm getting to be an old fart, but back in the day I was heavy into tourney paintball and everyone thought the game was a bunch of para mil types with guns playing war games. In conjunction with my teams sponsors we helped bring it out of the woods into main stream by leaving the camo behind and switching to bright clothing , getting our guns done up in bright anodized colors, and changing things from a woods game to a field game on Hyperball/Speedball fields where it could be watched by spectators. R and R and a lot of 3 gun shooters are in effect, doing the same. They are NOT in camo, they use BRIGHT flashy guns, and if you could do things to make the shoots more spectator friendly and get the events covered in the media it could help change the perception of shooting sports. While it's not an end all, fix all I think it is a step in the right dirrection to countering some attempts on our rights as gun owners and if nothing else, may grow the sport of competitive shooting."
Good thoughts, we went through the same thing, people in the town next to the woods where we played, thought we were "THE MILITIA" out training, at least that was the rumor going around, I just started a counter rumor that we were "Cuban Exiles" who were training to go back to Cuba and fight Castro, then they pretty much thought we were OK. And like you, eventually the wooded places closed, and it went to the courses you mentioned, and even inside, under black lights.
With only one exception that I know of, nobody ever died from playing with a paintball gun though, and thats a tough sell, I mean, if the guy in AZ had painted GG, instead of using a glock, I don't think Chuck Shumer would be focusing on a high cap mag ban today.
Seriously, most people that fear guns, fear shotguns the most, because of the enormous amount of damage that can be done with ONE shot, let alone 20, when I showed my Saiga, with its "Fricked up" conversion, and an MD20 drum inserted in it to friends, who ARE gun owners, the most common response was, "What the hell are you going to do with that?", and these are gun friendly people.
Making it seem sporting is just going to be one hell of a challenge, impossible? I dunno, but damn its going to be hard, especially to the unwashed, non gun owning, masses.