JohnInNH
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Posts posted by JohnInNH
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Yeah I may go surefire. I can get 8 tens and and md20 for 385 shipped. Not bad. Same as CSS but I can get it this week.
Whats everyone's opnion on the AGP vs the Surefire's ability on holding the shells within the mag better. As the Surefire doesnt have any metal to bite into the brass with, wouldnt the shells come out WAY easier?
The SureFire holds the top round in better than the AGP mags do. If you take each mag and put in 5 rounds each and then flip the tip of the round up, the AGP will lift up very easily. The SureFire mags, not as easy..
I found the AGP's would loose a round easily when pulling them from my range bag and the round pop out then roll of the bench. That lead me to compair them to Surefire, OEM mags and the MD-20 Drum. That's when I discovered the AGPs were lacking in that one aspect. (the rest is just fine)
So I took the metal clip from my MD-20 drum and noticed it had longer lips on it. So I ordered extras and fit them (it takes some filing) onto the AGP mags. Now with the MD-20 metal clips the first round is held in much better.
I like the body of the AGP but for me.. I like the better retention of the SureFire and MD-20 drum.. SOooooooo I reworked all the AGP mags I had. Now they are BETTER then new.
I hope AGP changes the design to replicate the OEM mag so the top round position and clips match exactly the OEM design. OEM has much better round retention. OEM mags need no improvement other than availability, cost, and round count. They feed flawlessly so don't try to improve it. They are the improvement LOL
A few changes to the AGP and they would be as good as the factory mags. See the AGP mag thread for pics of my clips.
I like the body shape of the AGP mags. I like the base design, and the lack of the ribs. They are very close to OEM. Just the clips have the "lip to shell contact" area incorrect.
It's 2 things. 1) The clip lips are a little shorter, and 2) the back of the mag body pushes the top round a little farther forward than OEM (this I believe was done to "help" with feeding.) Combine the 2 and you have the poor top round retention issue.
One evening with a file and a high speed rotary drill/grinder and you can rework your AGP mags with Mikes metal clips. OEM clips would work better but where can you get those?..
Mikes are slightly thicker and that causes a slight fitment issue, but they work a lot better than the AGP clips do. With the reworked metal clips you can have the best of both.
I have not had any problems with the surefire mags, other than not being a fan of the ribs. .. I thought the plastic lips would quickly be a problem. But so far not... Who knows how they will hold up over time. High capacity mags being in jeopardy I want to make sure the ones I have LAST.
My vote... REWORKED AGP mags. (well, maybe until the MD double stack mags come out!)
Some people don't care and find the loose top round retention to not be an issue. I don't like dropping live ammo on the ground so I fixed mine. I did save the AGP spring clips incase I felt the need to change them back. So far, I have no need to change back and best of all.... no more rounds flipping out. :-)
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not really psl............we can like our gun stuff a lot..... it's ok to do so.
its just sad that it was only 3" .
yeah we know, thanks.
I think the pictures came out well..Did the .gov take them or use HIS pictures ... makes ya wonder. LOL
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Supposedly the clear surefire mags have taken into account the raw material and they used a special plastic that is allegedly as good or BETTER than the plastic they use in the black mags.
I have a clear surefire mag and so for it has worked as well as the black surefire mags. The top round retention is a LOT better than the retention I get from the stock AGP mags.
I took off the AGP metal clips and replaced them with reworked MD-20 drum clips. They now have about 50% more retention (lift up on the nose of the shotgun shell)
On an AGP and it will lift up VERY easily, the Surefire takes about 200% more pressure to lift up, and the MD-20 drum takes even more pressure to lift up.
I like everything about the AGP mags except the problem with the top round flipping out easily while handling them. This could easily be fixed by AGP.
My *reworked* AGP mags are my #1 mag choice following the factory 5 rounder. With the MD-20 spring I don't have the top round flipping out anymore. They also feed as well as the stock AGP and OEM mags. It did not harm, only helped the already good AGP mags but putting on the re-worked MD-20 mag clips.
(I wish I had the 8 round OEM mags!)
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look at the back side of the puck and see if you can see any signs of mushrooming. see if the gogun USA letters are pressed in any. if they are thats probably why it wont go back in. the end that goes in first is probably mushroomed out a couple thousandths, just enough to keep it from going back in. this would explain having to beat it out. of course E-tac will claim that you mushroomed it by beating it out because apparently its not possible for these twister pucks to mushroom!
That can be the only conclusion. I even tried lightly tapping it back in because forget trying to put it back in by hand. I don't abuse my weapons other than how they should be and I know I haven't done anything to cause by user error. None the less the stock one goes right back into place so I believe something is faulty with my puck. Do they use an inferior metal or something? I don't want to start internet rumors about a company because I know how annoying that can get. However something isn't right. Has this happened to other people?
I had the same problem with the stock Twister puck. I did not have it in my gun very long and discovered it was close to impossible to remove.. It had dropped in OK but after 3 trips to the range it changed and became difficult to get out. Luckily I was able to pound it out with a wood dowel and remove it before it did any more damage.
I have pics posted in the puck thread. I sent it to KA and they very kindly sent me a FREE replacement .. The KA works a LOT better.. is better made and has not "changed" it is still easy to remove.
It is also not damaging my gas tube. You could see where the tips of the twister were causing wear on the ID of the gas tube. Go with a stock or with a KA puck.. I think KA is coming out with an new design.. Regardless.. if you want a US made puck you can send your deformed Twister to KA and they will ship you a free one of theirs!
I have no opinion on the twister puck co. All I know is their puck did not help my shotgun, it did make it need to get cleaned MORE not less (the cutouts fill with lead and plastic), and started to damage the Gas Tube.
The KA seems to have a slight more umph than stock. It comes out OK. The KA is as good or better than stock puck, and I would not recommend the Twister puck to anyone.
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Another thing. HOW ABOUT TAKE YOUR DRUM/MAG DUMP & BUMPFIRE VIDEOS DOWN OFF YOUTUBE!
That right there is the most intelligent sentence in this thread.
All you self proclaimed bad-asses that put those stupid videos on youtube are doing more harm then you can imagine. If you think that the government doesn't view those videos, your sadly mistaken.
Grow up, quit thinking your some kind of mercenary soldier of fortune, and quit placing those videos on public web sites.
If you want a shotgun or a rifle to remain classified as sporting purposes, then treat it as a sporting gun while in the public eye. If you want them declared as a destructive devise, then keep doing what you're doing. Ruin it for the rest of us.
I don't care how you use your shotgun or rifle in the privacy of your backyard or at the range. Just don't broadcast it to the world. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
Said by a person with an avatar that has "Run you will only get tired" LOL... with cross hair (read political PC crap about that) and evil tactical "sniper rifle" with: Tactical military non sporting bi-pod, flashider, and hi-powered sniper scope
Tactical "sniper" matches are not a "sporting purpose" either.. They have talked about banning "sniper rifles" too.
Just saying... We all have to watch our 6. What we think is cool or funny may be ammo for the Anti's and the .gov
Even at my local range trying to shoot clays with a SAIGA is not allowed (it's black and uses a mag)
Now if it had a vent rib and shiny WOOD furniture MAYBE they might let you shoot it.
Just busting your chops.. See my sig line.
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MD-20 Drum is BATF&E Famous: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
See last pages..
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I am waiting on the double stack mags. I HOPE the RIO slugs and buck with the roll crimp fit. The AGP 10 rounds are nice but a tad long.
I have a MD-20 which runs fine.. But it is BIG and really is for "play" I would consider a compact double stack THE answer.
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You shouldn't have more power on 3 than 4. The 4 setting is significantly more gas, about twice as much.
As far as the reliabilty kit from Carolina. It was originally with a gunfixer. They must of ran out of stock and subbed it with the V-Plug until they restocked. Carolina has the gunfixer made and likely has a bigger profit margin selling it intead of the V-Plug. That's what I thought. The Twister sure did not help me.
It definately isn't because it works better than the V-Plug. Also we are getting ready to release a plug that increases the cycling power multiply time more than the KA piston. Thanks for the info.. It will be a good bit cheaper as well and come with our lifetime warranty. That's good to hear... I got the KA as a free replacement from KA for the Twister.
I will have to play with the #3 and #4 setting some more.. It was 10 deg out and windy so I did not spend much time playing with it. It just looked to me as if the cut out was indexed so the openings were the most at those 2 settings. But it's hard to really see. Maybe the #4 is to much and for some reason the timing is such that it hits the bolt handle Regardless I like your Gas plug... It's staying in. IF #5 works with a stock spring with Federal bulk and #2 is enough to prevent damage with high power ammo that's a GOOD thing.
Keep us posted on the double stack mags! (drool)
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My wallet is now waiting for the double stack from MD AND the 60 round QUAD stack for my M16A1
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The RIO Slugs and buck will not fit the MD-20 either :-( If only the MD-20 was just a little bit longer...
Any source for cheap buck and slugs that will fit a MD-2? I guess 10 rounds will JUST have to do
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Mike...
Thanks for the Mag "Clips"... See pictures here of my modified AGP Mags: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19834&st=120
Now the AGP will do till the double stack comes out. :-)
When I got the clips from you I was going to order another drum.. but decided to wait for the double stack.
I have noticed the V-Plug for my High Brass needs to be on #3 I do not have ammo that will eject with it on #2.
#1 I feel is just a gas "shut off" for a Red Jacket silencer LOL .. That or for mongo 3" rounds. OUCH
If I screw the gas plug in all the way it will only go to #2 so I used to back it out per the directions to use the fill range... But after playing with it and not having a need for #1 and #2 I just screw it in all the way and use #3 and #5 exclusively. It is easy to keep track.
Also... #3 seems to have more umph than #4.
The "cutouts", to me, both appear to be fully open at #3 and #5. # 4 will not eject my buckshot as well as on #3. This was both ways, fully in (can go to #2-#5), and one turn out, (full range of settings).
I initially was using the Twister, & reduced power spring and your plug as supplied by CSS in the old "low brass reliability kit". But since I put the KA in I do not need the reduced spring for Federal Bulk pack.
I also noticed CSS uses the Gun Fixer gas plug in the "low brass reliability kit" now. What's up with that?
Anyway.. I like the KA and your gas plug. Your Drum it very nice but they won't let me shoot trap with it at my gun club.
FYI I have a TROMIX 4 port.
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Used my KA Tappet while testing my MD spring clip modified AGP mags. I put the stock SAIGA recoil spring back in and was able to cycle low brass just fine with my V-Plug on "+"
KA Tappet still would shake loose in the gas tube after 30 rounds. I am glad I exchanged the Twister for it.
THANK YOU King Armory!
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I don't know if it was just my 10 round AGP mags that are having this problem or if all Gen 2 AGP mags do this.
The top round flips out VERY easily.. Just a bump taking it out of my range bag and the top shell will pop out flying over the bench...
Take your finger and gently lift up on the front of the shot shell and it will VERY easily lift up and then pivot, the spring pressure then pops it out.
My other mags do not do this. The surefire plastic lip mags hold tight.. and the OEM 5 round with the spring steel clip lips hold very tight and the MD-20 drum holds it even tighter.
In one of the videos in the drum wars, the bad co shows this problem in the other co drum. (it was not representative of the MD-20 drum so it had been modified) But... anyway.. The vid clip shows the problem I am having with the AGP mags. (My Md-20 drum is perrrrrrrrrrrfect and holds the top round very tight)
I called and asked if they had a different batch of spring clips, or feed lips... what ever you call it.. Nope apparently they had not changed from gen 1 to gen 2. I have not seen a gen 1 so I have no clue what the differences are..
Knowing that my MD-20 drum and OEM 5 round mags DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM I took the spring off the Saiga mag and it fit on the AGP and was better..But still the back of the mag pushed the shot shell farther forward so it does not rest on the lips correctly.
I called MD and they sold me 5 clips Now the MD clips are not to OEM spec They are thicker and a little taller. But I could make it work. Some time with a bastard file, a dremel, pair of pliers, and my bench vise and I was all set.
After getting my 5 clips I modified them to fit on the AGP mags I had to remove material in the back area under the mag catch so it would slide forward enough to pop over the nubs.
I also had to bend the tip with the hole for the nub in a little so it would angle in as the clip is slightly narrower so the holes would angle out a little.
The springs being thicker would be tighter in the magwell so I used the dremel to remove some material at the bottom edge and the top edge above the hole back to the lip. I just "broke" the edge removing the 90 deg making it a 45 deg. This helped the mag seat as you rock it back. It woudl not catch on the sharp edge of the wider spring clip.
After an hour or 2 I managed to rework the 4 MD-20 Drum clips to fit the AGP mags. I bought.
If anyone else is having this problem this is a $29 fix for the 5 springs (one extra)
Problem SOLVED! No longer do the top rounds flip out and fly all over. Still not as tight as the OEM and MD-20 holds them but a WHOLE LOT better.
Once I figured out what needed to be modified on the MD clips ti was not hard to re-work them. I have kept the AGP springs just in case the MD springs do not stay on or if there is a problem but I thing AGP should fix this. It is unacceptable IMHO.
The brass does not rest on the lips correctly and the length of the contact area is shorter on the AGP clips contributing to the problem.
SureFire mag .. Note contact point on High Brass.
Modified AGP Mag with MD-20 Drum clip note contact point and fit of clip to shot shell brass
Rear view showing modified clip
First modified clip a little messy but works well
Second clip cleaner now that I know where and what to remove
Note the difference between the two clips AGP on left MD clip on right
Now that I have re-worked the AGP mags I am happy .. I really like every thing about them besides the loose top round problem.. With that fixed I now have the 10 round mags I expected. With a little time and effort you can really improve your AGP mags to have the same retention the OEM and MD-20 drum have.
AGP could easily make a few changes to make their mags 100%.
Thanks to MD for selling me the clips.
Edit to add Range Report: MD clips on the AGP Mags function flawlessly. I shot low brass, high brass and RIO buckshot. All fed just fine. (with different gas plug settings) Well worth the time.. No more shot shells flipping out of my mags.
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I just received my replacement tappet from KA for the twister I sent in for the exchange KA is offering.. They have my business and I will support them when I can.
I wonder if KA will do some precision measurements of the returns and publish the results on their site? I also wonder how many returns they got, and how many provided detailed 1st hand experience of how the twister performed in their guns.
I installed it and was impressed by the initial quality. It has a very nice finish. I have yet to shoot it. I HAVE put the factory recoil spring back in and will bring the reduced power low brass spring with me to the range when I finally dig out form the blizzard.
It will be interesting to see if my gun will cycle low brass with the stock spring. It will also be interesting to see how hard it will be to remove the KA tappet to clean after 50-75 rounds. If I don't have to beat it out with a hammer then the question is answered.
I still find it hard to believe the Twisters are mushrooming.
The KA measures the same as the OEM but is .1oz lighter. OEM =1.3 oz and the KA = 1.2 oz on my electric post office scale.
Having 3 = contact "bands" with wider than OEM leading band may prevent as much gas from passing by it. The grooves are slightly smaller yielding more total surface area to contact to the walls of the gas tube. In addition the leading edge of the KA tappet is sharp not rounded which I also expect helps seal the gas. All just speculation on my part.
I look forward to testing it.
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He wants to shoot it.. I take it that means yes!
Really, I hate you. My Sheriff said no and would not even give any reason, good or bullshit, for not signing for an eligible law abiding citizen. I had to go the trust route. It has a few advantages that you may want to consider (like who gets your shit when you kick off). I almost want to email my sheriff pics of my shit just to be an ass. Maybe some video would really piss him off....
Did I mention the fact that I can't wait to vote for our NEW sheriff. Ain't it a bitch?
ETA: If you need any help getting your shit together or filling out the paperwork, PM me and I'll help you out.
Have you thought about creating a trust? I have one and keep all my NFA items in it. You do not need CLEO sign off on your form 4, form 1, Form 5 etc. for a trust.
My CLEO will sign but I prefer to not have everyone at the PD know what I have... Also it saves time in not having to get the sign-off and print card. A trust bypasses Probate and will help to tansfer your goodies faster when you die. Might be worth looking into.
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Mine were to wide to fit and needed a bunch of sanding to fit.. The only part was the front by the pivot. I used a rough nail file to sand just the area needed to make them fit. I left them still with a slight amount of drag which over time has worn in.
This was the recent package deal of pre assembled mags. I do not mind fitting them. Like the MD drum I would rather have it fit right than be sloppy.
My SureFire mags needed no fitting.. I also wish the AGP mags had the same metal clip as the MD drum or OEM mag. The top round pops out very easy. The bearing surface on the AGP's I got is shorter than the OEM and MD metal clip. This lets the top round lift up and pop out very easily. I am not to pleased about this at all. I hope MD will sell me clips so I can put them on the AGP mags. AGP should get a different clip IMHO. I have had loaded mags loose 3 rounds before I loaded them into my shotgun. Loose in my range bag they can pop out.. and if you bump the shot shell as you take it out of the bag/pouch it will pop out.
Other than the clip issue I like them.
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I just recently purchased a TROMIX Saiga-12 and ordered the "low brass reliability kit" from Carolina Shooter Supply. I took the OEM tappet out and replaced it with the Twister tappet, lighter spring, and V-Plug. I then lightly polished the bolt and cleaned up the internals.
After sighting in my FastFire II and figuring out the gas plug positions needed to cycle all the different types of ammo I stumbled across this thread.
I shot only between 50 and 75 rounds doing this.
After reading this thread I figured I should probably inspect my tappet to see what all the fuss was about. I mean it's impossible for it to deform. It looked very nice and was a solid piece of SS.
I unscrewed my V-plug and then inspected my ports. I have 4. I checked them and cleaned them.. Then took a wire brush and cleaned the debris and walls of the gas tube that had accumulated in the area in front of the Twister tappet.
I then took a aluminum arrow that has no point or nock to use it to tap the tappet. Tried a few taps with my hand with the SAIGA on the table and no luck . So I got a small hammer and rapped on the arrow with the muzzle now on the carpet still nothing Now a few good hits and STILL NOTHING! No luck.
The Twister tappet was stuck with only 50-75 rounds fired.
All I could think was I have screwed up my brand new TROMIX
Time for a bigger hammer and a stronger drift. Found a larger wood dowel .. Got some steel wool and scrubbed the gas tube again... I also got out my 12g shotgun brush on a cut cleaning rod which I use on my cordless drill for cleaning my silencer tube which leads up.... I got the gas tube completely clean and STILL the tappet woudl not come out..
I had to drive it as far forward as it would go... then drive it back in, then drive it back forward .. Each time gettign it a little farther forward. CAN CLEANING THE TAPPET BE THIS HARD ALL THE TIME??? I was really glad I read this thread and caught it before it got even worse... It finally popped out... This took me quite a while. I do not like using force on my firearms. I suppose if I had given it some real healthy SMACKS with the heavy dowel and my bigger hammer it may have come out a little sooner. But still this was very surprising.
Inspection showed the tappet was compleatly filled with debris. Lead mostly. The tappet showed wear marks in 3 places. 1 a ring at the very base. 2 another wear ring at the leading edge of the bottom by the groove and lastly wear marks at the leading edges of the cutouts. This wear ring was wider than the 2 at the bottom of the tappet.
The inside of the gas tube was not healthy looking. I took the shot gun brush on the cordless drill and buffed the score marks using the brush and some steel wool. I did not enlarge the tube but just cleaned up/buffed the scuff/score marks on the ID of the tube.
The factory tappet fell in while the Twister was still to tight for me to drop in. I did not want to get it stuck again so I did not press it back in. The Twister did not look mushroomed at all. It also measured as round. I do not understand why it was this stuck. I do not recall it being this hard to put in originally
After dropping in the OEM tappet and closing it up the tappet will click back and forth in the gas tube. Obviously the Twister would not because it is so tight.
I sent it in to King Armory for the exchange. It will be interesting to see if I still need the same settings I use on the V-Plug to eject HP ammo and if there is increased ejection of Federal 100 pack low brass. On "+" it was JUST enough to eject. I needed setting #3 to eject Slugs which I found VERY surprising using the lower powered recoil spring when using the Twister tappet.
Being a noob at Saigas I don't know what normal is.. All I can do is report my findings. Maybe the OEM will be easier to take in and out because it has a sloppier fit. Maybe the groves are not helping by causing more area for the accumulation of debris. Not only do you have the single ring you have the cutouts to fill and cause additional drag. Much more surface area for lead/plastic/powder fouling to drag on the ID of the gas tube.
I will know more when I put in the KA tappet. If it ejects the low brass with more authority and needs less gas to eject slugs I will know. Hopefully the KA tappet will not get stuck so routine cleaning will be easier.
I did not find the claim of being able to go 100s of rounds before needing cleaning to be true as only 50-75 rounds caused this amount of trouble.
If it mushroomed it did so w/o looking like it since the base was not wider than the leading edge of the groove. No way did the base increase in dia in 2 places and not in the middle of the bottom "band" as well. All I can figure is the tappet is just to large from the get go. I can not explain the wear pattern skuff marks on the inside of the tube.. Maybe the points on the Twister are causing them. The tappet would have to cant to do that.. With it this tight in the tube you would think that is impossible.
My concern was that the combination of a low power spring and a better gas plug would over gas the gun. Since I needed #3 to cycle and eject full power buck and slugs that was unfounded. #1 was like a gas shut off. #2 would almost eject high brass, #3 would reliably eject all my high brass ammo. The highest gas setting of "+" (#5) would JUST work with the Federal low brass ammo. I felt it could use a little more umph. With the lighter spring I expect it to cycle the Winchester 1 oz loads and the federal with a little more authority.
I bought 100 to see. I am just waiting for the KA tappet to arrive to see how much difference there is between it and the Twister. I am not saying the Twister is "Bad" I am just reporting my findings.. The KA and OEM tappets may be the same... Time will tell.
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Mailed my last From 4 in on Nov 23rd
Was on the phone with the BATF&E discussing removing a registry item and asked how my From 4 was doing as it was not even pending yet when I called last... I Was told it was approved today 12/30.
Blew me away... I expected it mid to late Feb -
I also believe Tony wields the mag catch/release pin in place.
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I too am new to the Saiga madness. I am envious of your trip to MD.
Range report?
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My drum fit with a slight amount of fitting which surprised me as most mags need to be narrowed some..
My mag port is narrow. It has a step in it which makes it tight at the muzzle end of the opening. I have smoothed it and opened it a little with a stone and file as the sides were not parallel. I left the step but mad it even and smoothed the edges.
I like my Drum to be snug and I like to do the fitting. My mags I like to only have a slight amount of friction. all of my AGP's needed significant narrowing at only the muzzle end of the magazine but NO A or B fitting other than flashing being removed. I found that odd.
I just take a nail file and touch up/smooth the flashing marks.
It's hard to ADD material... It was easy to remove it.
My vote is to keep it snug rather than loose.
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I have a Polychoke with the door breach. It has wider vents ten the std.. I really don't get a lot of crap in it. A soft brush works OK.. For stubborn stuff (none yet) a brass brush should work.. Don;t sweat it at least you can adjust your pattern.
I took off my Shark brake the polychoke is a lot lighter and I wanted to be able to shoot clays too.
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LOL I did not even notice it! WEIRD!!!!
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I have a MD V Plug and the lighter recoil spring and I can shoot low brass Meg-a-low-Mart Federal (and hopefully the Winchester stuff too...)
However ... the TAC47 auto plug really does interest me.
The MD-V plug is working so I will just keep playing with it till I feel comfortable with the settings and what they do or don't do.
Maybe if I could try one, or look at a blueprint so I know how it works. Does it need to be cleaned? Chance of failure? Can anything in it break.. Moving parts?
POLL: Surefire VS AGP
in Saiga-12
Posted · Edited by JohnInNH
I think MD wanted $5 each..
I had to lower the back of the clip so the catch in the back would fit in the groove. The back of the clips is a little wider on the MD clips. Place on hard surface.. Use a large BASTARD metal file.. Then behind the lips lower the top part that fits under the protrusion that the mag rel clips under. It does not take a lot.remove only about 1-2 match book cover thicknesses.
Then you may need to remove a little material in front of the lips to get them to seat forward enough to engage the nubs into the holes of the clips.
I describe it a little in the post with the pictures. The springs are thicker so I also broke the edges with a 45deg as a precaution, a touch of the drumel as the sharp edge could catch while inserting the mags.
Also a *slight* bend of the tips with the holes was added in them helped to get them to clip over the nubs. Just enough to get the holes flat on the mags.