TJohn
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Posts posted by TJohn
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On mine I had to notch the front lip of the Surefire mag and my factory Saiga mags (to look like an AK surplus mag) after conversion and installation of the bullet guide, in order for them to work/lock in the rifle. If you are careful of your placement of the bullet guide you might be able to get away without notching the mag front (seems like I have seen some report this, but not sure if it was on the .223's or a different caliber).
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... The sleeve does not slide through outside of the rifle, I am sorry if that wasn't clear. The sleeve will slide through both the disconnector and the trigger when the two are not connected. As soon as I assemble the mechanism, the sleeve will slide 2/3 of the way through, but not through the second trigger hole. I honestly think the G2 I got is defective, as the issues I am experiencing are not any I have seen mentioned elsewhere.
Perhaps I missed something, I dont know if I am I understanding you right. Are you not assembling the trigger, disconnector and sleeve before you drop it in the rifle, or are you saying that they won't line up to be assembled?
The trigger group should look like the middle picture under part 3 of this instruction set, before you drop it into the rifle: http://www.tapco.com...nstructions.pdf. You may have to push down on the disconnecter to get the sleeve through. If you cant get it assembled to look like that middle picture in part 3, it may very well be out of spec.
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It sounds like most of you guys who fitted the Circle 10 mags did NOT remove the interdiction tab, but just remove material from the mag. Is this the case?
Could anyone post pics of the mags, and where the filing was done?
This shows where I filed my Circle 10 mags, see figure A in the link listed.
If you scroll down the page "Fig A" shows the only part of the Bulgarian Circl 10's that I mess with after I have filed/dremeled the mag catch and the very rear of the mag well on the .223 rifle.
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DiminishTX, how much wobble do the mags have? Is it front to back wobble, or side to side? I dont think the side to side wobble is as crucial an issue as the wobble from front to back as that changes the feed angle of the ammo. A little wobble won't hurt anything, these rifles are designed to have looser tolerances, if the mag still functions, in fact I think it may be fairly common. I don't think there is any way to file the mag catch to keep every mag from wobbling at all, too much variance between different manufacturers and even between magazines from the same manufacturers. Mags lock up tighter in my converted Saiga 7.62 than they do in my Arsenal 7.62, but I have mags that will wobble in both and still function just fine. The mags aren't going to lock up like an AR or Mini 14 for that matter.
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... Another issue I had is with my Tapco G2 (single hook,) when I went to assemble it,roll pin would not glide through. I have tried sliding it through the trigger holes alone, as well as just the disconnect, the problem arises when I put them both together. It almost appears as the the roll pin is going in at a slight angle. Is this my error or did I get a lemon that I need to send back?
If it fits through fine while out of the rifle then you may need to wiggle it around some or push down on it with your fingers when installing the pin. If that doesnt work try swapping the two pins around. I kinda had that issue with my .308 conversion and the pin swap worked for me, didnt think the trigger was going to install (no problems on the .223, 5.45 or 7.62 conversions however). Sometimes you just have to walk off for a bit and take a break and come back and try it again when you are less aggravated, lol.
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Here is the trigger guard I purchased: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-365/Saiga-Trigger-Guard-DIY/Detail I apologize for saying "exact," I was thinking of "works perfect," which is definitely different. Which of the rivet holes do you recommend elongating? Also, have you ever heard of the problem I am describing with the G2?
Seems like there was another post recently on this issue. If I am understanding your problem right, i.e., the trigger guard holes dont line up with the rivet holes on the receiver, correct? Install the screw next to the mag latch first, then you should be able to pull the trigger guard enough with your fingers to get the rear screw through the hole. A couple of the conversions I did were tighter in this respect..
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I just tried to keep the same profile that the catch had before I began dremeling/filing. Keep trying a mag or two or three every so often to check their fit and function, it helps reduce the risk of removing too much material. Not every mag is going to fit tight with no wobble, as there are variances between mags from the some manufacturer and country of origin and many mags will work just fine with some wobble. If it is a 7.62x39 use a steel or polymer surplus mag for the fitting, because if you use a US made mag you may very well make the fit too loose for your liking if you switch to surplus mags later. You really shouldn't have to remove more than 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch from the mag catch, at most.
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I have not had any problems with either Tapcos or modded Surefires, but I haven't tried to overly abuse them either.
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Here is an observation I have made with respect to Circle 10 mags perhaps worthy of note. I think I have 6 of them, all brand new in package from same vendor. 5 of the mag catches were exactly identical with one having a different factory bevel, and those 5 required only minor dremel work on the front of the mags. I find it best to field strip and try to insert in a well lit area and locate the areas that are preventing insertion. An angled dental pick is helpful.
On magazine number 6 (the one with the different bevel on the mag catch) no amount of grinding on the front would have allowed it to fit. Lucky for me, I noticed this before unnecessarily grinding on the front. At that point I ground the catch to mimic the bevel of the other 5 and all was well. The trick is to go slow and look carefully because it is difficult to "undo" too much grinding. I definately prefer altering the mags as opposed to grinding anything on the rifle. If I only had one magazine and 6 rifles maybe I'd think otherwise; but I don't.
I have had good luck with the Bulgarian Circle 10 mags in .223 so far (the 20 round clear/smoke looking ones). I have a dozen, six each from two different vendors and the mag catches are fairly uninform with no real differences. I will usually try at least two or three different mags while dremeling/filing the mag catch just due to variances in the mags, because if you just try to fit to one mag, then others mags may not click in properly or be way too loose and affect function.
Field stripping the rifle and watching from the open receiver is a good idea as I did do some excessive filing on the rear of a couple of mags before I realized what part of the rifle was binding the mags (I had seen other tutorials on different forums showing that, but it wasnt necessary in my experience.). Fortunately I didn't affect the fit or function of the mags though, they just look a little different now.
I know you can occaisionally get an out of spec mag, as I had a surplus 5.45 mag that wouldn't start to go into the magwell on a 5.45 Saiga while a dozen others fit fine, but with respect to the .223 Bulgarian Circle 10's I have seen the quality has been pretty uniform.
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If you scroll down the page "Fig A" shows the only part of the Bulgarian Circl 10's that I mess with after I have filed/dremeled the mag catch and the very rear of the mag well on the .223 rifle.
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The safety issue just affects some .308's for some reason, I did not have to modify my safey and everything works fine. I am not sure if the original retaining spring will work without modifications or if it needs modified to work, as I used a Tromix spring in my .308 conversion.
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The retaining plate takes the place of the shepherds hook/crook/retaining spring that holds your trigger group in place. It fits down inside the receiver on the left side. When I did my .308 conversion, the retaining plate I ordered was going to require fitting, so I wound up using a Tromix retaining spring and it has worked fine ( this is what I used: http://store.carolin...SHEPERDS/Detail). I used retaining plates in my 7.62, .223 and 5.45 conversions and they worked great with no fitting required. You may be able to reuse your original retaining spring, I don't know, the retaining plate is much easier if it fits.
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Same issue with Polish Beryl mags. IMO I would still rather modify the mag than the rifle. If Izhmash machined the .223 trunnions with more material on the locking lugs than others, then I'm going to assume that there was a reason why, and it may have to do with handling additional pressure from hotter 5.56 NATO loads.
Calling the locking lugs "trunnion ears" suggests that the poster does not know what he's talking about, and therefore I am inclined not to trust his judgement regarding firearms modification.
Filing the small feed lip area of the mag that slips under the trunnion will take you about 10 mins max per mag. It will still fit fine in other rifles, since this is not where retention pressure is applied when the mag is latched in.
edit: sorry if I'm going against all those who have installed AR mag adapters, but personally I'm not comfortable modifying locking lugs even if everything works well afterwards. If you have to remove a serious amount of material, you ARE weakening the lugs.
I thought briefly about modding the mags, but I have other rifles that work just fine with circle 10 mags. I have also already tried a friends "modded" mags(3 of them) which had a little taken off the front of the magwell and a little taken off the rear latch area and yes there was a bit of mag wobble in my bulgarian rifle while it did fit pretty decently in my saiga. The front of the mag isn't the only place that needs trimmed. The rear of the saiga magwell also has a little tab that sticks out a few hundredths of an inch.
So I wasn't too inclined to mod 15+ mags that already work very well in two other rifles that I own, and soon to be 4 more pistols to that group.
My bad on the grammar. Posted that in my passing one afternoon on my way to clinicals. Trust me, I wouldn't have made the mod if I didn't think it was 100% safe. Thousands upon thousands of Bulgarian 5.56 guns all seem to be doing well without the several hundredths of an inch that were taken off the bottom of the locking lugs and rear of the magwell of the receiver. Currently the gun has over 500 rounds down the tube with no signs of stress or wear and has become my favorite rifle to shoot so I am sure that number will grow fast.
EDIT. I also tend to shoot A LOT of 5.56 rounds through my rifles, which gives them a bit more stress than the average person who sticks to steel cased ammo. There is between 450-500 rounds of xm193f, m193, xm855 and m855 with around 50-100 rounds of silver bear. I guess time will tell.
I slighty dremeled the mag catch and rear of the mag well on my Saiga .223, so I only had to slightly dremel the front top of the front lips on the Circle 10 mags. I did not, and never mess with the rear lug of the mag and they lock up tight with little or no wobble and would probably still work with your other rifles that way. Absolutely no need to mess with the rear lug on the Circle 10 mags if you take a slight bit off the rear of the Saiga .223 magwell. I don't have anything but Saiga rifles so I cant test them on anything else, but they should still work in other rifles. Other than the one time mod to the rifle, I would say this mod doesn't take over a couple minutes each to make the mags fit. Just dremel the bumps on the very front of the mag lips an test fit till it snaps in.
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.....am i the only one who has this consistently happen with tapco mags?
I have six 20 round Tapco's in 7.62 and six 30 round 5.45's and haven't experienced it yet. I leave two or three of each loaded for extended periods maybe a few months to almost 2 years on some (only unloaded when I go shooting and happen to grab them rather than the surplus mags) and have yet to have any problems with them. I have always been concerned about the non-reinforced mag catches breaking but haven't experienced that yet either. That said, I will take surplus mags (steel or polymer) over them any day.
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I just used a dremel with a tungsten carbide bit and held it at a 90 degree angle to the the mag catch. I would take a little off, then check with a couple or three different mags. You know your close when you hear the click when the mag snaps in. If the mag catch is hard to push to remove a mag, despite clicking when the mag was inserted, I would take a slight bit more off, and all was good. I compared the space between the mag catch and the receiver on my 7.62 Saiga to my Arsenal 7.62, and the Arsenal allows a little more play with the mags as the catch is slightly shorter where it engages the mag. I also just watched the angle of the mag catch itself when the mags were inserted. Don't know if that helps you any, but that was my experience.
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As long as it doesn't interfere with proper feeding and function of the rifle, it should be just fine. It is normal for there to be some wobble. You will probably notice that certain mags may fit with less wobble even among surplus mags from the various Eastern Bloc countries.
I don't really think that it needs fixed but you could replace the mag catch with a slightly longer one and it may take care of some of the wobble.
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Maybe get some paracord from army surplus or something and rig up one, or if you got a Wal-mart nearby you can get one of those $6.00 spongy slings if you don't care about it not looking right on an AK, but really the surplus slings everyone is mentioning above are hard to beat both for durability and looks, well worth the extra money in my opinion. I just recently outfitted all my Saigas with the surplus slings, and they are great, no regrets, lol. Sometimes it is better to spend a little money on stuff that is decent quality than to try to cut corners and save, just to have to replace it sooner because it didn't work out or last.
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....Also... i cant tell if it is the 20aame inch.. im bringing a measuring tape before i pick it up.. if it turns out to be a 16in. Should that be a dealbreaker. Or is the velocity increase nominal to tje point where barrel length is cosmetic
If your shooting at around 125 yards as stated in your initial post it should not be enough difference to notice.
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I'm considering a Saiga .223 for coyote hunting. What kind of accuracy can I expect with the 16 inch barrel at shots out to 200 yards?
If you do your job the Saiga .223 should be more than capable of taking a coyote out to 200 yards.
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I would love to use my circle 10 mags but i do not want to alter them. The Israeli orlites run 100%. Maybe I will sacrifice one of my clear Cirle 10 and try it.
The very front corners of the front mag lip is all I had to modify on my clear 20 round Circle 10's to make them fit in my .223 Saiga. Of course I did file/dremel the mag catch on the rifle and rear of the mag well slighty. The Circle 10's lock up tight.
I had initially took some off the rear of the feed lips on a couple of the mags based on some tutorial I had seen somewhere, but it is not necessary with the Circle 10's, basically just take the little bumps down in on the top at the front of the feed lips. Basically where the arrow is pointing in Figure A in this .223 mag discussion on Dinzig's web site: http://www.dinzagarm...mag_options.pdf.
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It seems that there is a lot of different and/or conflicting information on the web about these conversions. Carolina Shooters Supply shows that I will need to grind some material off the safety when I install the new trigger. Is that correct or is that only for the shotguns? It also says that I may have to take some off the side of the hammer in order for it to fit in the receive and move freely. Is that also something I will need to do?
Thanks again for all the help and tips. I have worked on cars and motorcycles in the past but I have never torn into a firearm like this. Feeling a little intimidated.
Mine is a 2009 .308 Saiga and I did not have to mess with the safetywhen I did my conversion on it. Everything went back together ok.. I thought that was more of a problem with the older production .308's but I could be wrong on that, but I haven't seen that issue come up that much in a whle..
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... To summarize, if you use any magazine larger than 10 rounds, and you have not done some major work (essentially a full conversion + some oher stuff) on your Saiga "sport" gun, you are in violation of 922R, regardless of the source of the extra large magazine....
I wouldn't say major work, a simple buttstock, pistol grip and trigger group conversion will get you down to 10 foreign parts (counting the surplus mag as 3 parts), assuming you use all US made parts, without having to touch the foregrip or muzzle of the rifle, allowing you to use surplus mags.
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I read somewhere else that if you want to continue using "standard" Saiga magazines after intalling the shim.you need to mod the front of the mag to be shorter!
True you just have to match the front profile of the Saiga mag to that of the surplus mag, however some people have reported that they could use Saiga mags without modification after installing the bullet guide (think it depends how far into the receiver that the bullet guide sticks out once it is installed). I had to modify my factory mags to work after installing my bullet guides.
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I ground the tack welds with a dremel on my .308, I thought the sporter plate was tougher to gett off on the .308 than any of the other calibers that I did ( just seemed that the .223, 5.45 and 7.62 sporter plates were easier to remove). Look inside the receiver and see if you can get hold of the shepherds crook/retaining spring with a pair of needle nose pliers. It should be on the left side of the receiver when looking in form the buttstock end, it should come right out considering you have one of the pins that far out already. You want to save these two pins because you will reuse them.
A few more questions
in Saiga 5.45
Posted
Can't help you with the muzzle device, but Tapco mags are ok. I prefer the 5.45 surplus mags if I can find them, as they have steel support in the feed lips and mag catches, whereas the Tapco's are all plastic in those areas. That said, I have both Tapco's and surplus mags, and I haven't experienced a broken Tapco mag yet.