whatmanual
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Posts posted by whatmanual
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Congrats on the new Tromix. Welcome to the club.
Just a side note on the 1" pull. You could get a Remmington recoil pad (screw on type).
But its real important to test it out with your gear 1st. Wear your harness/rig and check the fit. I sometimes wear my Interceptor and its that extra inch.
In any case, vest/gear/rig items are definitely something to consider before you start thinking "NATO length" this or that.
Winter is upon us. Check it with the thick coat yet?
~S
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+1
LOL... I have that as well now. I attached a red "REMOVE BEFORE FIGHT" flag to the pull pin.
I used to place it on the barrel of my AK or whatever, but the liked this idea so much I moved it to the pull pin. It's a much better spot for it.
(Its just a standard "remove before flight" flag seen on most aircraft. I stitched up the flag to remove the "L". Makes great range conversation).
~S
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Marty: It's a..key?
Jack Sparrow: NO! Much more better. It's a DRAWING of a key!
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Here is my favorate, Eric and another guy are compairing scores, the guy says "not too bad only 30 seconds behind an open gun", Eric said, "your a cop and I'm a 15 year old kid"
HAHAHAHAHAH~!!!
ok back to the topic...
Tony,
How much is the cheek piece by itself? I was thinking of getting one of those and mounting it on my tromix folder.
~Steve
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Welcome to the club
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I'll take #3)TDI AK lower and upper railed handguards.Fits nearly all stamped receivers--$50.00 shipped
PM to be sent in a moment...
~S
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2 points....
1) you REALLY need an ammo pouch
2) 40
Good video though. Clear and explained your keypoints (unlike others that simply blow off rounds)
No jams for 7 1/2 birdshot ...I'll have to revisit Remington again when I go light loads
~Semper Fi
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..... Bragging rights in self defense will land you in jail and in a lawsuit by the surviving family. JMHO
1911
Marine here as well. In Ohio there's differences in law for self defense -depending on the location.
In fact, Ohio law: 2305.40 Owner, lessee, or renter of real property not liable to trespasser.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2305.40
In particular section C, 2.
I try to know my rights and laws to the best of my "reasonable" ability. If/when a home invader's family wants to take me to court, they'll lose -Even if I'm mistaken. Nice touch. I completely agree that ANY self-defense situation is certainly nothing to brag about. I find it childish and naive to the seriousness of consequence. Of course, location and circumstance make all the difference in the world.
But the end result is simple (and phrase you should memorize): You stopped a threat.
The complicated part would be: did you have the dedication and respect "to yourself" to get educated on what is right and wrong...what is legal or not.
It's important to follow the rules while having fun shooting at the range or events. Its important to develop proficiency in your firearms as well. But it's most important to know the responsibilities and laws for the other 98% of the time you have to hold that gun in your hand -or carry it around. What I am saying is that the comments like above "might" cause someone to pause at the wrong moment. A person who knows the facts from looking up the current laws, or asking local law enforcement on scenarios (for their particular juristiction) -has a better chance at truly defending their life -without second guessing.
I also completely agree that you are liable for wherever that bullet goes the moment it leaves the barrel. If it over penetrates or missed (shame on you) and hits someone else or property, it's on you. Stopping a threat is one thing, spray and pray suppressive fire is another. Granted, that part all depends on the scenario as well...just one burglar? Or 4 gang members jumping armed out of the car you just rear ended? etc etc. In the end, YOUR education and training will decide how you should act...just as the law will use their education and training to either prosecute or release you.
Taking professional training courses -Military, Law, or Civilian can be a good thing. Many people don't expect or see skipping rounds as an option...then again, there may come a time where its deemed the best option. I guess on topics like this, I'm of the opinion that the better trained a person is -the more likely they are to not be a loose cannon. An example would be like Concealed Weapon holders being and extremely low risk (according to statistics) of any gun owners to be a criminal in self defense. Then again, nobody know's how they will act until they have to act. You're mileage may vary.
Then again, the topic was "Tactical Response Fighting Shotgun with a Saiga 12" and not home/self-defense.
To me, they're 2 different topics...with different legal or life consequences.
~S
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(sorry for posting in this forum if it should be elsewhere. Its just where I post most often. Move if needed).
Well, heard they're at it again. If the McCarthy bill wasnt bad enough (just the 1st step as I was reading), as soon as they (Congress) comes back from their recess, one of the 1st things on the agenda is to debate this:
HR 2640 (interesting is the "troubling questions go unanswered" link and the "Senate ready to move on gun control" link.
http://www.gunowners.org/netb.htm
Here's the summary:
http://www.gunowners.org/ne0701.htm
Essentially, read the summary on the 2nd link there. If that passes it will be chilling to the core. Have medication prescribed to kids because of some school nurse saying the child was "hyper"? Oh well, they grow up and cannot defend themselves. Have to get counseling in the future to resolve stresses that happened in Iraq or violent crime or perhaps a car crash? You could just lose your rights to own any protection for the family.
Heck, having to declare bankruptcy in the future (or past) might just qualify as unable to manage your life I think (although not assiciated with the mental aspects of the bill....but still, the bill is obscure).
Its one thing to take away weapons from criminals (rapists/violent crime felons), I agree with those "obvious" laws. Any reasonable and prudent person can understand things like that. Its the "You might" laws, or laws that dig through "looking for dirt" (excuse to take away a right) that are the most annoying things to me.
All it would take is a quota (which I heard was proposed as well concerning this) and a corrupt psychiatrist or psychologist to say "I don't like the way you think". Thought police, how nice.
Some people will end up losing their rights because of simply having to take Ritalin without choice -let alone poor diagnosis. "Obviously" that's what being a bad 5 year old deserves. They should've thought of that before they threw that tantrum in school or mall !
This HR2640 proposal is tyranny in the making. It's unconstitutional. Its sad.
Whether you exercise or believe in the 2nd Amendment or not, its your right to choose how to live your life. Its your right to be able to protect yourself -or not. Some people will probably end up dying over this one if it passes.
Take it with a grain of salt...not wanting to start a heated debate about beliefs. Just passing out the info (and opinion) to friends I feel need to know this info. You know who you are and who is at risk.
(again, move to correct forum as you decide... fine either way).
~Steve
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Not positive but I think the US one is made from stainless steel?
Might mean smoother action and/or easier cleaning (less fouling perhaps to degrade performance).
Then again, not sure how stainless would react with the temperatures in there....might swell up and seize until it cools down? Not positive at all how it would perform really. Need someone who has one to reply for that.
~S
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I have the one that was just before that (had 3 hex screws to mount instead of the throw lever).
Its low rise, and its "over the bore" (centered and not to the left side like some POSP scopes can be like).
In fact, I'm going to go buy that particular model from somewhere because I know its centered and it will mount my Kobra well. I like the throw lever much better (I modified the old one to be that way). It mounts great of the Saiga plates....but not so secure on the Romanian type plates (they're flatter).
One other thing to note... if you use a folder and it folds to the "LEFT" side of the gun, the hinge will be there. You have more or less 2 choices: cut a small groove into the scope mount lower track (about 1 inch long just forward of the throw arm) so you can mount from the side and slide forward without removing the stock....or remove the stock.
(If it folds to right side you're home free).
I have pics around here about how perfect the Tromix folder will fit into the groove of the left side. Its really a great alternate mount for any POSP scope you have or kobra dot etc (Kalinkaoptics has weaver mount adapters for all the side mounting scopes).
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry132552
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry136284
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Which brings up a great point... the Saiga spring is in "2" sections. The forward section is easy to remove. The rear is a pain.
What about just taking a stock S12 (unfired) and changing the forward spring out depending on the type of shot you know you will be using? If you're just shooting slugs, you could swap out the original front spring with say, a 22 pounder. That way it takes the brunt up front.
Or...(better idea for troubleshooting) ...if the original "set" of springs seem to strong to cycle even whimpy "bird shot" on setting 2, you could replace the forward with a lighter 1911 spring to help it cycle....like a 17 or 18 pounder?
(of course, too light and you might not get the forward force you need. I do know though that 20 or 22 pounders work identical to the originals).
Hmmm... just a random thought and jotting it down.
~S
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How can we forget?
Shark Brake (Tromix) is one of the best conversation pieces on the range.
Its functional to reduce climb and recoil, gives a higher intimidation factor (judging from responses), meant for door breaching rounds, and even gives you a semi-bayonet jab
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Yep...knew that and have done that as well.
20 pounder or 22 pounder will work nicely. The forward spring is easy, but the rear one is a pain since the retainer (for the top cover) that holds the whole assembly together is pretty much permanent. You could "wind" it around and around with some fiddling...but "might need a slight trim to get the exact length and compression "wave" in the spring. But yes, they work just nicely if you somehow trash out a spring *(firing nothing but 00buck and slugs can really beat the rear spring to heck after a 1000 shots or so. Even though its useable, you begin to start wondering about reliability. Hard to describe really but there's a "feel" to the action and look the spring has that clues you to thinking about if its damaged....but the smile is well worth it until then).
you can find springs for less...but...
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...R+RECOIL+SPRING
Personally, I bought mine for 7.89 at my local shop. Your mileage may vary.
But I suggest that is temporary until you can get a real replacement. For the purists out there, always can check with Tantal...
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/
(about 1/4 of the page down are replacement parts).
Also, good gunsmiths like Tony from Tromix that deal with S12 conversions all the time will likely be able to assist with replacement springs.
Food for thought. Good topic
~Steve
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It gave me an INCREDIBLE kick, I still have some open gouges in my shoulder surrounded by black bruises, but its all good. I hope it didnt damage anything on the gun.
+1 (Best comment I've read in a while). Only a true gun lover could make that statement.
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Im in Cincinnati area (Warren County technically near you and Mike). That bill was House Bill 347
Which of course was veto'd the governor ....but then voted on right then and there -and was passed despite his objections -thus became law.
http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bills.cfm?ID=126_HB_347
(Gov. Action Note: Vetoed on 12/07/06; veto overridden in House on 12/07/06 and in Senate on 12/12/06 =Effective law on 3/14/07)
Video:
http://www.oll.state.oh.us/your_government...ession_id=90779
(real player...go to 5 minutes in and watch until just after 8 minutes of the session to see the Gov. get overriden).
http://buckeyefirearms.org/article3397.html
Some other research you can find more about it if you like, I've read it as Mike has many times I'm sure. Mike is correct, that its not for his approval. He must show good cause why you shouldnt have it (prove you're a felon or a danger etc).
The whole idea on this bill is like a "drivers license". What is a common knowledge law (red light means stop) anywhere you go within the "state" should be the same thing for firearms. Many people became "accidental" felons when they transported their firearm in their trunk or glove box or on their person (with CCW permit) and then during their travel would get pulled over in some county or township that had local ordnances that made it a felony for things like that. Around here (Southwest Ohio), you can practically drive around a block or two and wind up in a different township/ city/ county -very quickly.
Anyway, back to the point. Essentially, if he (or any city, village etc) decides to impose their ordnance upon you that is indeed lawful under state law, you can fight it to the state level -where the state will likely say its legal. Best part is that the city/county etc will be responsible for the entire court bill. Citizens certainly don't like 50k here...40k there spent on "frivilous" lawsuits.
(more or less, all of the above and more to get you started is at that link).
>>> Please note that he MUST to set aside "at least" 15 hours a week for this activity*. So, the "I dont have time" excuse is wrong.
(*Granted that was for the Conceal Holder License...not sure if that is "also" for items such as SBS etc. I think it does include that though).
~Steve
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What I do is take it to the indoor range nearby often. Nothing like the pop, pop, pop, ping ping, and then you unload 10x 00buck or slugs. Certainly a head turner. I remember this big guy next to my booth who was instructing his girlfriend how to shoot a glock or something simply say "I almost shit my shorts" after I unloaded a mag (destroying the target).
That is when people often ask about it. Initially its concern that Im shooting a .50 cal in there and it looks like an AK (its a pitsol, shotgun, and non-bottle nose ammunition range). Well of course I tell them its a Saiga 12 -a shotgun.
Jaws drop and sometimes there small comments exhanged like "wow, wall-o-death right there" or whatever. I tell them about the forum.saiga-12.com and also Tromix and AGP arms where I got the mags. I even explain that there's wraithmaker and mdarms drums coming out soon.
I offer (key point) to let them dump a mag of 00 buck from the Tromix. After a quick instruction on action, more than half like to take me up on it and peer down the Kobra sight and squeeze them off. Interesting is the 1, then 2, then 3, then the rest turn out to be at a sustained semi-auto rate as they are not being bucked into oblivion. That's when I see they have the smile ear to ear that tells me they're hooked.
Of course, a great conversation piece of gear is one of my various Zombie T-shirts I tend to wear. People sometimes ask why I own such a gun? Im like "Zombies" (with a matter-of-fact look of course)
~Steve
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I'd be a little paranoid about running a steel on steel dremel bit on a live round. any chance you could spark it and light it into your face? that would make for a bad day.
LOL... no. That was earlier when I was thinking they were 3" in length. They are actually 2.55" (marked 65 on the shell as well).
The point is that the main part of the end cap is set back into the shell casing about 1/4 inch. This leaves no support at the end at all.
My thought was that case length was the issue. I would've used one of the 100 spent shells I have and placed a cap on there to simulate the support it would (should) have. Its either a support issue at the end of the cap to the edge of shell... or a feed angle from the mag that loses the battle with the bolt each time.
Perhaps I'll take one of the live shells and take pics showing step by step exactly the problem with them and let everyone else take a crack at it.
~S
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Sucks for me being a "lefty". -I think Tony is too if I recall.
Even if they could make it eject left side, I've never liked the idea of a round going off right next to my ear.
If I want short, I'll pay the $200 tax/extortion fee for a sbs.
~S
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Probably should've been clearer....
Just looked at the stack of hulls I have from the last box I shot and also my remaining new boxes. The shells are marked "12" and "65" on there with some other marking. In reality they are actually "about" 2.5 inches in length (just pulled a live round and stood it next to my tape measure).
These are the same box as what is currently sold on their website as "2 3/4 in. shells" though.
That is the box I have sitting right in front of me now...pics available.
I was mistaken calling them 3" sells...but the reason is because I know the plug is pushed back in about 1/4 inch (a little over) -and NOT at the end of the shell as the pic on their site would imply. Some hamster in my brain took a break and it made me think they are not full length. I'm used to having either the plug on the end like a cap, or the end crimped. Since the plug was back in there about a 1/4 inch my brain read "yep, 2 3/4 load but must be in a 3" shell" .,...bah. not important.
The main point I was making is that the plug is set back inside the shell, there is virtually no support at the tip area for a 1/4 inch. (regardless of length debates of 3" or 2.75" or mm or whatever). When you try to rack the 1st round into the gun, if its a full or stiff mag, the bolt will crimp the tip of the case and create its own roadblock. Again, size isnt the issue.
I could probably post pics of loading, closeup of the round, closeup of the bolt hitting the shell, and the after effect if you like.
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I bought them initially for being the top round. -Even more so since they are only 7 1/2 shot loads.
Tried it being the top with 9 below... crimped the end when pulling the charge handle back = locked the bolt forward and couldn't get past it.
Tried with 8 = same effect
Tried with 7 = same
Tried with 6 = "tolerable". No crimp/jam (or very minor) and no deform below of course in all cases above (after all, I can load 10 plastics just fine).
What it comes down to on these is simply the 3" length of the shell, but it only used 2 3/4 of it before you see the plastic end cap in there. The length will go all the way to the end of the mag of course and that will always mean the bolt will smash into the casing on its way back.
-add the spring in the mag being moderately strong (as it should be) and its a combo like a "half-way filled cigarette" (main body would be fine..but the end has no support and gets crushed before it can transfer that pressure to move the rounds down into your mag).
I'll try to dremmel down a few rounds to 2 3/4. I think the shorter length combined with having everything that does remain being "packed" will remove that issue.
~S
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Dont be so fast....
I went up to AimSurplus (just up the road from me) and bought 20 boxes of their steel case ammo (currently its just the 7 1/2 bird shot).
Although it certainly will not deform while sitting in the AGP mag I found an issue that I'm not happy about. The plastic "plug" that holds it all in the case is set back about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch from the end of the end (these are 3 inch shells).
1) In a full AGP mag, its difficult to load them into the gun. There's no give at all (no shit, its steel) and again, these are the 3" shells.
2) The worst problem is that because the shell itself doesnt have the support -from the plug to the end of the shell, it will "CRIMP" the shell when you try to cycle the bolt back. Essentially, if you have 10 rounds the bolt will dig into, crimp, and virtually feel like its locked up (ruins the top shell from chambering too since its crimped pretty good).
~From about 7 rounds or less it cycles and feeds just fine because when the bolt goes back it "pushes" down the rounds into the mag. So long as your mags are clean and do not have problems feeding up you should have no problem.
Looking at the 3" shell and seeing the space from the plug to the end, I could dremmel off the end of the case and make them 2 3/4 with no problems at all. That might reduce the length enough so the bolt won't crimp the shell as it goes back.
Summary: If I buy Russian steel ammo again for the S12, it will be either 2 3/4 or probably not at all.
~Steve
Showing off mods to my S12
in Saiga-12
Posted · Edited by whatmanual
Im a lefty too. Can I see some better pictures angles of the BHO hold/release setup(less blur too)? Also while mounted?
Interested in this mod.